Dji avinox- Amflow

[#mitch]

In the video I watched by DC Rainmaker he quoted 400% assistance.

I know this probably will not be a super popular sediment here but I find it crazy that we allow these companies to dictate how we use these bikes. In America going from a class 1 to 3 is just that 20mph to 28mph limit, but I never heard of anyone about to get any of these companies to supply the firmware to allow that change. Not to mention if I'm riding on my land, there's no need for the class 1 restriction in that case. IMO should be as simple as going into the app, and agreeing to some terms like the company is not to be held accountable for the rider's actions. Then allowing the user to set the restrictions that follow laws or none for private land use.

As for the wattage seems they only care about the rated wattage, I'm still waiting for the day be see one of these companies offer a super boost mode with some outrageously high power output for like 5 seconds. Everyone seems to be really hyped on the 1kw claimed peak but that isn't really much higher than current motors, and also highly depends on how they measure that wattage. Is it at the battery or at the motor? For example, Bosch claims their gen 4 cx peaks at 600w but independent testing from ebike-mtb found it was around 750w at the motor. Assume a 85% efficiency and that could be around 900w at the battery.

I'm glad they finally upping the charge rate of emtb batteries. Crazy how low the current packs are when the cells inside are easily rated for a 1 hour charge (1c charge rate). Newer cells are even around the 3c rate now with some even higher, although I have no clue what cells they are using. One other feature I was really hoping to see more of was USB C charging on the battery. Current standards allow up to 240w, would be really cool to use the same cable / charger I do for my phone, laptop, headphones etc for my bike battery.

Personally I agree 100% on the speed restriction thing. As you say not a popular statement around here.

 

[mastakilla]

In the video I watched by DC Rainmaker he quoted 400% assistance.

I know this probably will not be a super popular sediment here but I find it crazy that we allow these companies to dictate how we use these bikes. In America going from a class 1 to 3 is just that 20mph to 28mph limit, but I've never heard of anyone getting any of these companies to supply the firmware to allow that change. Not to mention if I'm riding on my land, there's no need for the class 1 restriction in that case. IMO should be as simple as going into the app, and agreeing to some terms like the company is not to be held accountable for the rider's actions. Then allowing the user to set the restrictions that follow laws or none for private land use.

As for the wattage seems they only care about the rated wattage, I'm still waiting for the day be see one of these companies offer a super boost mode with some outrageously high power output for like 5 seconds. Everyone seems to be really hyped on the 1kw claimed peak but that isn't really much higher than current motors, and also highly depends on how they measure that wattage. Is it at the battery or at the motor? For example, Bosch claims their gen 4 cx peaks at 600w but independent testing from ebike-mtb found it was around 750w at the motor. Assume a 85% efficiency and that could be around 900w at the battery.

I'm glad they finally upping the charge rate of emtb batteries although agree surprised they stuck with the lower 36v pack. Crazy how low the current packs charge when the cells inside are easily rated for a 1 hour charge (1c charge rate). Newer cells are even around the 3c rate now with some even higher, although I have no clue what cells they are using. One other feature I was really hoping to see more of was USB C charging on the battery. Current standards allow up to 240w, would be really cool to use the same cable / charger I do for my phone, laptop, headphones etc for my bike battery.

The restriction is mandatory from the government. There is nothing they can do about having that in place. What they can control is not putting difficult to defeat antitamper on the motor and allowing it to be easily derestricted. I wont buy an ebike that cant be derestricted and hopefully this one will be no different than the rest. That is where bosch has gone wrong with that 504 error put a lot of people off on their product dealing with that nonsense. Not even sure what their motivation was to do that. I mean specialized never did so it doesnt seem like their hand was forced by legislatiion.

 

[kenobinai]

I personally think this will send shockwaves and manufacturers will wake up or "die".
DJi knocked it out of the park in all fronts, they didn't just produce one thing that was better. Every single aspect of what they released is better. Motor, batteries, software, ...

Also excited to have some serious software around it, could never understand why an e-bike had to have such limited software when you're (also) sitting on top of a computer with a ton of sensors and connectivity.

