ebike reliability study shows that Shimano Steps System is a total disaster

[h3rrm]

A german consortium of an insurance company (Wertgarantie) and a scientific institute (Statista) have conducted a study on the reliability of ebike components in the year 2021. Data is probably representative (N > 20 even for small brands). Results for Shimano Steps are a total disaster.

Engine defect rates:
E6000: 16,0%
E8000: 17,6%
E6100: 42,9% (!)

Battery defect rates:
BT-E8010: 24,1%
BT-E8014: 65,0%

From a leading Japanese manufacturer, you would expect their engineers to commit ritual mass suicide and that the company apologizes publicly for this shame. However, no word from Shimano. I highly recommend to never ever buy a Shimano Steps product (again). Not because of the faulty products, but rather Shimano's insincere and intransparent communication and service policy.

By the way, I find it quite remarkable that you read nothing on this topic in journals and magazines. On the other hand, this is not a suprise. We have a saying in Germany: "whose bread I eat, whose song I sing". I guess that's it.

The study can be found (also in English language) at: E-Bike-Reparatur-Studie 2020 ▷ Tops & Flops Akku/Motor - WERTGARANTIE

 

[Spiff]

I believe Shimano Steps for ebike was designed in Europe (Netherlands?). If it had been designed in Japan, we'd have seen a massive Seppuku

 

[Gary]

Interesting first post.

 

[JimBo]

I believe Shimano Steps for ebike was designed in Europe (Netherlands?). If it had been designed in Japan, we'd have seen a massive Seppuku

My lesson of the day in Samurai culture...

 

[h3rrm]

Interesting first post.

Maybe I was a little bit too sarcastic

 

[chamaruco]

brose o mahle? who commissioned the study??

 

[DJ57UMP]

A german consortium of an insurance company (Wertgarantie) and a scientific institute (Statista) have conducted a study on the reliability of ebike components in the year 2021. Data is probably representative (N > 20 even for small brands). Results for Shimano Steps are a total disaster.

Engine defect rates:
E6000: 16,0%
E8000: 17,6%
E6100: 42,9% (!)

Battery defect rates:
BT-E8010: 24,1%
BT-E8014: 65,0%

From a leading Japanese manufacturer, you would expect their engineers to commit ritual mass suicide and that the company apologizes publicly for this shame. However, no word from Shimano. I highly recommend to never ever buy a Shimano Steps product (again). Not because of the faulty products, but rather Shimano's insincere and intransparent communication and service policy.

By the way, I find it quite remarkable that you read nothing on this topic in journals and magazines. On the other hand, this is not a suprise. We have a saying in Germany: "whose bread I eat, whose song I sing". I guess that's it.

The study can be found (also in English language) at: E-Bike-Reparatur-Studie 2020 ▷ Tops & Flops Akku/Motor - WERTGARANTIE

So you're the author or promoting the report or Wertgarantie?

The report (in English at least) seems to read as a report about risk of insuring an e-bike based on repairs needed after an accident.

You quote battery defect rates for the Shimano system that don't appear to be on the report?

There's so much about this report that looks bogus tbh. You're saying failures where the report refers to damage distribution?

It may well be that if I have a Bosch display and a Yamaha battery that I get a cheaper insurance quote in the case of an accident resulting in damage - but that's not the same as failures is it?

Happy to have read this wrong, I'm not a statistician, economist or data analyst - but you can't deny a man a hobby. Anyway Marco, thanks for sharing

Raw data might help... all 1700 or so respondents. A decent study would have engaged the manufacturers and got a decent dataset.

 

[RebornRider]

brose o mahle? who commissioned the study??

Probably not Brose! Here is the motor complaint rate chart.

 

[Mikerb]

I may be maligning the Statistics organisation but the data surely has to be adjusted to take account of at least 2 other factors...........mileage, and type of use. With any mechanical device you would expect a higher failure rate with higher levels of use and with more demanding type use as in MTB v commuting/city bike.

 

[CJaMTB]

Probably not Brose! Here is the motor complaint rate chart.

