Levo Gen 2 Dispute with Specialized

[PanosSam]

@PanosSam I'm sure everyone can share some sympathy with you for having a bricked bike.

What you did is a creative solution, but not without risk.

However, to claim that Specialized have made a firmware upgrade with the intention of bricking people's bikes - who've made modifications outside of the guidelines, seems somewhat unreasonable.

Specialized are one of the more proactive companies with regard to firmware upgrades to improve performance, longevity, safety.

For instance when they introduced voltage compensation so the motor could pull higher amps at lower voltages so you still maintained the same performance throughout the ride.

It's possible that a firmware upgrade was made to monitor for current loss - which could have been traced to a potential fire risk for example. You couldn't expect a company not to implement something which increases safety just in case someone's made some third party modification to the standard wiring ? However, I'm not aware of the Mag S having any fuse which can be electrically blown on purpose when a fault is detected - like on some shimano batteries.

It's equally possible that they changed something to increase performance, but with your light modification, this blew a component on the PCB. There's also the possibility of unfortunate co-incidence.

Specialized, like nearly every company, only seem to do complete motor exchanges. That's a separate problem and yes, it sucks.

One advantage you do have is that a lot of Mag S motors fail, so there's a reasonable chance you might find a scrap one second hand and take the pcb out of that.

Also, if the motor happened to fail right after the update is an even bigger reason for Specialized to want to examine this closer and offer to replace under warranty. The fact that they include many safety precautions in their firmware means a failure like this should not happen just because a lamp such as mine was installed, unless they have made a mistake. The system should indicate that there is a fault, that should then be possible to reset by removing the offending device/accessory.

 

[Another One]

10 mins of my life wasted what a pointless thread, I agree with the manufacturer.

 

[urastus]

but with these motors there is no way to clear the bios and try again so force you to buy a new motor it is a fkn joke and take the pi$$

it's because of this that I wish we could download the updates and install them locally, not OTA.

 

[PanosSam]

10 mins of my life wasted what a pointless thread, I agree with the manufacturer.

Your comment is pointless, no one forced you to read through the thread.

 

[PanosSam]

@PanosSam I'm sure everyone can share some sympathy with you for having a bricked bike.

What you did is a creative solution, but not without risk.

However, to claim that Specialized have made a firmware upgrade with the intention of bricking people's bikes - who've made modifications outside of the guidelines, seems somewhat unreasonable.

Specialized are one of the more proactive companies with regard to firmware upgrades to improve performance, longevity, safety.

For instance when they introduced voltage compensation so the motor could pull higher amps at lower voltages so you still maintained the same performance throughout the ride.

It's possible that a firmware upgrade was made to monitor for current loss - which could have been traced to a potential fire risk for example. You couldn't expect a company not to implement something which increases safety just in case someone's made some third party modification to the standard wiring ? However, I'm not aware of the Mag S having any fuse which can be electrically blown on purpose when a fault is detected - like on some shimano batteries.

It's equally possible that they changed something to increase performance, but with your light modification, this blew a component on the PCB. There's also the possibility of unfortunate co-incidence.

Specialized, like nearly every company, only seem to do complete motor exchanges. That's a separate problem and yes, it sucks.

One advantage you do have is that a lot of Mag S motors fail, so there's a reasonable chance you might find a scrap one second hand and take the pcb out of that.

Do you have any suggestions where I might find such failed motors?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Do you have any suggestions where I might find such failed motors?

have you tried your bike shop..
or this:

Levo Gen 2 - Dispute with Specialized

Hi all, I thought I would share my experience with Specialized that has me fuming. I own a 2021 Turbo Levo that ran into some trouble just over a month ago when I updated the tcu with the latest firmware. Once the update was finished I of course turned the tcu on and immediately got an error...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[PanosSam]

have you tried your bike shop..
or this:

Levo Gen 2 - Dispute with Specialized

Hi all, I thought I would share my experience with Specialized that has me fuming. I own a 2021 Turbo Levo that ran into some trouble just over a month ago when I updated the tcu with the latest firmware. Once the update was finished I of course turned the tcu on and immediately got an error...

www.emtbforums.com

My bike shop unfortunately doesn’t have any.

 

[Mikerb]

My bike shop unfortunately doesn’t have any.

