Eagle (SX) tuning - help!

[p3eps]

This is a non EMTB question, but hopefully someone can help me anyway…

I bought my daughter a Specialized Rockhopper for her birthday. She’s going to be 9, and I’ve got her an XS ‘Expert’ model. Grandma is the one buying it, so I had to get the best deal possible. This meant ordering online…

It’s here now, and yesterday I took it out of the box, put the bars and wheels on… and fitted some nice purple grips, stem cap, pedals to add a bit of colour.

I’ve got it in my stand, so made a wee adjustment to the brakes to stop them rubbing, and ran through the gears.
1 to 3 were fine, but 4/5/6/7 would all skip, then 8-12 were fine. The B Gap wasn’t set quite right, so I fixed that, and then started fiddling.

I’ve had an Eagle drivetrain on my Stumpy since they first came out, so I’ve adjusted that several times. I’ve also fitted XX1 AXS to my Levo SL, then GX AXS to my Stumpy later on, and eventually an XX Transmission to my SL.

Although I’m no stranger to adjusting them, I’m finding this one impossible.
I’ve spent the last 4 hours this evening, and about 90 mins yesterday fannying about with it, and going back to basics and watching YouTube videos! I must’ve watched about 20 different ones, but they all go though the same method…

Chain on smallest cog.
Undo the cable.
Using the upper limit screw, make sure the chain line is straight.
Pull cable taut (not tight) and do up the bolt.
Make sure it shifts up a gear per click.
Once at the top cog adjust the lower limit screw.
Shifting ‘should’ be fine.

I’ve done this so many times now. If I have it perfect at the top and bottom, it skips gears 4/5/6.
On the flip side, I can get it to shift perfectly from about 3-12, but 1/2 sound like crap… or alternatively, I can get 1-8 fine, and 9-12 skip and sound dreadful.
I’ve also tried several barrel adjustments too, but that doesn’t help either.

Nothing ‘looks’ bent or damaged, but it has been shipped in a box - so it is possible it could have been bounced about on the way.

Although her birthday isn’t until the end of the month, she has seen it (difficult to hide!) and since we’re away on holiday on her birthday, I figured we could maybe test it out this weekend… but the way it’s going, I feel like I’m going to have to bite the bullet and try and book an appointment at a local shop.

Any advice appreciated!

 

[MasterDabber]

Not specifically answering your question but... I had a Calibre Bossnut with SX. I had similar problems and spent ages tinkering with it with limited success. In the end the rear derailleur exploded on me on a trail where forest debris had got caught in it... Long walk.
Bottom line is that I replaced the SX RD with a Shimano SLX RD but kept the SX shifter. It all worked perfectly.

 

[p3eps]

Not specifically answering your question but... I had a Calibre Bossnut with SX. I had similar problems and spent ages tinkering with it with limited success. In the end the rear derailleur exploded on me on a trail where forest debris had got caught in it... Long walk.
Bottom line is that I replaced the SX RD with a Shimano SLX RD but kept the SX shifter. It all worked perfectly.

I realise the SX is the bottom of the range Eagle, but it's for a 9 year old! I do actually have my X01 derailleur / shifter sitting in a box from where I changed my Stumpy to AXS... but I don't really want to give her that!

I called the online store I bought it from this morning. They've asked me to take it to a local store and get an assessment / gear tune up done, and they'll pay up to £30 without authorisation. At least if the derailleur / hanger are damaged, the shop will figure that out - as I don't have the tools for that.
I've got it booked in for Sunday - so I;ll hopefully have a conclusion then.

Tonight, I'm going to try the B Gap by eye rather than with the tool, as I've found other cases online where that fixed it.

 

[steve_sordy]

When someone who knows what they are doing can't get it right then there is a high chance that it will be a bent mech hanger.

Some other random tips that I have learned.

Many years ago, before I was really into bikes, my wife won a bike in a raffle and I just could not get the shifting right. I took it into the LBS and they told me that the shifter and cassette were different speeds! Don't rule it out!

Remove the chain and move the mech by hand and check that the upper jockey wheel is directly underneath the largest and smallest gears on the cassette. Adjust the limit screws to make that happen.

When you put the chain back on, watch and listen to it when it's running on the largest and smallest gears on the cassette. Adjust the limit screws to get it at the quietest and smoothest.

