E Bike Developments - just in case the industry is listening

[Wiltshire Warrior]

It seems a bit daft that a £6K Ebike has the same tech all over it that normal Mtbs had in 2002.

So what would you like to see as technical improvements befitting the price tag?

My list is :

Braking - Sealed regenerating brake hubs - with Variable Regen -controlled by brake levers
Drive - Sealed shaft/belt drive - do away with the Chain, PLEASE!!!
Gears - Sealed and in the Motor unit with Electronic Control - or Automatic.

 

[Kangr]

internal gearbox deffinatly,
i like more battery capacity on shimano
electric dropper (i would like wireless but im not sure its worth it considering there will be a wire for power going to the battery anyway)
some kind of energy recouperation, maybe from suspension activity and braking.

 

[MattyB]

Forget regen, there is not enough mass associated with an ebike or rider for that to make a meaningful contribution. With current tech the weight of the regen kit would require far more energy to cart around than the energy it would feed back into the system. I agree on belt drives and gearboxes though; if (a big if) gearboxes can be made lighter and integrated with the motor at the BB that would be a huge win.

 

[Kangr]

wasnt there a bike at eurobike with a gearbox and motor in the same unit

 

[Eckythump]

This one incorporates some of your desires....

ION G16 EBOXX E14 • Nicolai Bicycles

 

[MattyB]

Not sure about that, but there was a Nicolai with a belt drive, Rohloff hub and electronic shifting though...

 

[MattyB]

Great minds...!

 

[Eckythump]

I’m holding out for an e version of the Pinion gearbox or similar. I think that will be the next big step forward on the drivetrain front.

 

[MattyB]

I’m holding out for an e version of the Pinion gearbox or similar. I think that will be the next big step forward on the drivetrain front.

Agreed, but it might need the next battery chemistry with higher energy density to go mainstream as well - I think there will be practical limitations on how light that motor/gearbox can be at the BB and still be durable, so lightening the battery to keep all up weight in check will be key.

 

[R120]

A decent gearbox bike is something that would benefit all mtb's, not just E-MTB, as removing weight and clutter from the rear end would be nothing but a good thing.

TBH i don't want my e-mtb to be a spaceship loaded with too much tech, i just want it to ride as close to a normal bike with a bit of assistance, though i also don't really care about it looking like a normal bike.

The bike at eurobike with the combined motor and gearbox was the Mubea. Although a lot of people tok the piss out of it, their are some very serious players behind Mubea, and its an interesting glimpse into the future. The gearbox is an Effigear, which is interesting bit of kit that can be shifted under load, unlike many similar systems:

Eurobike 2018: Mubea's visionary concept E-Bike – eMTB-News.de

Effigear⎮Bicycle Gearbox⎪Boîte de vitesses vélo⎪France | LA BOÎTE En

Continental actually already make an E-Bike motor with a built in CVT gearbox, and Gates drive but it is for city bikes, they launched it earlier this year:

First ride: Continental 48V mid motor system with automatic gearing

 

[MattyB]

...Continental actually already make an E-Bike motor with a built in CVT gearbox, and Gates drive but it is for city bikes, they launched it earlier this year:

First ride: Continental 48V mid motor system with automatic gearing


View attachment 5508

I actually had a quick ride on the Continental at this time last year at the NEC. At that point it was, well... not very good. At all. Jerky shifting and just felt unrefined. They acknowledged it was not yet fully ready for sale at that point though.

 

[R120]

I don't know how many of you have ridden non MTB e-bikes, but some of the "normal" e-bikes out there are incredibly resolved, and probably a generation ahead of E-MTB's in terms of user experience, by that i mean integration of software, riding experience and user friendly ness.

We have a Bergamont E-Ville DI2 in the family, its a hybrid, but the way everything works together is another level from any E-MTB i have ridden. It obviously a far simpler design in terms of not having to accommodate all the thing that make a good mtb on top of integrating a motor, but the Alfine DI2 hub is integrated into the bosch hardware/software, and it is a bike you just get on and ride and don't have to think about anything.

Interestingly the Bosch motor on it has very little if any resistance beyond the cut off speed, and way less noisy than on Bosch E-MTB's i have tried.

It is by far the best e-bike i have ever ridden, and the build quality from Bergamont is something else.

 

[Gary]

Braking - Sealed regenerating brake hubs - with Variable Regen -controlled by brake levers - TOO HEAVY, terrible performance and very little regen gain ie. Pointless
Drive - Sealed shaft/belt drive - do away with the Chain, PLEASE!!! -Belt = massively unreliable bearing killer.
Gears - Sealed and in the Motor unit with Electronic Control - or Automatic.- TOO HEAVY and as for Automatic? No thanks. Why would anyone want automatic gears on a mountainbike?

Seriously, there's probably an electric moped out there for you if you want all this shit.

