Difficulty climbing!

[steve_sordy]

I ride a Focus Jam2, my first eBike and I’ve had it since Jan this year.

I read reports of emtb riders climbing near vertical ascents with great envy and I assumed that I would be able to do the same. Sadly not so!

If I try to climb anything steeper than I would have attempted on my clockwork bike, I fail. Sure, I've done some climbs on my emtb that I would not have attempted a year ago, but would have attempted three years ago. (Physical decline you see!)

I fail in various ways:
1. Rear wheel spin out and falling off backwards in a variety of painful ways.
2. Stalling and falling off backwards or sideways in a variety of painful ways.
3. Losing steering control and falling off in a variety of painful ways.

Each fail is usually accompanied by clutching in vain at trees and shrubs in a usually useless attempt to interrupt or slow my fall. Not very graceful or stylish. But so far, not too many witnesses!

As for No1, rear wheel spin out, I have not had that since changing the tyres.
As for No 2, I have tried a variety of techniques such as fast or slow approach, different gears, and different levels of boost. I have the occasional success that encourages me, but I'm getting badly shaken up from the falls.
As for No 3, I know that this is a technique fail. I need to get my weight forward to maintain front wheel contact with the trail. But I thought I’d got this technique sorted years ago!

It occurs to me that my suspension tune may be a factor. The suspension has both ends set to 28% sag, front standing in the attack position, rear seated. At the end of every ride the "O" rings always indicate that the shock has used up almost all, if not actually all its travel, whereas the fork varies between 50 and 70%. That says to me that I need to add some air spring volume spacers to the shock. I’ve done that before on other bikes to level out the travel. When I was a beginner at mtb, I had a bike where the shock was temporarily at 35% sag and the fork at 25% (I was experimenting). There was a climb that everyone but me could do. As soon as I reduced the shock sag to 25%, I went straight up the climb. Altering the shock, altered the bike geometry enough to make the difference. I am aware that Focus have the suspension design and shock tune set up in a specific way that they are proud of, so I have been taking some time to get used to it. On previous bikes I would have added some spacers before now, but apart from noticing the extra travel, it hasn't actually caused me any problems. Until now.

In the clockwork era, the only reason I failed on a climb that I attempted was lack of leg strength, or if it was just too technical for me. With the power of “e” behind me, why am I failing on smooth climbs?

I really did believe that I knew how to climb, but was just lacking leg strength. Seems not!
Any insights, tips, or techniques will be gratefully accepted.

 

[hemi.rokingi]

One thing I have found helpful on some climbs is to lower the saddle by about 1inch. Normally I would keep it high on a climb for maximum leg power... but with the power of the motor I can drop the saddle, which allows me to move my weight much more easily while maintaining power. It also makes an unplanned dismount a little easier...
Also - does your fork have a token you could remove instead of adding one to the shock?

 

[steve_sordy]

One thing I have found helpful on some climbs is to lower the saddle by about 1inch. Normally I would keep it high on a climb for maximum leg power... but with the power of the motor I can drop the saddle, which allows me to move my weight much more easily while maintaining power. It also makes an unplanned dismount a little easier...
Also - does your fork have a token you could remove instead of adding one to the shock?

Good suggestions, I had not thought of either of those. I will try/investigate.

I'm not convinced that lowering my saddle will help me climb, but it may help me dismount with more grace!

 

[Gary]

I read reports of emtb riders climbing near vertical ascents

Wherever you are reading this. Stop reading.
it's mainly bollocks.

if you really want to ride UP far steeper ascents. build an emtb frame with massively long chainstays and clearance for the widest grippiest rear tyre you can find.
bear in mind it'll handle like a pig everywhere else though.

 

[ka4564]

Agree with Gary - it's all about long chainstays. The Trek firefly 9 has had it's extended and climbs like a demon! but in my opinion the over all package is a fraction behind the Levo. Technique and knowing how your Levo handles will also help a little. but lenght is king!!

 

[mark.ai]

I don't know how steep the slopes you are going up are, but the things I do to keep my weight more central for increasing steepness are in order: lean forwards, move forwards on saddle, saddle down (all the way), stand up. If you are tipping off backwards then it's key to keep your weight forwards more in front of the rear wheel contact point. Moving the saddle down is a good one as it also has the effect of moving the saddle forward allowing you to stay seated (even if it feels ungainly). At some point you eventually have to stand up though in order to keep the weight forward. Here are some pictures to demonstrate (ignore that the rider isn't seated for the saddle up/down ones, but it allows the saddle position to be seen!):

A critical point is often when you go from seated to standing though (depending on the grip of the ground surface) - it can be easy to lose rear wheel traction and spin out, because you are both putting in a sudden burst of power and unweighting the rear wheel slightly.