View attachment 80738

Looks like E7000 for the win then, with 0 complaints!!!

 

[Spiff]

Looks like E7000 for the win then, with 0 complaints!!!

May be it was out of the scale

 

[pmcdonald]

Interesting. Given the near complete lack of transparency around failure rates I'll take whatever breadcrumbs are offered up for consideration.

This was posted a while back on EBR: Spring 2020 Ebike Reliability Survey Results

The focus over there is more commuter oriented so there's no huge insights for the emtb community. The author diligently placed mean distance between fault as the key metric, and noted sample sizes and failure severity.

 

[urastus]

Do I trust insurance companies? They are a business to make money, and that's it. I'm sure they would accept money for anything if it was a good deal for them. Maybe yamaha, haibike, giant, lapierre (any manufacturer using yamaha motors) dug into their marketing budget? It would be easy to arrange. Who was that famous statistical expert that said something along the lines of "tell me the result you want and I'll create the survey for it".

After saying that, we know that ebike motors do have a fairly high failure rate. I'm only questioning the rate reported here, and it's distribution.

 

[RustyIron]

I find it quite remarkable that you read nothing on this topic in journals and magazines.

So this is a well concealed secret known only to you and a German group who specializes in washing machines, hearing aids, watches, and now eMTB's?

Beware of strangers who come knocking in the middle of the night. The Shimano Ninja Assassins might want to keep this quiet.

 

[Mikerb]

Do I trust insurance companies? They are a business to make money, and that's it. I'm sure they would accept money for anything if it was a good deal for them. Maybe yamaha, haibike, giant, lapierre (any manufacturer using yamaha motors) dug into their marketing budget? It would be easy to arrange. Who was that famous statistical expert that said something along the lines of "tell me the result you want and I'll create the survey for it".

After saying that, we know that ebike motors do have a fairly high failure rate. I'm only questioning the rate reported here, and it's distribution.

I do not believe they have a high failure rate. The vast majority of ebike motors are fitted to city/commuter bikes and those bikes have a far easier life than any EMTB!! and the failure rate for EMTB is probably much higher.

Obviously any mechanical device can fail since no manufacture process is perfect but how that device is used has a huge impact on whether it wil remain reliable over time. So what is likely to shorten its life??

Water/dirt ingress to bearings or PCB, over heating, violent impact environment ( pedal strikes/ hard landings/ rock gardens), inappropriate electrical power regulation ( design or subsequent component fault).

I believe early versions of various motor brands were eager to promote their products based on a "power league"..........who has the most torque etc. Some had the potential to provide more power than was good for the motor as a whole.........not the electric motor per se but the drivetrain from it to the cranks. They also failed to pay sufficient attention to sealing the motor from water and dust/mud ingress and they failed to provide sufficient heat sinks or shut down devices.
The Bosch Gen 4 motor due to its later release date, I believe, dealt with most of those issues and keeping access to the motor characteristics closed was I believe a part of those measures. It also launched the motor with 75nm to see how it faired before increasing that to 85nm via a firmware upgrade, rather than launch with 85nm straight away. I think it is a retrograde step to open up the Bosch system to users now.
It is clear that many of the same steps have progressively been taken with the Brose motor; some to reduce peak power and some to beef up internal drive components and add additonal water proofing and cooling. I still condsider the Brose far more powerful than the Bosch ( with less rider effort that is) with the result that it is still possible for a rider to push it too hard; and whilst the belt drive delivers a quieter motor I think it is bound to be less robust solution than meshed gears. I would hope the Shimano EP8 has similar improvements over previous versions of their motor but I have no experience of Shimano motors................or Yamaha.......so cannot comment.

 

[steve_sordy]

I sure hope that the EP8 with its 85Nm is more robust than the e8000 with its 70Nm and is not just a slightly smaller and lighter version but with the same quality bearings and gears. I hope that, because I am taking full advantage of that extra torque. After almost 1000 miles the motor seems quieter than it was when it was new, so the omens are good.

PS: I had zero problems with the e8000 (3100 miles), and zero also with the EP8 (972miles so far). Not big miles of course.