@Zimmerframe made a very important point which you may have missed. Whilst Spesh provide a warranty for the motor, that warranty is in effect with Brose and neither spesh retailers or Spesh themselves do anything with faulty Brose motors other than send them back to Brose. The agreement between Spesh and Brose is clearly that only Brose open and examine faulty motors ( albeit they liaise with Spesh). Brose are clearly also keen to ensure their motors are fully protected to avoid uneccessary warranty claims and whilst they allowed Spesh to write the software for the motor they have probably insisted on the relevant clause in the Spesh warranty that prohibits the installation of unauthorised parts.
You seem also unaware of the actions taken recently by a consortium consisting most of the main brands, to lock down their systems such that they cannot be tampered with. Whilst that is aimed primarilly at "hacking", it should also be remembered that safety is also a key concern given the potential volativity of lithium batteries ( another point @Zimmerframe made).

Im afraid you are making few friends here "barking at the moon" and insulting people in the process. You would be better accepting that you willingly negated your warranty and learn from your mistake.

Im not sure if you came on the forum for advice or for sympathy. If it was for advice then I suggest you repair whatever bridges you may have ( probably have?) burnt with your LBS/Spesh since they are in the best position to help you back onto the trails at least cost.

 

[PanosSam]

@Zimmerframe made a very important point which you may have missed. Whilst Spesh provide a warranty for the motor, that warranty is in effect with Brose and neither spesh retailers or Spesh themselves do anything with faulty Brose motors other than send them back to Brose. The agreement between Spesh and Brose is clearly that only Brose open and examine faulty motors ( albeit they liaise with Spesh). Brose are clearly also keen to ensure their motors are fully protected to avoid uneccessary warranty claims and whilst they allowed Spesh to write the software for the motor they have probably insisted on the relevant clause in the Spesh warranty that prohibits the installation of unauthorised parts.
You seem also unaware of the actions taken recently by a consortium consisting most of the main brands, to lock down their systems such that they cannot be tampered with. Whilst that is aimed primarilly at "hacking", it should also be remembered that safety is also a key concern given the potential volativity of lithium batteries ( another point @Zimmerframe made).

Im afraid you are making few friends here "barking at the moon" and insulting people in the process. You would be better accepting that you willingly negated your warranty and learn from your mistake.

Im not sure if you came on the forum for advice or for sympathy. If it was for advice then I suggest you repair whatever bridges you may have ( probably have?) burnt with your LBS/Spesh since they are in the best position to help you back onto the trails at least cost.

I appreciate your input, but maybe people failed to realise that ones frustration has a strong effect in that you essentially become angry at the wrong people. I apologise if I have offended anyone, that was definitely not my intention. All I wanted from my post is answers/suggestions as to why my motor failed from someone more knowledgeable in electronics/software because I don’t agree that it was my lamp’s fault and that the warranty still applies, but most people on here seem to be offended on behalf of Specialized because I’m out here complaining about them. Which all consumers have the right to do.

Also, why would Specialized not suggest that the motor be sent to Brose for repair, even if it’s out of warranty, since it’s possible to repair, but instead want you to replace the entire assembly? A repair, even though costly, would not cost as much as a replacement motor yet they still force you to replace the entire thing.

I was not aware of the consortium no, but it doesn’t make me glad that the entire system is locked like this.

 

[PanosSam]

try peter as might know someone over there that could sell you just the controller pcb.

eBike Motor Repairs & Servicing - Homepage

eBike Motor Parts Repairs & Servicing, (formally, Performance Line Bearings) has become the “go to place” for all your e-Bike motor repairs...

www.ebikemotorcentre.com

it is a long shot but worth a try.

Hi @shockwave ,

Sorry for the late reply, I completely missed your message. I will take a look, thnaks for the suggestion.

 

[boBE]

Now that this thread has settled down a bit here is my take on it.


I do not like what the manufacturers are doing but they are in a difficult place: the "right to repair" movement (US and UK) is forcing them to make service information and parts available to the consumer yet the regulations mandate that they make it almost impossible to modify the operational parameters of things like motors/controllers.


If we tap into the CAN bus they don't know what we have changed (even if it is nothing at all) so their easiest option is to brick the system. Repair/reprogram is costly, dodgy, time-consuming so they insist we buy a new motor so they know it is to specifications. Again, I don't like it but I understand why it is this way. If it is too easy to modify the system the government will make new regulations that will cost the manufacturers $$.


A Ford Mustang forum reflects similar problems: "tune" your powertrain control module and any remotely related repairs are not under warranty *plus* there is a risk of bricking, tow to the dealer, install a new module and pay a lot. As for commonality between systems, automotive is much better although it was not that way in the 1990s, maybe in time the bicycle industry will adopt some common electronic system standards.


What do we do? Push (our elected officials) for right to repair and electronic system standards?