 

[Rando_12345]

Yes, quite excited for the software also. I recently changed from a GoPro to a DJI action 4, the image quality is pretty similar, the software blows gopro way out the window: less lag, more responsive touch, phone app that actually connects to the camera!

On the podcast Doddy was saying they were planning a new release that was much easier to realize than others, do we think this new mondraker might be a DJI bike?

 

[Bengy22]

The restriction is mandatory from the government. There is nothing they can do about having that in place. What they can control is not putting difficult to defeat antitamper on the motor and allowing it to be easily derestricted. I wont buy an ebike that cant be derestricted and hopefully this one will be no different than the rest. That is where bosch has gone wrong with that 504 error put a lot of people off on their product dealing with that nonsense. Not even sure what their motivation was to do that. I mean specialized never did so it doesnt seem like their hand was forced by legislatiion.

I know they have to sell them with the restriction but I don't see any reason they can't supply the firmware after purchase to change the limiters speed. As I said before, there are reasons one would want to change the limiter that is still legal. In the US changing to class 3 speeds, or completely removed when on private land. But I also agree, I don't see any reason why they have to crack down hard on those using derestrictors, although I don't even believe those should be a thing in the first place

 

[Gareth]

What they can control is not putting difficult to defeat antitamper on the motor and allowing it to be easily derestricted. I wont buy an ebike that cant be derestricted and hopefully this one will be no different than the rest. That is where bosch has gone wrong with that

I think what Bosch and other manufacturers are doing is protecting their market in that respect. The vast vast majority of ebikes will be used on public roads and shared pathways etc. Therefore, to continue to be classified as bicycles they will need to continue to be protected.

There are already too many derestricted and non-type approved electric motorcycles flying about our towns and cities. There is the possibility if Bosch and others fail to make it difficult to derestrict pedelec ebikes then legislators may step in and change the market, and the days of ebikes being treated as bicycles could disappear – that would effectively almost kill the ebike market.

Anyway, that aside, (my bike is not de-restricted), what I want from new or future motors is reliability. And more than anything a motor that will keep the water out. The current crop of motors are something of a joke in that respect.

Motors that are serviceable, rebuildable and supported long term by manufacturers would be nice too.

 

[Bomble]

Yes, quite excited for the software also. I recently changed from a GoPro to a DJI action 4, the image quality is pretty similar, the software blows gopro way out the window: less lag, more responsive touch, phone app that actually connects to the camera!

On the podcast Doddy was saying they were planning a new release that was much easier to realize than others, do we think this new mondraker might be a DJI bike?

New Mondraker?

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

100% you cannot de-restrict a DJI. If you thought Bosch was tight, get ready for CIA-level security with DJI. Much like Tesla or Apple, DJI has prioritized a zero-hacking policy above all else, right from day 1. Note that they didn't even bother to put a janky tamper "resistant" magnet on the wheel - they have gear ratios and GPS to confirm the speed limit exactly. No need for screwy magnets.

But it's interesting that the discussion around this beautiful and capable bike just veered right off into de-restricting. We are fools indeed for somehow convincing ourselves that people riding uphill at 25.1 km/h are a deadly menace to society while those going downhill at 80 km/h are perfectly fine and legal.

The rule has good intentions. We don't want food delivery meth-heads racing thru Times Square at speeds beyond what a typical athlete might maintain on the open highway. But there needs to be a better way to define safety and legality for e-bikes than this primitive uphill speed limit rule. The good news is that DJI will likely be much more agile than most when it comes to deploying software updates if/when legal policies evolve.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I had a prototype since last year. This is the old frame and they made several changes since then. But this things is fast as fcuk and my enduro build (38mm 170 / DH tyres / Alu wheels / mullet) was 20.93KG with 600 battery.

 

[Rando_12345]

Damn that's good looking! So 22kg in the burliest build with an 800Wh battery, pretty much dream bike despite traditional drivetrain.

 

[Doomanic]

they have gear ratios and GPS to confirm the speed limit exactly. No need for screwy magnets.

Source?
That slotted disk looks very much like part of an optical sensor system as used in ABS systems and could be used to measure wheel speed.