 

[urastus]

I had zero problems with the e8000 (3100 miles), and zero also with the EP8 (972miles so far)

That's a lot of hours in the saddle steve - it sounds like you're getting your money's worth!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hi,
New to these Forums. I learned about this thread from another e-bike Forum. I do not trust the report mentioned by the OP, because of the mileage of my three e-bikes and no single motor failure:

• Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro (2020): 8400 km (Yamaha PW-X2)
• Specialized Vado 5.0 (2017): 11000 km (Specialized 1.2s/Brose TF)
• Specialized Vado SL (2021): 3380 km (Specialized SL 1.1 by Mahle)

Only one of these e-bikes is an e-MTB but no motor or battery issues for any. If the report were true, this forum would be full of furious owners of broken motors/batteries...

 

[steve_sordy]

That's a lot of hours in the saddle steve - it sounds like you're getting your money's worth!

I really hadn't thought it was a lot of hours. My perception from reading this Forum and others is that many riders do a LOT more. Maybe they commute on their bikes, whereas I avoid tarmac as much as possible. I tend to do 15-20 miles every time I go out, so you can work out how many times I ride (which seems to me not a lot).
As for money's worth: My last year of mtb was at 10 miles per trip followed by a 2-3 day recovery period until I stopped hobbling. So emtb has been an eye opener! A life-saving fantastically enjoyable eye opener.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Interesting report.

I'd not take too much notice of it as truly representitive. With any stats, we don't know the full picture. Here's what I noticed: Firstly, it's published by an insurance company. The data and survey questions were provided by the companies customers, according to the report.

"The results of the survey and the e-bikes/pedelecs insured by WERTGARANTIE provided the data on which the Repair Index is based."

So we are looking at a subset of a market who choose to insure their bikes, to provide survey answers.

Next, the motor "failure" rate. Its not solely based on manufacturing defects / failures:

"Damage due to accidents as well as due to technical defects was taken into account here."

So we have no idea if their customers, of the insurance company, actually suffered motor failure, or smashed it into a tree and damaged it.

Now lets take a look at the actual bikes and motors the companies customers were riding, as well as the satisfaction reports:

Gazelle Arroyo C7 HMS (2017) and the ladies’ model of the Diamant Achat Deluxe+ (2019) achieved first place in the motor rating with 88 per cent. The Bergamont E-Contrail 6.0 Plus (2018) has the least customer loyalty here with only 69 per cent.

The top 2 bikes, in terms of motor rating, are city ebikes. The lowest rated motor is an eMTB. Doesn't take much to work out that the stresses on the two different riding styles are poles apart.

Lets take a look at the 'first place in the motor rating'. The Gazelle Arroyo C7 HMS:

So this tells us that this bike, pictured above, has the highest rated motor from the survey, at 88%. It has a Shimano motor, and was rated the "First Place in Motor Rating" according to the report.

Which motor does this bike have? The Shimano Steps E6010. LOL

Wait, what? The exact motor that is reported to be rated the worst for 'defects'? Yep!!! "First Place in Motor Rating" But also ranks lowest on the insurance companies "Damage Distribution" chart.

So, I present to you that the highest rated motor, has had the highest number of customer claims due to them damaging it / crashing the bike. Therefore being ranked the 'worst' by the report. Remember, the specifics of the motor 'failure' report:

"Damage due to accidents as well as due to technical defects was taken into account here."

See how easy it is to find numbers and make them work for you?

Also, sample size is "Min. no. of respondents per motor: 20". In a previous life I worked with stats for a tech company, and we would disregard any sample data sets under 50, as data can be spurious at best and misleading at worst.

So take the report with a massive pinch of salt. Ride you bike hard, find a good dealer, don't stress over corporate stats by insurance companies!!

 

[Zimmerframe]

So this tells us that the this bike, pictured above, has the highest rated motor from the survey, at 88%. It has a Shimano motor, and was rated the "First Place in Motor Rating" according to the report.

So most men who buy themselves a ladies Shimano motored bike, don't ride it and make no failure claims. But insure it in the hope that someone will steal it.