On steep very loose surfaces I find it easiest to be in boost (for Shimano motor anyway) and just pedal lightly while seated (saddle down), as this gives a much smoother and more consistent power delivery, so there is less likelihood of wheel spin.

 

[highpeakrider]

@steve_sordy Might be helpful if we had a video of said falling off backwards for analysis ??

On my 2.8s at low pressures I’ve got up stuff I wouldn’t attempt on a mtb, but I have got one short rocky climb that always defeats me, I think it’s in my head that I can’t do it. ?

 

[steve_sordy]

Wherever you are reading this. Stop reading.
it's mainly bollocks.

if you really want to ride UP far steeper ascents. build an emtb frame with massively long chainstays and clearance for the widest grippiest rear tyre you can find.
bear in mind it'll handle like a pig everywhere else though.

"Near vertical ascents" was for dramatic effect. I have ridden short ones, where the initial energy and body movement has been sufficient, but longer ascents need a more nuanced approach.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I realised that steve.
There's in reality very little most Emtbs will help you climb that a fit skilled non-emtb rider couldn't manage without a motor.
Obvz the motor could allow a fit skillful rider to ride the same climbs without even raising their heart rate into their higher zones.
Where the motor really comes into it's own is making any climbs you struggle with easier. and technical low grip climbs where you need to hold good momentum far far easier.
I still push my Emtb a fair bit to access DH tracks as I feel proper crazy steep climbs I'd not manage on a normal bike are a bit of a waste of battery and kill range.

 

[steve_sordy]

Many thanks @mark.ai very helpful. I will try all of that.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have answered into Gary's quote.

Yeah. I realised that steve. awks!
There's in reality very little most Emtbs will help you climb that a fit skilled non-emtb rider couldn't manage without a motor. Well that is good to know, I can stop beating myself up now!
Obvz the motor could allow a fit skillful rider to ride the same climbs without even raising their heart rate into their higher zones. Or stop Alien bursting out of my kneecaps!
I still push my Emtb a fair bit to access DH tracks as I feel proper crazy steep climbs I'd not manage on a normal bike are a bit of a waste of battery and kill range. I have been tackling steep climbs that I would not have attempted on my clockwork bike because I had thought it was possible. Now I will be happy to tackle steep climbs that I would have done a few years ago, but can't do now, happy days!

I still mix with all of the guys I used to ride with on my clockwork bike, so I knowingly dial back the power of "e", especially on the climbs. So most of my climbing fails have been when riding solo, hence the lack of witnesses.

 

[steve_sordy]

No comment on the suspension imbalance then from anyone?

 

[Gary]

sorry mate. I ignored your suspension paragraph as I found it a bit all over the place. I'm tired though.

Firstly you mention your suspension tune when I think you might actually only mean "set-up" a tune is a very different thing to setting up pressures and adjusting rebound/compressuin dials/
Next you mention youe set-up but what you're saying is almost impossible to understand.
ie. I've no idea why anyone would measure front sag in the attack position but rear when seated.
you also seem to have some reason for thinking front suspension should be set up the same as rear. - it shouldn't. they do two (subtly) different jobs.

You'd actually need to set up your suspension incredibly badly to reduce the rear tyre grip and unbalance the bike so much that it climbed less well than a hardtail.
the fact that you seem happy enough with it after a ride tells me it's not probably set up absolutely horrendously. This doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. Far from it.

Being tired meant I also found your last reply within my quote in blue coloured font on a light blue/grey background a bit nippy to read. I'd prefer if you just split the quotes. your call though.

 

[Phill_B_34]

No comment on the suspension imbalance then from anyone?

For points 1 and 3....
See if you can find someone that will loan/hire you a Quarq ShockWiz (Quarq ShockWiz – Quarq ) or get a group of mates to buy a 'group' one.
The shop that setup my Fox shock and forks did a pretty good job of setting them for me, bike felt quite good first ride post upgrade.
But after a a couple of rides and fine tuning with the shockwiz (importantly, both fork and shock sorted to work together - would be great to have a shockwiz on both the fork and shock at the same time but had to setup up one at a time) the bike feels even more planted, less 'skippy' of bigger bumps, no pogo-ing after landing, etc - very confidence inspiring.
Climbing is way better than with the original suspension, rear doesn't squat too much while the front does get a bit 'light' but never out of control, rear just hooks up and drives (smooth pedal action helps a lot here too). Occasionally it'll break traction but doesn't spin out as it did with the org. shock, just grips and goes (this could simply be the org wasn't setup correctly - either way It's a good outcome!)