 

[ficorama]

is it true that it has max power for a certain time or until it overheats? how much power does it deliver with the limit? if so i don't like it! because on my hill the turbo levo gen3 occasionally overheated!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

is it true that it has max power for a certain time or until it overheats? how much power does it deliver with the limit? if so i don't like it! because on my hill the turbo levo gen3 occasionally overheated!

The 120NM / 1000 watts is the boost setting that runs for 30 seconds. But it can immediately be activated again. No doubt it’ll throttle down at some point, but I’d need to test the final version more.

I have the final release bike coming in August.

 

[Iaink]

This could be a game changer depending what it is.. hopefully it has obstacle avoidance

I have been flying DJI drones commercially for over a decade (instagram snotbot) and have put their products through some serious abuse. If these bikes are half as good as their drones they will be a seriously reliable and tough bike

 

[ficorama]

The 120NM / 1000 watts is the boost setting that runs for 30 seconds. But it can immediately be activated again. No doubt it’ll throttle down at some point, but I’d need to test the final version more.

I have the final release bike coming in August.

honestly, you have 1000W but you don't!

it's similar to the bafang m820, you have full power in boost, but you can't pedal too hard..

and if the dji engine overheats and therefore reduces power, then that's not how it should be!
Bosch you drive from morning to night, uphill and downhill and always the same performance!

 

[Trailhound]

The video I recently watched on DJI, their new MTB motor and related components has taken over 1st place on my Gimme One List. What would you rather take on a Saturday afternoon drive in the country, VW Beatle or Porsche Carrera? I'm glad to finally see the Industry further embracing higher levels of power and range, and remain baffled by continued debate over smaller/lighter being a worthy option. There's a motor dude.. My 1200GS is 10 times the weight of my EMTB, but handles like a dream once in motion. Yeah sure, the choice is yours, but to me, this is No-Brainer.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Bosch you drive from morning to night, uphill and downhill and always the same performance!

Incorrect. Bosch also throttles back when heat builds up. I have seen Bosch’s guidance on airflow / heat to motors and how their software throttles power when temperature builds up.

 

[ficorama]

Incorrect. Bosch also throttles back when heat builds up. I have seen Bosch’s guidance on airflow / heat to motors and how their software throttles power when temperature builds up.

and the turbo levo gen3 overheats and loses power!
all engines overheat and lose power.

the newer the engines, the more they work outside the "safe zone".
it is probably possible to extract 1500W from a 2kg motor, but how long can it deliver that power.

The M820 works great with the e-road firmware, but when the e-mtb firmware is loaded there is nothing better, but the engine disconnects due to overheating, due to engine protection. dropping out at too high a cadence... 2.3kg and 75nm, 95nm for 20 sec.

compared to other systems, Bosch gives the most for the investment. it has enough power and is reliable.

it's not all about raw power! a lot is hidden behind the smoothness of the system. I have driven many, but Bosch is the most balanced.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Bosch you drive from morning to night, uphill and downhill and always the same performance!

all engines overheat and lose power.

From your post I assumed you meant Bosch doesn’t lose power when it gets hot.

 

[Trailhound]

Boost/Turbo. I think top power modes aren't well understood, or properly utilized by restricted thinking that they're just for steep climbs. I find most riding challenges are easier and more rewarding in the high power settings. The trick is to take it easy, pedal gingerly and be in the right gear. Think of it a tractor, utilizing torque over rpm. Voila! I also find range is scarcely effected at the end of the day by using Boost cross country, or even the flats, as one pedal stroke maintains speed and momentum that lower power setting require two or three to match.

 

[ficorama]

From your post I assumed you meant Bosch doesn’t lose power when it gets hot.

I can't claim that. it hasn't lost power for me so far.

 

[ficorama]

Boost/Turbo. I think top power modes aren't well understood, or properly utilized by restricted thinking that they're just for steep climbs. I find most riding challenges are easier and more rewarding in the high power settings. The trick is to take it easy, pedal gingerly and be in the right gear. Think of it a tractor, utilizing torque over rpm. Voila! I also find range is scarcely effected at the end of the day by using Boost cross country, or even the flats, as one pedal stroke maintains speed and momentum that lower power setting require two or three to match.

the engine will rarely overheat on flat ground. my problem, in the first 8 km of driving, I gain 1000-1200 meters of altitude. of 8 km, ascent 7 km. means engine under max load!