 

[Pdoz]

So most men who buy themselves a ladies Shimano motored bike, don't ride it and make no failure claims. But insure it in the hope that someone will steal it.

You're drunk again. Read it carefully - if's a Gazelle. As in Gaz Hell . How many times have we read about Garrys shimano? He was terrified it would be stolen so it's insured.

Interesting first post.

Me thinks he does protest too much?

 

[MadManPedal]

At least Yamaha is still true to the roots. Bosch always uses some fancy ideas as innovation while cutting corners all the time...the classic difference between Japanese products and Germany products.

 

[Zimmerframe]

At least Yamaha is still true to the roots

A piano and reed organ manufacturer ? I'm not seeing the connection.

Or are you implying something from the statistics provided, which most people are pointing out don't give you enough information to actually use them to interpret the data into anything useful.

Bosch always uses some fancy ideas as innovation

Isn't innovation invariably fancy ideas ? I think it's pretty rare to churn out the same crap and call it innovation. Meanwhile with the Gen4 they seem to have produced the most reliable CE compliant Full fat motor and the most efficient, even if they do make crappy EMTB switches and displays.

while cutting corners all the time

Like decent bearings & bearing seals with all metal gears ? Or they could just do like Yamaha and stick bushings in there instead which need re-greasing every 1500 miles and use plastic gears which strip ? Fine if you want to doodle along but not much use on an EMTB which someone wants to use in it's natural environment.

 

[MadManPedal]

A piano and reed organ manufacturer ? I'm not seeing the connection.

Or are you implying something from the statistics provided, which most people are pointing out don't give you enough information to actually use them to interpret the data into anything useful.


Isn't innovation invariably fancy ideas ? I think it's pretty rare to churn out the same crap and call it innovation. Meanwhile with the Gen4 they seem to have produced the most reliable CE compliant Full fat motor and the most efficient, even if they do make crappy EMTB switches and displays.


Like decent bearings & bearing seals with all metal gears ? Or they could just do like Yamaha and stick bushings in there instead which need re-greasing every 1500 miles and use plastic gears which strip ? Fine if you want to doodle along but not much use on an EMTB which someone wants to use in it's natural environment.

Just saying insurance companies prefers Japanese products more than Germany products, there is a reason for it.
Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd. does produce a 50K piano but they also know how to seal a motor in the first place unlike Bosch.

 

[chamaruco]

Interesting report.

I'd not take too much notice of it as truly representitive. With any stats, we don't know the full picture. Here's what I noticed: Firstly, it's published by an insurance company. The data and survey questions were provided by the companies customers, according to the report.

"The results of the survey and the e-bikes/pedelecs insured by WERTGARANTIE provided the data on which the Repair Index is based."

So we are looking at a subset of a market who choose to insure their bikes, to provide survey answers.

Next, the motor "failure" rate. Its not solely based on manufacturing defects / failures:

"Damage due to accidents as well as due to technical defects was taken into account here."

So we have no idea if their customers, of the insurance company, actually suffered motor failure, or smashed it into a tree and damaged it.

Now lets take a look at the actual bikes and motors the companies customers were riding, as well as the satisfaction reports:

Gazelle Arroyo C7 HMS (2017) and the ladies’ model of the Diamant Achat Deluxe+ (2019) achieved first place in the motor rating with 88 per cent. The Bergamont E-Contrail 6.0 Plus (2018) has the least customer loyalty here with only 69 per cent.

The top 2 bikes, in terms of motor rating, are city ebikes. The lowest rated motor is an eMTB. Doesn't take much to work out that the stresses on the two different riding styles are poles apart.

Lets take a look at the 'first place in the motor rating'. The Gazelle Arroyo C7 HMS:

View attachment 80830

So this tells us that the this bike, pictured above, has the highest rated motor from the survey, at 88%. It has a Shimano motor, and was rated the "First Place in Motor Rating" according to the report.

Which motor does this bike have? The Shimano Steps E6010. LOL

View attachment 80831

Wait, what? The exact motor that is reported to be rated the worst for 'defects'? Yep!!! "First Place in Motor Rating" But also ranks lowest on the insurance companies "Damage Distribution" chart.