 

[All Mountain Coaching]

I rent out a shockwiz.

 

[steve_sordy]

I rent out a shockwiz.

That is well worth knowing. I'll PM you when I'm ready.

 

[steve_sordy]

For points 1 and 3....
See if you can find someone that will loan/hire you a Quarq ShockWiz (Quarq ShockWiz – Quarq ) or get a group of mates to buy a 'group' one.
The shop that setup my Fox shock and forks did a pretty good job of setting them for me, bike felt quite good first ride post upgrade.
But after a a couple of rides and fine tuning with the shockwiz (importantly, both fork and shock sorted to work together - would be great to have a shockwiz on both the fork and shock at the same time but had to setup up one at a time) the bike feels even more planted, less 'skippy' of bigger bumps, no pogo-ing after landing, etc - very confidence inspiring.
Climbing is way better than with the original suspension, rear doesn't squat too much while the front does get a bit 'light' but never out of control, rear just hooks up and drives (smooth pedal action helps a lot here too). Occasionally it'll break traction but doesn't spin out as it did with the org. shock, just grips and goes (this could simply be the org wasn't setup correctly - either way It's a good outcome!)

I'm aware of the potential benefits of the ShockWiz, but so far I've managed without one. Depending upon how I get on with the advice given on here, plus my own plans, I may give one a try.

 

[Swissrob]

There is something to be said for shuttling a few smaller climbs until you get it nailed. But take your tools with you. I would move the seat forward and lower the brake levers so your weight is naturally more forward, it's easier to lean back to regain traction than trying to get the front wheel down. Are you riding cleats, then try flats. Use the lockout to see if that helps a bit.

Give yourself some time and keep doing the same climb as you adjust different bits. I find it better to climb in trail and have turbo in reserve if I need it at the top rather than attempting a gear change when I am so close to the top.

 

[steve_sordy]

sorry mate. I ignored your suspension paragraph as I found it a bit all over the place. I'm tired though.

Firstly you mention your suspension tune when I think you might actually only mean "set-up" a tune is a very different thing to setting up pressures and adjusting rebound/compressuin dials/
Next you mention youe set-up but what you're saying is almost impossible to understand.
ie. I've no idea why anyone would measure front sag in the attack position but rear when seated.
you also seem to have some reason for thinking front suspension should be set up the same as rear. - it shouldn't. they do two (subtly) different jobs.

You'd actually need to set up your suspension incredibly badly to reduce the rear tyre grip and unbalance the bike so much that it climbed less well than a hardtail.
the fact that you seem happy enough with it after a ride tells me it's not probably set up absolutely horrendously. This doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. Far from it.

Being tired meant I also found your last reply within my quote in blue coloured font on a light blue/grey background a bit nippy to read. I'd prefer if you just split the quotes. your call though.

My use of words ie "set up" vs "tune". Yes, I can see the difference. I'll endeavour to use the correct terms in future. Thanks.

I included how I had set up the suspension as I thought it would be useful content and may inform the responses.
When I got my first FS, I was told to set up the fork in the attack position and the shock in the seated position. This was later confirmed in magazines that I read at the time (this would be about ten years ago). This made perfect sense to me because, as as you say, the fork and shock have different duties. I started with 25% at each end as that was what was generally advised and then I went from there. I tried a variety of combinations of low sag and high sag, and mixed combinations and took my guide from how the bike rode. I took a keen interest in setting up the suspension and eventually started to use tokens, spacers, rings (whatever). Sometimes the fork needed the spacers, sometimes the shock. But my guide was always how the bike performed. Setting the sag the way I described always made perfect sense to me. After my set up, if I measured the fork sag from the seated position it would be less of course. Likewise, if I measured the shock sag whilst standing it would be less too. But what matters is how the bike feels when I ride it. By the way, I don't set up the front and rear of the bike to be the same. As I said, I start off with the same %sag (standing fork, seated shock - therefore different), I put the compression damping if any in the middle and the rebound a third away from fast. Then I ride to see how it feels and then modify to give what I want. Eventually, when I run out of dials to move and combinations to try, I sometimes find that the shock or fork is going through its travel too rapidly for my taste. It's at that point that I consider adding spacers. Someone on here suggested that instead of adding a spacer to the shock, I should consider removing one from the fork. The advice was well meant, but all that would do is to make the fork less progressive, when what I want is for the shock to be more progressive (or the other way around).