As long as the shifter and cassette match up you should be good to go.

It's a new bike so these next ones should not apply:

A sticky cable can cause all sorts of shifting problems. Your strong thumb often has little difficulty pushing the chain up the cassette to larger gears, but the mech relies on a spring to pull the chain down the cassette to smaller gears. If the inner wire is sticking inside the outer, then it won't shift properly, or at all, until it shifts twice all by itself.

Has the gear cable outer been dented causing a sticky cable? See above.

Is the cable routing smooth? See above.

 

[twistgripper]

Unfortunately, the SX is a plastic piece of junk, shameful that put that on an "expert" model. mine snapped in half on my 2nd ride - replaced it with shimano SLX

 

[p3eps]

When someone who knows what they are doing can't get it right then there is a high chance that it will be a bent mech hanger.

Some other random tips that I have learned.

Many years ago, before I was really into bikes, my wife won a bike in a raffle and I just could not get the shifting right. I took it into the LBS and they told me that the shifter and cassette were different speeds! Don't rule it out!

Remove the chain and move the mech by hand and check that the upper jockey wheel is directly underneath the largest and smallest gears on the cassette. Adjust the limit screws to make that happen.

When you put the chain back on, watch and listen to it when it's running on the largest and smallest gears on the cassette. Adjust the limit screws to get it at the quietest and smoothest.

As long as the shifter and cassette match up you should be good to go.

It's a new bike so these next ones should not apply:

A sticky cable can cause all sorts of shifting problems. Your strong thumb often has little difficulty pushing the chain up the cassette to larger gears, but the mech relies on a spring to pull the chain down the cassette to smaller gears. If the inner wire is sticking inside the outer, then it won't shift properly, or at all, until it shifts twice all by itself.

Has the gear cable outer been dented causing a sticky cable? See above.

Is the cable routing smooth? See above.

Thanks for the tips...
On the call to the online bike store today, the guy advised that their mechanics build up the bike in-store and test them, before partly disassembling for shipping. Apparently, this is why it's in a different box to it should be (I never actually noticed - it was a big Specialized box!). Mine was shipped with the back wheel already on, however a factory bike wouldn't have... so the shipping box has to be bigger than the original box

From this, I can only conclude that it's taken a knock during the delivery. If it left them working, I'd hope that the cable issues shouldn't be there. The derailleur is a pretty vulnerable bit of kit at the best of times... so maybe being crammed into a box and couriered for 100's of miles has caused the issue.

Unfortunately, the SX is a plastic piece of junk, shameful that put that on an "expert" model. mine snapped in half on my 2nd ride - replaced it with shimano SLX

I guess that although the Expert is the top model of the Rockhopper range, at £850 (or £970rrp) it's probably still considered a fairly budget bike nowadays.

 

[Mikerb]

By your description it sounds like the problem lies in the cassette..which is a PG 1230 I think. The cassette is not one piece so has spacers between some cogs. Also the cassette fits with no "back" spacer if fitted to a 10 speed splined driver, whereas it needs a 1.85mm "back " spacer if fitted onto a 11 speed splined driver. Maybe the problem lies with those spacers....ie wrong place or missing.

 

[Doomanic]

For SX to be shite they'd need to improve it.

I do actually have my X01 derailleur / shifter sitting in a box from where I changed my Stumpy to AXS... but I don't really want to give her that!

Why not? You're not using it...

 

[p3eps]

For SX to be shite they'd need to improve it.


Why not? You're not using it...

Part of me grudges putting a heap of expensive stuff on her bike, as she won’t appreciate it! She’ll probably leave it sitting in a neighbours garden or something, and someone will nick it!
If the SX breaks, then I’d probably stick my old one on rather than buying a new one… but for now, the SX will do her fine.

Dropped the bike at the shop at hour ago - so will see what they say tomorrow / Monday hopefully.

I tried moving the B adjust about a bit, but it made no difference.

By your description it sounds like the problem lies in the cassette..which is a PG 1230 I think. The cassette is not one piece so has spacers between some cogs. Also the cassette fits with no "back" spacer if fitted to a 10 speed splined driver, whereas it needs a 1.85mm "back " spacer if fitted onto a 11 speed splined driver. Maybe the problem lies with those spacers....ie wrong place or missing.