So, I present to you that the highest rated motor, has had the highest number of customer claims due to them damaging it / crashing the bike. Therefore being ranked the 'worst' by the report. Remember, the specifics of the motor 'failure' report:

"Damage due to accidents as well as due to technical defects was taken into account here."

See how easy it is to find numbers and make them work for you?

Also, sample size is "Min. no. of respondents per motor: 20". In a previous life I worked with stats for a tech company, and we would disregard any sample data sets under 50, as data can be spurious at best and misleading at worst.

So take the report with a massive pinch of salt. Ride you bike hard, find a good dealer, don't stress over corporate stats by insurance companies!!

after this i must consider my wife and her bike under a different light...

 

[Coolcmsc]

A german consortium of an insurance company (Wertgarantie) and a scientific institute (Statista) have conducted a study on the reliability of ebike components in the year 2021. Data is probably representative (N > 20 even for small brands). Results for Shimano Steps are a total disaster.

Engine defect rates:
E6000: 16,0%
E8000: 17,6%
E6100: 42,9% (!)

Battery defect rates:
BT-E8010: 24,1%
BT-E8014: 65,0%

From a leading Japanese manufacturer, you would expect their engineers to commit ritual mass suicide and that the company apologizes publicly for this shame. However, no word from Shimano. I highly recommend to never ever buy a Shimano Steps product (again). Not because of the faulty products, but rather Shimano's insincere and intransparent communication and service policy.

By the way, I find it quite remarkable that you read nothing on this topic in journals and magazines. On the other hand, this is not a suprise. We have a saying in Germany: "whose bread I eat, whose song I sing". I guess that's it.

The study can be found (also in English language) at: E-Bike-Reparatur-Studie 2020 ▷ Tops & Flops Akku/Motor - WERTGARANTIE

What a load of twaddle! Well spotted @Gary and everyone for straight up debunking this, this… OK, I can’t say it can I @Rob Rides EMTB ?. I’ve had a close look too and, as @Rob Rides EMTB points out, scientifically, it falls at the first hurdle (and would do so at all the subsequent ones too if the data wasn’t already down and out).
And these error codes… None of them are the ones we recognise here and in similar MTB forums.
And, unmentioned so far, not only is the data acquisition biased - potentially massively so - it has the now well rehearsed ‘denominator issue’ too.
I’d love to moan about Shimano motors as mine’s in for repairs. But the truth is, all it means is that A) my bike needs a repair, duh! and B) don’t trust anything bad I say about Shimano ‘cos I’m having trouble being objective today

 

[Mikerb]

Like Rob I dealt with stats in a previous life:-
No set of stats were gathered in a vacuum. For that reason most stats are open to manipulation to suit whoever uses them. So some golden rules which may be useful in the current climate:-


Statistics can be useful for those engaged in the activity for which the stats are gathered.........but rarely for 3rd parties.
The raw data and measurement criterea are more informative than the apparent conclusion.
Statistics are only useful to suggest trends rather than absolutes and any trend can only be assessed over an appropriate timescale.
Statistics to measure ( targetted) success or failure are invariably meaningless
Statistics reported as percentages are meaningless.

 

[jcismo1]

Here’s what I know from personal experience…
I HAD a Niner rip-e9, which comes with a Bosch Gen4 motor. At approximately 2000 miles, the motor was making a terrible racket upon hard acceleration. I jumped through the many hoops, (I believe 5 or 6 of them) that Bosch required of me, at a considerable cost of time and money. Many trips and phone calls. Also a lot of swings and misses. Only to have Bosch, refuse to give me a new motor. I finally told the dealer that I was going to get rid of the bike and get a bike with a Shimano motor.
I purchased an Orbea Rise M10 and at this point, have logged more than 1800, trouble free miles on it. Funny thing is, I think the EP-8 motor is quieter now, then it was when it was new. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[franciscoasismm]

Mi e8000 cumple 2 años, 12.000 km de trail y 0 problemas.