EMBN take on electric motors.

[JonasH]

Hi,

After seeing this show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2CJaIM9Uzc) I was under the impression that Brose with 90Nm and others with that high account of torque was super strong. I previously thought that Bosch was the "strongest". Anyone with hands-on experience on the different motors care to give scores/rate these different properties: I know there are tests and reviews of these out there, but I’m more interested in your personal opinions. I'm a engineer so i don't need a lesson on tourqe and watts.

I wish there would be a neutral lab test with curves and charts comparing the different motors for both torque/power/Cadence/input sensitivity etc. but I have not seen such a test yet.​

1. climbing capabilities
   1. Singletrack
   2. Gravel road
2. Natural feel on "flat" singletrack
3. Decoupling over 25km/h
   1. the "sensation" when you pass the speed limit descending on a singletrack
   2. flat road or descending road

And yes, I have read this article http://ebike-mtb.com/en/the-best-emtb-motor/​

​

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I am riding a Bosch CX today or tomorrow on a Moustache Samedi Race 9 so will be able to compare it to my Brose 1.3 motor.

It won’t be scientific at all more like a Rob special ‘this is how it feels!’

 

[ccrdave]

I have limited experience of shimano motor and good experience of the specialised brose motor
brose
The origional 1.2 motor was a piece of unreliable crap
the updated (to me) 1.2 motor is fantastic, totally silent and very powerful, would climb almost anything but different battery firmwares make a big difference.
1.3 motor very smooth and efficient with the latest firmwares in both battery and motor battery duration is considerably longer. It doesnt feel quite as low down grunty as the 1.2 but I think thats down to battery firmware rather than actual motor power, I do feel spesh cut the balls off it a bit with the restriction of motor current in eco and trail mode in the latest battery firmware, and it means the small handlebar buttons for changing mode is a good addition on the 2018 models as you do need to change modes a bit more than the 1.2 motor battery firmware.
hitting the speed limit unless you are going uphill is almost unnoticeable
there are a few apps now that offer various tuning facilities and the rumoured mission control update should be good.

Shimano
not much to say really as experience is limited but fair to say if I buy another ebike it will have a shimano motor (well everybody needs two ebikes right)
the motor is very smooth and powerfull but a little noisy when pushed, I like the display and trigger setup, there was for me a big jump in power between trail and boost (dont remember if thats what the modes are called) and there was a bit of resistance once you hit the speed limit.
but ll in all a very light compact and powerful motor.

 

[Varaxis]

I'm on Shimano and I'm glad I don't have a high torque motor. I'd rather that the motor forces me to shift to a lower gear in anticipation of the trail, than to put extreme stress on my drivetrain. It still lets me get away with shifting less in rolling terrain. I find I stall out more from traction and balance loss, than from being unable to pedal due to too high of a gear (or not enough torque to push that gear).

The Shimano required me to go in with the etube app to up my trail assist to medium, and reduce the boost assist to low, as the gap between boost and trail was ludicrous, and the gap between eco and trail was hard to sense. Wielding the motor's power as if it were my own will likely take quite a bit of practice. It doesn't feel natural for certain, but I seemingly get along with it on anything but very low speed stuff. I can't really climb stuff that I can't climb on my normal bike, and especially can't restart on such climbs very easily. It's hard to modulate the power when I want to just roll over rocks on uphills; instead, it tends to slam into them and bounce. I've had to adjust my technique to not rely on modulating power, but instead controlling the bike from slamming and just riding it like a beast.

I can only compare it to Yamaha, which I demo'd on a Haibike Sduro, which I was in full Turbo all the time. I noticed it assisted in occasional spurts descents, likely from chain growth, and it didn't do well when I stalled out on climbs from being in too high of a gear (e.g. G-outs).

I honestly went into my purchase without any preconceived notions about the motor. I just trusted the name brand and the reviews. It's been a crash course and I am satisfied with its performance. I didn't have very high expectations, having only ridden the Haibike before, as far as ebikes go. Not sure what kind of charts you want, but if they're anything like other electric motor charts, I definitely don't feel the extra high torque from a standstill. In fact, I find it difficult to wheelie my bike.