 

[OldBean]

Gearbox or system to get all that derailleur gubbins higher off the ground.....I’m fed up always having to untangle grass and brambles to say nothing about mud..clay ?poo from the system.
.Also shorter cranks would reduce pedal strikes.
Otherwise Keep It Simple

 

[Slowroller]

Gearboxes are the future unless you obsess with weight. Pinons last literally forever, and only get better with age. 10-15 years and going strong with only an occasional oil change is common. I'd happily give up my fragile and very expensive derailleurs and cassettes for the slight weight penalty if a mainstream maker switched over.

 

[R120]

I always wish Honda had stayed in the game, my understanding of their "gearbox" systems was that it was essentially a derailleur housed above BB. For me the appeal is losing weight off the back end, i love Nicolai's but the idea of sticking a HAF Rolhoff on the back wheel is not one i would be tempted by

 

[Doomanic]

Freaky!

 

[R120]

I just hope there is some bored engineer in the Honda skunk works division who has stumbled across the DH bike in the back of some warehouse, and thought to himself, hmm, perfect space for a battery right there on the downtube . . and embarked on a diy projetc

 

[Kangr]

From what i understand the Honda bikes were destroyed after they finished there DH program.
I think one might have been stolen so it might still be out there.

 

[R120]

Minnar has one minus the gearbox in his shop, no way Honda haven't got a couple stowed away

 

[Gary]

Honda skunk works division

We can only dream of how good a bong shed HONDA could build

 

[Slowroller]

Hmm, another contender. 12 speed, 3.9kg, 250w, 70nm

Quartz, transmission for electric bikes. | kervelo

 

[MattyB]

Hmm, another contender. 12 speed, 3.9kg, 250w, 70nm

Quartz, transmission for electric bikes. | kervelo

Looks promising, though the battery is a bit small for our purposes. Amazing weight for a full gearbox and motor though.

 

[Slowroller]

Looks promising, though the battery is a bit small for our purposes. Amazing weight for a full gearbox and motor though.

I would imagine that they'd develop whatever battery the bike partner wanted. None of these might ever mature enough to be a force on the market, but you can be sure other manufacturers are already working on it. KMC has a 10,000km ebike chain they released, however only for internally geared rear hubs. The offset using a der and cassette is the weak link in a bike drive train. With a straight chainline, chains and cogs can be wider and stronger, or a belt.

Dropping the cassette and der will lose 500-600gr, so if they can keep their weight @ what a conventional motor weighs, it looks even better.

Stronger rear wheels too now that I think about it

 

[Mabman]

Bike EU

"The fully sealed Mubea drivetrain comes with some remarkable features like the top performance of up to 4 kW , traction-uninterrupted shifting under load , low maintenance thanks to oil lubrication , high level comfort and optimal control . Thanks to its compact size it is easy to integrate this pure automotive technology into bike frames .”

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Forget regen, there is not enough mass associated with an ebike or rider for that to make a meaningful contribution. With current tech the weight of the regen kit would require far more energy to cart around than the energy it would feed back into the system. I agree on belt drives and gearboxes though; if (a big if) gearboxes can be made lighter and integrated with the motor at the BB that would be a huge win.

For regen I mean a simple improvment to the hub below to give it variable resistance to recharge and brake the bike for 90% of the braking required and small back up disc rotors and lightweight calipers - also being able to vary the distribution of the hub regen braking Vs the disc braking would be nice also.

Exposure Revo Dynamo Hub | Tredz Bikes

 

[Gary]

A dynamo hub only produces a tiny current to power led lights.
You'd be lucky if it could charge your phone nevermind give anything of significance back to the Ebike battery.

If you're sugesting what I think you are with an internal hub brake AND an external disc brake working together along with some sort of regen device it's a ridiculous massively complicated idea. Not to mention being hugely heavier for a poorer braking system.

Learning to brake less and more efficiently will save your battery (and brake pads) far more than any of your ideas.

 

[Mabman]

My road bikes have regen due to the fact they have Direct Drive motors. As noted there is not enough mass to make a difference with range but it is very handy for use as a drag brake, mine are front hub motors so it effects the front wheel, that I use all the time. It doesn't apply enough braking power to bring the bike to a stop but it does slow the bike down effectively enough when approaching a stop and holding back speed on a fast dh. Although a small amount of energy is fed back into the system it isn't enough to affect range by much.

Mid drive type bikes will never have regen capability and those dyno hubs as noted won't do anything more than add weight and complexity.

 

[tomato paste]

Bump.

Anyone heard rumors of upcoming changes for 2020 models to include internal gears?

 

[nickB]

All these ideas of regenerative braking, transmissions, etc. all add weight and complexity that is not worth having on the present generation bikes - too much weight and drag. Chains and derailleurs may seem archaic but they are efficient, lightweight, easy to replace/repair, cost effective, etc.
Battery tech. may evolve in time. I think the biggest benefit is weight saving of bike, motor & batteries - the fazua idea! - I expect high end makes like Santa Cruz and Yeti to adopt this type of system when they eventually get into EBikes!
There was an eccentric guy around here years back who had a home made Ebike and he towed a small trailer with a Honda Generator strapped on - when the battery got low he turned on the generator! It worked but he had a fear of being flattened by the generator if he ever fell off!
Maybe some one will com up with solar panel helmets?