 

[Bengy22]

Source?
That slotted disk looks very much like part of an optical sensor system as used in ABS systems and could be used to measure wheel speed.

Exact thought I had. Could potentially be easier, just manufacture a cheap disc with less holes, makes the system believe the wheel is spinning slower. But my guess is that DJI might have some fancy tech, maybe traction control that detects rear wheel slippage and momentarily reduces motor assistance. Messing with that would surely mess with the tech

 

[G-Sport]

Exact thought I had. Could potentially be easier, just manufacture a cheap disc with less holes, makes the system believe the wheel is spinning slower. But my guess is that DJI might have some fancy tech, maybe traction control that detects rear wheel slippage and momentarily reduces motor assistance. Messing with that would surely mess with the tech

It looks like the disc has multiple little slots so it can detect the speed multiple times per wheel revolution, but there is also one big slot which would tell it complete when revolutions too. So just making a disc with fewer slots wouldn't work.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Yes the slotted disc is paired with an inductive pickup to give very high-resolution wheel speed information which could provide better hill-start and walk mode performance and perhaps even traction control options. These inductive wheels are used in every modern car engine and are inside most mid-drive e-bike motors for crank speed measurement. With 42 slots this system reads wheel travel in 55mm (2.1") increments.

It's possible they could misalign one of the slots to denote each full revolution but they probably don't need to. They're already advertising an easy switch to 27.5" wheels with a flip chip so they're surely confident that the system will detect any cheaters. Bosch already does tamper-detection by comparing pedal cadence to the factory programmed gear ratio range as well as using the phone app to tattle whenever possible. There's no reason DJI wouldn't use their headtube GPS to do the same.

 

[G-Sport]

.....It's possible they could misalign one of the slots to denote each full revolution but they probably don't need to....

I'm pretty sure they have, you can see a bigger slot on one of the videos

 

[Trailhound]

I know they have to sell them with the restriction but I don't see any reason they can't supply the firmware after purchase to change the limiters speed. As I said before, there are reasons one would want to change the limiter that is still legal. In the US changing to class 3 speeds, or completely removed when on private land. But I also agree, I don't see any reason why they have to crack down hard on those using derestrictors, although I don't even believe those should be a thing in the first place

Making life more difficult and less logical has been a government trait since inception. I agree Manufacturers and Engineers are adding to this stupidity by supporting restriction with monitoring software in order to what - void your warranty more easily? In the world of fast cars, motorcycles and boats, this BS isn't even debated. Go as fast as you can and keep trying to go faster is at the heart of it. On the subject of stupidity, could it be any more absurd being governed by law to have to hold the walk button on verses an on/off switch?

 

[Giox]

Impressive specs indeed, but what I really want is NOT more power, lighter weight, and reduced size, but simply a motor that can be repaired!! How does it comapre on that front?

It doesn't matter how well it's been built, eventually seals around the axle will fail, water gets in, then bearings and electronics start failing.

Simple answer: Polini

Motore Polini E-P3+

Polini Motori rivoluziona il concetto di pedalata assistita e presenta il motore Polini E-P3+ per e-bike. Un motore innovativo, di nuova generazione, con il segno + (PLUS) a indicare le novità e l’importante passo in avanti realizzato grazie alla continua analisi, l’attento studio e l’impegno...

www.poliniebike.com

 

[Onetime]

If it came with a derestrictable motor with MGU and belt drive, I’d be in. As of now, I’ll either get the Nicolai with the Pinion, or an equivalent long travel ebike with an MGU and belt drive. A Sonni with the pinion and a belt drive would be awesome, if it’s also able to be derestricted.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I'm pretty sure they have, you can see a bigger slot on one of the videos

The ZF motored Raymon certainly has a noticeable big slot, but it is a different size/shape ring than the DJI:

Odd that they're not incorporating the pattern directly into the brake rotor. And that they're not even agreeing upon a standardized ring diameter.