 

[Eckythump]

I don’t think you can make a decision based on the numbers. There is a very subjective ‘feel’ to them all.
On paper the Brose unit should wrap it up on the torque front but it has a very natural type of assist. To some people it feels weak, to others they love the more conventional bike behaviour.
I think the trail mode of Shimano is brilliant as it has an uncanny nack of knowing how much assist you need and varies it accordingly. IIRC Eddy really dislikes the Bosch EMTB mode as he prefers to select exactly what assist he needs for the marathon climbs he does.
I guess what I’m trying to say is get out and try as many different ones as you can as the paper excersize doesn’t really pick which motor you will like the best.....

 

[Kernow]

That’s a great video , but I think had I seen that before it would have made choosing more difficult . I was only able to compare Bosch and Brose . I had the Brose 1.2 on demmo , no idea If was updated . it was super quiet and natural and smooth , i hardy noticed it decoupling exept for the loss of assist . I tried a few steep climbs and it just died on me which was disappointing as one of those short sharp climbs I can get up on my normal bike . Next day I Joined a few Bosch powered bikes at a trail park with steep climbs and swapped about a bit . It soon became apparent the Brose has about half the go of the Bosch , so where that huge torque was I don’t know .
The Bosch was noisy and gives you a real kick when you put the power down, which to me is a bit unnatural , I hated the way it reaches the limiter . So based on that niether was for me .
I have watched so many Videos now , but what became apparent was most of the latest enduro bikes from various manufacturers that were getting the best reviews for the actual bike and it’s handling were using the new shimano motor . Not forgetting the specialised and Rocky mountain who use thier own motor and also appear in that top list , these bikes all featured the right geometry for a decent enduro bike , , so then the choice was what do I get for my budget in terms of bike spec ?

 

[mtbdreamin]

I am riding a Bosch CX today or tomorrow on a Moustache Samedi Race 9 so will be able to compare it to my Brose 1.3 motor.

It won’t be scientific at all more like a Rob special ‘this is how it feels!’

Court from electricbikereview.com and has a youtube channel talks a lot about comparisons if you search his youtube channel. Here is an example video of looking into the Brose motor used on the Specialized Turbo Levos.

 

[ccrdave]

I chose my turbo levo because when I bought my first one in 2017 it was the most normal bike looking ebike avaliable. I quickly got used to the fact that you still have to use the gears like a normal bike and once learned stalling was overcome and it really felt like I was riding a normal bike but I was 25 years old again lol!!.
When I bought my 2018 model the battery tune was so different it was like a different bike and to be honest I was a bit disapointed, but I experimented with various settings and now I think its fantastic.
THE 1.2 Brose motor in the early 2016/17 bikes were missing heatsink pads and under load they would overheat and either reduce power or shut down. its was due to this that the motor in my first bike was replaced and heatsink pads fitted, from then the bike was fantastic. The 1.3 motor in the 2018 models has redesigned internal heatsinks and more external heatsink pads fitted.
The 2018 bike is the most normal bike experience I think you can get and for me thats perfect I ride an ebike because im old and I dont want to give up mountain biking.
I have just started playing with this BLEVO app and its early stage of a very steep learning curve but this is taking my bike performace to a new level.
If I was in the market for a new bike what would I buy.....a turbo levo for sure followed by a vitus sommet ebike, actually I might buy one of those anyway!!!

 

[JonasH]

Thank you all for high valued input. I have orderd a Devinci AC XT with a Shimano motor. But i was curious on peoples own experience, I do not really trust the EMBN channel to give all the info that potentially could damage the main sponsor Spesh. I trust you guys more. The Turbo Levo was never a candidate for me, meaning i would NEVER buy a Stumpjumper (XC/Trail bike) , need more agressive geo and LT. But the Kenevo seems really nice (was just concernd over some review mentioned in other tread here were Kenevo seems weaker "motor experience" than the Levo). I just hope EMBN start to pitch the Kenevo vs the Haibike Nduro they are constantly using for different takes. And pitch LT ebikes vs LT ebikes.

Anyway, thank you all for interesting and good information.

 

[ccrdave]

that DEVINCi looks a very cool bike please give us a review once you have ridden it

 

[JonasH]

that DEVINCi looks a very cool bike please give us a review once you have ridden it

I will, probably mid May :-( long wait.

 

[JonasH]

I am riding a Bosch CX today or tomorrow on a Moustache Samedi Race 9 so will be able to compare it to my Brose 1.3 motor.