If the cassette was the problem, then Id like to think the shop would have picked up on that when they prepared it.
Maybe you’re right though. Will see what they say.

What you’re saying probably explains why when I used my Stumpy on my Kickr, why I have to adjust the derailleur a heap though. I bought the cheapest Eagle cassette for that, as the Kickr had a Shimano adapter on it.
Now I have AXS, it’s just a case of moving it from 16 to 0 in the microtune… but I bet that’s the reason.

 

[Ickle_legs]

Bit (too) late to the party but I've had a couple of similar head scratching situations only to find that the derailleur was slightly loose where bolted to hanger, wasn't obvious whilst chain under tension.

Ps.I thought NX was gash (e.g. functional but unrefined and easily knocked out of alignment) so SX must be #@*%

 

[Woodyc]

I had the exact same problem on my SX. A mobile bike mechanic came over and found that the mech hanger was not quite straight. He straightened it and now all is well. I, as you tried everything to no avail. He charged me 60 bucks but it was well worth it.

 

[steve_sordy]

For SX to be shite they'd need to improve it.
.......

I've never used SX, but that comment made me laugh out loud!

 

[steve_sordy]

Bit (too) late to the party but I've had a couple of similar head scratching situations only to find that the derailleur was slightly loose where bolted to hanger, wasn't obvious whilst chain under tension.
.........

Sadly, I too have had similar happen to me. My excuse is that these events were many years ago!

The bolt securing the mech to the hanger was loose and I didn't even think that was a "thing", so whilst out riding, I kept trying to adjust the mech. You can imagine how that went!

My 8-year old grandson was on his first mtb skills course and I was just following along. My shifting started to be all over the place. As before I started to adjust my shifting. I'd fix it and then it would go off again. But the culprit was a loose clamp on the Shimano left side crank arm. The whole axle, ring, and drive side crank assembly was slowly moving outwards. Eventually, my problem-solving brain took precedence over my "need to keep up with grandson" brain and I fixed it quickly. God knows what the instructor thought I was up to!

On my first mtb, chainsuck suddenly became a problem. At the time, I didn't know it was called chainsuck, nor what was causing it! on my first trip into the Peak District (what passes for mountainous terrain in the UK), I would have bought magic beads from an oily salesman to have fixed it there and then! I don't think I slowed down my riding buddies, well not by much anyway.

I had put a new chain on my bike, spun it round and cycled through the gears on the bike stand. Perfect, good to go! The next day, the chain was slipping all over the place with loud clunks. It was almost unrideable. Fortunately, one of my riding buddies diagnosed a new chain on old gears (yes, I know...) and there was a bike shop nearby! See the pic below for just how worn that ring was. For the avoidance of doubt, the new one is at the back! He had a workshop in the boot of his car (!) and we fixed it very quickly. I must have paid a 50% premium for that chainring, but they had one in stock and I was just too glad to care!

 

[p3eps]

I didn’t give the LBS any information when I dropped the bike off, other than I’d like the gears indexed.

They called just now saying they can’t get them indexed correctly - basically the same as me… they can get sections working, but not them all.

He said he thought either the derailleur or hanger was bent… so I asked if he could advise which. He’s called about a minute ago advising it’s the hanger.

I’m glad!! If he’d managed to get it working, then I’d have been perplexed!
I spent so many hours trying to adjust it… so I’m happy it wasn’t just me!

I guess that’s a call to the online store tomorrow asking what they want to do… send me a hanger, or pay for the LBS to order / fit one.

 

[steve_sordy]

They can use a mech hanger alignment tool/gauge, like this one from Park Tool: (Quick and cheap to use).

DAG-2.2 Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge

Diagnose and correct a variety of shifting issues by measuring the alignment of the derailleur hanger compared to the rear wheel.

www.parktool.com

The Park Tool item is not cheap to buy but there are many cheaper ones available that do the same job. If you buy one, you will get your money back very quickly vs the LBS doing the alignment for you.

I never needed an alignment tool/gauge until I was into 11 and 12-speed gears. Then the extra precision required for shifting showed up any misalignment. As long as the hanger is not too bent, it can be straightened without harm.

 

[p3eps]

They can use a mech hanger alignment tool/gauge, like this one from Park Tool: (Quick and cheap to use).