I am not a suspension expert by any means and apart from reading about suspension setting I have had no formal training, therefore I accept that my feel for how the bike should "be" may be wrong in a purist sense. Of that I have no idea. What I do know is that what I do works for me.

The bit about setting up the suspension incredibly badly to climb worse than a hardtail was maybe a reference to when I related the story of a FS that had been 25% on the front (while standing) and 35% on the back (while seated). I agree that was set up badly, but I was a beginner at it and I was experimenting. I only mentioned it by way of illustrating my point about my bike's shock using up too much travel and that I suspected it might be a contributory factor to my climbing problem.

Including my responses inside your quote was an attempt at brevity. It looks fine on my laptop, but I had not considered that it may not look fine on your device. So I won't do it in future, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Gary]

Shockwiz gives suggested settings based on parameters (styles) and can't adjust for personal preference. There is a "custom" style though so if you know what you're doing and what you like you can set that up to find your optimum settings.
Given the knowledge and understanding needed to use "custom" sytle settings properly does beg the question. Why use a shockwiz at all and not use that knowledge and understanding ultimately going on "feel"
Shockwiz doesn't have a "style" setting for optimising climbing performance. So to do so you need to use "custom" and understand the effects of what each parameter you alter.
At the end of the day it's just a pressure meter/recording device with algorythm software to analyse the results and give suggestions.

There is something to be said for shuttling a few smaller climbs until you get it nailed.

"shuttling" climbs?

I'm definitely using this.



Thank you

I get that you mean sessioning/sectioning climbs, and agree that's definitely the way to improve your technical climbing ability...
Walking a climb to spot lines, features, the lay of the land and inspect the surface and conditions as well as alternate lines/routes grip points, cambers, compressions etc, you may not spot while climbing is als invaluable. Sort of the reverse of a DH track walk. and what all trials riders do.
The thought of a day "shutling" down a fire road to do a climb over and over made me laugh.

Lock out won't help unless the climb is completely smooth
Don't mess up your brake lever position
and don't switch to flats if you ride clipped in.

Actively practice body weight positioning for increased grip/stability.
not popping the front wheel while maintaining maximum rear tyre grip is a balancing act.
the shorter the bike the more difficult it is.
Also spend time learning to time pedal strokes precisely, ratcheting when needed. (E bikes are great for this) and thinking about optimum gearing/cadence.
as above rather than change gear on a difficult climb use your mode switch.

But above all have fun shuttling those climbs.

 

[steve_sordy]

There is something to be said for shuttling a few smaller climbs until you get it nailed. But take your tools with you. I would move the seat forward and lower the brake levers so your weight is naturally more forward, it's easier to lean back to regain traction than trying to get the front wheel down. Are you riding cleats, then try flats. Use the lockout to see if that helps a bit.

Give yourself some time and keep doing the same climb as you adjust different bits. I find it better to climb in trail and have turbo in reserve if I need it at the top rather than attempting a gear change when I am so close to the top.

Thanks for the pointers.
I'll be honest with you - I won't be moving the seat forward. I have knee problems and a long upper body. I need the seat rearwards to get everything inn the correct place for minimum pain! Also, my levers are all in a good place and others have confirmed that as well. I'm on flats after trying cleats for 18 months (years ago now, I admit).
I like the advice about climbing in trail and keeping boost in reserve. I''ll give that a go, thanks!

 

[Gary]

When I got my first FS, I was told to set up the fork in the attack position and the shock in the seated position. This was later confirmed in magazines that I read at the time (this would be about ten years ago).

Many magazines talk a load of pish. and worse still. Change what they say entirely based on current #fashions and new product. Certain journos are really really bad for this.

do yourself a favour and spend some time reading (and watching) everything I posted in the suspension sticky at the top of the general Emtb forum.
it's all easy to understand (in small chunks)
and should help your understanding tons.

If you want to go with sat down for rear, stood up for front sag that's entirely your call.
so long as your position is repeatable it'll still give you good data to go from.
it just won't make any sense at all to me. (or anyone else really)

 

[steve_sordy]

.............

do yourself a favour and spend some time reading (and watching) everything I posted in the suspension sticky at the top of the general Emtb forum.
it's all easy to understand (in small chunks)
and should help your understanding tons.