It won’t be scientific at all more like a Rob special ‘this is how it feels!’

Hi Rob,
How was the "Bosch experience"?

 

[Seric]

I've also ordered a bike with shimano motor now, and mostly is to get the geometry advantages this motor can offer. I'm currently riding with Bosch CX, and are very pleased with how it works. I'm a hefty dude pusshing 220lbs + gear, so both bike and motor needs to pul its weight. I could not be more impressed from how the Bosch CX works at least til it passes the 25kmh limit. It is powerful and are pulling me up some very steep and gnarly stuff. You have to learn how to ride/use it though, as there is alot of torq coming from the motor. No problem getting started from standstill in a steep hill, power is deliverd in a predictale way. Have not yet upgraded to the e-mtb mode though. Bosch is certanly living up to their word on "uphill flow". I'm curious on how the Shimano will deliver. I've only tried it a few hunderd meters, and it is really smooth, and less "motor"-like than the Bosch. All I hope for is that it can still offer the same fun on the uphill as the bosch does.

 

[mtbdreamin]

Trek also uses Bosch CX in their newer models. I tried a Trek PowerFly 7 FS and found it fun, but at the time they only had a 2017 model. I see the newer 2018 models have got the battery a lot more stealthy, which is really nice because I don't know many people that just want to have a wart popping out on their frame. That said, I guess picking your perfect MTB or eMTB is like picking a women, or man, it is all about personal preferences and how it fits. I love my 2018 Specialized Turbo Levo Carbon comp though I have to say it took 2 months to get it. I ordered it mid Nov 2017 and got it mid Jan 2018, it was crazy. In fact they raised the price an extra $500 US, but since I ordered before the price change I got the original $6000 US price. Definately expensive, but it is not just about the electric motor, it is all the great components on the bike plus the carbon frame. So far I love it and do about 15-30 miles a week. And yes, climbing hills on different eMTB I am sure varies, so far with the Levo I have had pretty good success...and FAILURES! I blame the failures on putting to much confidence in the electric motor over my own slack. lol

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

So far to me it feels like:

• Brose (only tested the 1.3 motor). Works well ‘in the background’. Quiet and quite unobtrusive. Power delivery is smooth and can be unnoticeable in Eco (and Trail). I like the way that it adapts to the power that you put into the pedals, the software response is excellent.
• Bosch CX. Strong and powerful. More noisy than the Brose and a bit of a kick compared to the Brose. EMTB mode is similar in feel to the Brose but still has that a little kick to it. Some may not like this too much.

What I will say is that there isn't too much in it at all with these two motors, they are similar in feel but have their nuances. Not tested in extreme weather but have had a bit of cold, wet riding and no troubles with either.

I'll add to the list as I ride more motors

 

[ccrdave]

Changing the acceleration mode in mission control can make the motor feel quite different, put it in race the the bike spurts forward soon as you press the pedals, this is good for climbing but not so good for twisty singletrack. I use a happy medium setting half way between race and normal.
Do the other motors have the same ability for tuning as the Spesh brose motor?

 

[JonasH]

So far to me it feels like:

• Brose (only tested the 1.3 motor). Works well ‘in the background’. Quiet and quite unobtrusive. Power delivery is smooth and can be unnoticeable in Eco (and Trail). I like the way that it adapts to the power that you put into the pedals, the software response is excellent.
• Bosch CX. Strong and powerful. More noisy than the Brose and a bit of a kick compared to the Brose. EMTB mode is similar in feel to the Brose but still has that a little kick to it. Some may not like this too much.

What I will say is that there isn't too much in it at all with these two motors, they are similar in feel but have their nuances. Not tested in extreme weather but have had a bit of cold, wet riding and no troubles with either.

I'll add to the list as I ride more motors

Thanks for your thoughts. From what I read here the 15 extra Nm of torque from the Brose to the Bosch was MIA?

 

[ccrdave]

I dont think it is missing you just need to know how to get at it, spesh say cadence should be in the 70-90 range, the brose motor does not like being mashed, it responds much better to spinning. Also with the latest battery firmware only turbo will give full motor current

 

[eFat]

I have a Bosch Performance (the version before CX) and the latest Brose. Honestly there is not much to say, in the end it's pretty similar.