DAG-2.2 Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge

Diagnose and correct a variety of shifting issues by measuring the alignment of the derailleur hanger compared to the rear wheel.

www.parktool.com

The Park Tool item is not cheap to buy but there are many cheaper ones available that do the same job. If you buy one, you will get your money back very quickly vs the LBS doing the alignment for you.

I never needed an alignment tool/gauge until I was into 11 and 12-speed gears. Then the extra precision required for shifting showed up any misalignment. As long as the hanger is not too bent, it can be straightened without harm.

I was half tempted to order one, as I can get it for £65 just now. I've got an almost 9 year old and a 4 year old - so will probably have many years of bike repairs ahead of me. My AXS Transmission doesn't have a hanger, so it's not required for me!

 

[steve_sordy]

It's nice to be able to use and own good tools. But they are designed for a lot of use. If you don't use them very often, they can be just an expensive luxury. I bought the Park Tool version when it was on offer and very quickly got half my money back vs the LBS charge of £10 per adjustment. I then spent rather more time than the LBS does to get the adjustment bang on instead of "within 3mm" which is the suggested accuracy needed. I haven't needed to use it since (luck, not skill). If I also count the number of times my mate has borrowed it, then it has definitely paid for itself!
If I lost the tool or broke it beyond repair, I doubt that I would buy another Park Tool one. Instead, I'd get one of the cheaper ones, probably this one:

Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge Sturdy Straightening Tool | eBay

We'd like to settle any problem in a friendly manner. Because the unpaid dispute will not be closed automatically, and we may ignore it.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[p3eps]

It's nice to be able to use and own good tools. But they are designed for a lot of use. If you don't use them very often, they can be just an expensive luxury. I bought the Park Tool version when it was on offer and very quickly got half my money back vs the LBS charge of £10 per adjustment. I then spent rather more time than the LBS does to get the adjustment bang on instead of "within 3mm" which is the suggested accuracy needed. I haven't needed to use it since (luck, not skill). If I also count the number of times my mate has borrowed it, then it has definitely paid for itself!
If I lost the tool or broke it beyond repair, I doubt that I would buy another Park Tool one. Instead, I'd get one of the cheaper ones, probably this one:

Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge Sturdy Straightening Tool | eBay

We'd like to settle any problem in a friendly manner. Because the unpaid dispute will not be closed automatically, and we may ignore it.

www.ebay.co.uk

That looks very much like a re-branded Park Tool one. Even with the discount code, the Park DAG2.2 at £65 sounds expensive for something I may never use when I can have a clone for £31.49 (can get that same ebay one from another seller cheaper).

I've got some Park Tools in my collection and always find them to be top notch. I've also got a load of Facom, Wera, Knipex, Norbar and Bahco stuff from my days as an instrument tech that's equally as good, but isn't a bike specific brand. I appreciate good tools too, but in this case, maybe ordering the 'best' would be a complete waste of money, and an eBay copy would do me fine.

 

[CannonFodder]

I've also got a load of Facom, Wera, Knipex, Norbar and Bahco stuff from my days as an instrument tech that's equally as good, but isn't a bike specific brand. I appreciate good tools too, but in this case, maybe ordering the 'best' would be a complete waste of money, and an eBay copy would do me fine.

Sounds like you were in my garage

 

[Gman086]

Keep in mind the SX is the ONLY Sram rear der that uses a cable loop like the old Shimano ders… if you go too short on the cable, that loop will be much tighter and bind the cable causing the problems you had.. I also found the SX cassette to be an absolute nightmare to tune because of the individual cogs spaced out with cheap plastic spacers like Mikerb pointed out. That cassette should be fine for your daughter but no one should even consider using it on an eBike (mine went in the trash where it belongs). The SX rear der is actually quite stout and worked well for over 1,000 miles on mine before I finally ditched my 12 speed setup for 11 speed GX (just going to the one-piece GX cassette was a HUGE improvement but you will need a new hub driver). Also the chain is just flat out garbage and lasts less than 200 miles on an eMTB where you get what you pay for (GX lasts 500 miles, XO1 lasts 2,000). SX der and shifter are just fine as long as you know these things.

Have FUN!