If you want to go with sat down for rear, stood up for front sag that's entirely your call.
so long as your position is repeatable it'll still give you good data to go from.
it just won't make any sense at all to me. (or anyone else really)

I went to the suspension sticky that you posted and found the suspension setting series from Bike Rumour there at the top of the list. That was first posted by me to help someone else on the Forum and you acknowledge the source. I opened it up to refresh my memory on what it said about setting sag. It recommends standing for DH and bike park days, and seated for XC and every day riding. But it does not recommend setting the same sag at both ends, quite right too if you are either sitting or standing for both. The advice given varies in detail but it says that the fork sag should be less than the shock sag, by typically 10% less, or even more. That is what I would get if I measured my fork sag when sitting after having set it up when standing in the attack position. So I feel OK with all of that.

I then looked at Seb Scott's video (which you said was a good guide) on setting up your suspension in ten minutes. He very clearly shows setting shock sag whilst seated and fork sag while standing. This is typical of the advice I got when first starting up. I came across the Bike Rumour series many years later and nothing in there disagrees with Seb Scott. It's all about establishing a good base position and taking it from there.
Setting shock sag while seated and fork sag while in the attack position may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me and Seb Scott. There are others out there that have different views to you, it does not make them wrong or in even need of tons of understanding.

 

[Gary]

Yeah.
The post was meant as a general suspension set-up info for beginners
I disagree with using both of those methods (from a consistency point of view).
which is why I posted the link to the Vorsprung video as steve expalins properly WHY you're setting up sag and WHAT it is actually showing you.

it doesn't actually matter how you measure your own sag so long as you're consistent (and you don't go sharing your % values with others who use an entirely different measuring procedure).

I happen to own 6 FS bikes and 3 hardtails.
consistency matters to me (possibly more than most)
Steve sets up hundreds of bikes suspension each season. it matters to him even more.

There are many things Seb Stott has stated about bikes i don't agree with. Neither of us are actually wrong.

I must admit to only skim reading parts of the Bike rumour article before posting it (a pitfall of already knowing how to set-up suspension I suppose). But i do remember Duncan riffle's input on it. I know for a fact Duncan being an ex-WC DH racer sets up his rear sag standing on the pedals not sat down. For one thing DH saddles are not even really designed for sitting on in an efficient position. but for another i've seen it with my own eyes. Sorry if I missed somewhere else where it was stated sag should be measured seated.

 

[Swissrob]

Thanks for the pointers.
I'll be honest with you - I won't be moving the seat forward. I have knee problems and a long upper body. I need the seat rearwards to get everything inn the correct place for minimum pain! Also, my levers are all in a good place and others have confirmed that as well. I'm on flats after trying cleats for 18 months (years ago now, I admit).
I like the advice about climbing in trail and keeping boost in reserve. I''ll give that a go, thanks!

Yes session not shuttle, beer and forums not good!
Set up of cockpit and suspension is (as Gary had said) is personal so no one size fits all and is always a compromise between setting up for climbing and downhill performance. I am no expert but what you have written above gives you a clue as to the potential issues. What I meant was sessioning a climb and adjusting everything to suit climbing only to get a feel for what is possible and what you need to compromise eg put your seat well forward (ignoring your knees for the moment) does it help? - yes? then an extra long seat so you can sit on the front for climbing might be the answer. I have a 3 position lockout on the rear and full lockout I agree is not helpful so often on a tough climb will use the middle position just to keep the rear a bit steadier to overcome my crap technique, running less sag (more air pressure) also helps me but then the compromises comfort so not an option.

It is probably wrong on a number of levels (and visually crap) but I use my hiking boots for riding as the sole is really stiff and they grip the pedals well, as they have a small heel it allows me to secure my feet further forward for climbing again getting the weight forward, the rest of the time position is normal. I rode cleats for 20yrs so when I started on the EMTB it felt weird placing my feet further forward and worrying about slipping off the front of the pedal, the heel helped with this.

 

[steve_sordy]

Reading the Vorsprung video that Gary added to the sticky in the suspension set up thread. The guy in it recommends standing on the pedals with no hand pressure on the bars. This ensures that all the rider's weight goes through the BB . He says this to ensure that he is setting up sag in exactly the same way every time. Obviously he will get different sag settings to anyone using any other methods. But it doesn't matter, what matters is that the way it is done is repeatable. For someone like him doing this for a living it is important. But not so much for me because once its set I play around with the settings until I'm happy. Only then do I record the settings; psi (not sag as that is easily repeatable), rebound, and so forth.

Out of interest, whilst out today, I recorded the % sag in the above recommended way and compared it to what I'd got by my method (and Seb Scott's). What I started with was 28% at each end (attack pos for the fork and seated for the shock). What I got was 22% for the fork and 20% for the shock (standing, no hands). I didn't repeat the measurement to see if there was any variation, I just wanted a benchmark.