G MAN

 

[Hamina]

By your description it sounds like the problem lies in the cassette..which is a PG 1230 I think. The cassette is not one piece so has spacers between some cogs. Also the cassette fits with no "back" spacer if fitted to a 10 speed splined driver, whereas it needs a 1.85mm "back " spacer if fitted onto a 11 speed splined driver. Maybe the problem lies with those spacers....ie wrong place or missing.

I've had zero issues with NX-cassette during the last 5000km and maybe 5 cassettes(?). If you're able to tune the upper and lower limit correct it shouldn't' matter what material the spacers are.. All the spacer are same size. Maybe it's possible to lose on spacer but I guess the cassette wouldn't work at all.

If the SX derailleur breaks easily it's not a reason why one can't' get it dialled. Two different things. Mine broke after 500km but that was my rookie fault.

It's strange that the derailleur doesn't work even straight out of box. I would test with the X01 and see if it works any better. Just be see where the problem is.

 

[p3eps]

It's strange that the derailleur doesn't work even straight out of box. I would test with the X01 and see if it works any better. Just be see where the problem is.

It’s a bent hanger - no issue with the derailleur

 

[p3eps]

99 Bikes sent me out a new hanger. I gave it to the shop, and they have to fit / index the gears… then give me a receipt for the work - and 99 Bikes will pay it.
Dropped the hanger off at about 4pm yesterday, and had a call at about 3pm today telling me it was ready.

I collected the bike about an hour later. £8. I’m astonished a business can make any money charging £8 to fit a new hanger and index the gears. I understand it probably took less than 15 mins, but still!

Anyway - gears seem to shift flawlessly now. I’m so pleased the hanger was bent and it wasn’t just me being crap at indexing

 

[steve_sordy]

..................... I’m astonished a business can make any money charging £8 to fit a new hanger and index the gears. I understand it probably took less than 15 mins, but still!

Anyway - gears seem to shift flawlessly now. I’m so pleased the hanger was bent and it wasn’t just me being crap at indexing

They changed the hanger in less than 2 mins then tested the shifting and discovered that some obsessive had already made it perfect.

By the time they had put the bike on the stand, changed the hanger, tested the shifting and removed the bike from the strand, probably 10 mins had elapsed. So, you have been charged £48/hour if that makes you feel any better.

 

[Gman086]

I've had zero issues with NX-cassette during the last 5000km and maybe 5 cassettes(?). If you're able to tune the upper and lower limit correct it shouldn't' matter what material the spacers are.. All the spacer are same size. Maybe it's possible to lose on spacer but I guess the cassette wouldn't work at all.

If the SX derailleur breaks easily it's not a reason why one can't' get it dialled. Two different things. Mine broke after 500km but that was my rookie fault.

The NX cassette is a step up and has harder cogs (bend less easily than the SX) so…. it may not be the spacers so much as the cheap cogs themselves which are going to eat into the freehub shell whether you like it or not being individual cogs on a high torque eMTB unless you are quite the lightweight. That alone will change the indexing of the cassette teeth over time.

As for the SX rear der durability, I stand by what I said… they last just as long as any other SRAM der and I have yet to see one be the “cause” of any shifting problems unless the cage is bent.

Lastly to the OP, yes, you really need to buy a rear der alignment tool if you own an eMTB and check that FIRST if having shifting issues. It’s a must have IMHO. Also note that your rear wheel needs to be relatively true to use the tool properly.

Have FUN!

G MAN

 

[p3eps]

They changed the hanger in less than 2 mins then tested the shifting and discovered that some obsessive had already made it perfect.

By the time they had put the bike on the stand, changed the hanger, tested the shifting and removed the bike from the strand, probably 10 mins had elapsed. So, you have been charged £48/hour if that makes you feel any better.

It wasn’t until I was in the car home, I thought I should have told them to charge me more! I had £35 repair authorised!

Lastly to the OP, yes, you really need to buy a rear der alignment tool if you own an eMTB and check that FIRST if having shifting issues. It’s a must have IMHO. Also note that your rear wheel needs to be relatively true to use the tool properly.

Have FUN!

G MAN

My eMTB has a T-Type on it, so is mounted directly to the frame - no need for a hanger.
Going to pick up one of the cheaper hanger alignment tools anyway though for the kids bikes and my Stumpjumper.