Derestrict should be band

[stiv674]

Thanks Dax thats the answer I get from most riders who are against derestricting, they are happy to ride there bikes above 15mph as long as its under their own power. This is not breaking the law, but what actually is the law for? It cant be a speed limit for bikes because a strong rider can and does take his bike well above 15mph, roadies for instance, crosscountry racers, downhill riders and racers. so is the law just for weak riders to stop them achieving the same performance/speed as strong riders on ebikes? or what?
We all know (I hope) that the speed limit of a bike, ebike or normal bike is limited by two things gearing and rider power.
so what is the law for then and why is it different in other parts of the world

On road on my Levo HT I regularly go past the limit, maybe around 17/18mph but off road I'm not bothered staying at the limit as I'm never in a hurry, the off road riding is for enjoyment and the road more for fitness.

As for the reason for the limit, I think it makes sense for throttle e-bikes but not for pedal assist, I don't think the people who decide on these laws know enough about the different types of e-bikes.

 

[GrahamPaul]

so what is the law for then and why is it different in other parts of the world

Because different parts of the world are different, maybe?

Don't forget that, with the exception of the UK, most of western Europe has a very well developed network of urban and rural cycle paths - which it is (often) mandatory to use instead of being on the road. By far the majority of e-bike use is in towns for commuting. E-bike commuters are outselling all other types of e-bike in western Europe.

That 25km/hr limit is probably quite reasonable for those urban conditions, which is where the majority of e-bike riders now are, as safety to pedestrians is a prime concern (for anyone who has ever tried to ride in Holland during the rush hour, that 25km/hr is a dream). Yes, you can get arseholes speeding along on clockwork bikes being arseholes, but they are few and far between because they have to use their own muscles. European laws are set on an EU wide basis and so there are going to be compromises (and that's on both sides. Some countries really want registration plates and insurance for all powered bikes).

As I understand it, countries such as the USA do not have a dedicated, separate cycleway network, and so it seems only logical/reasonable that, for safety reasons (or no safety concerns as no co-existing pedestrians), they should be able to have motor support levels set for higher speed.

There's nothing to stop you riding derestricted bikes off-road - except, maybe, in Britain, where you are are restricted to bridleways, which are part of the highway laws. Then you are just restricted to private land. But surely your maximum speed for road use is something to campaign about on a country basis and not an international basis. Given Britain's love/hate relationship with the bicycle and with HSE regulations, I wish you luck with that.

 

[GrahamPaul]

Charlie Alliston was allegedly riding at 18mph on a fixed-gear bike with no front brakes before he collided with Kim Briggs, a mother of two, as she crossed a busy road in central London in February 2016.

I'll leave you to argue about that one when it comes to discussing the merits, or otherwise, of restricting motor support speeds. Arseholes will always be arseholes, but having had a mate whose shoulder was broken by a speeding cyclist as he got off a tram outside the office, I can fully understand the restrictions.

 

[GrahamPaul]

I don't think the people who decide on these laws know enough about the different types of e-bikes.

I think we need @Gary to give his informed opinions on the differences between All-Mountain and XC bikes

Let's face it, it's a bicycle with an electric motor as far as the law is concerned. Any further attempts at definition of different nuances are a rabbit hole for earning lawyers huge bucks(sic!).

 

[ccrdave]

Charlie Alliston was allegedly riding at 18mph on a fixed-gear bike with no front brakes before he collided with Kim Briggs, a mother of two, as she crossed a busy road in central London in February 2016.

I'll leave you to argue about that one when it comes to discussing the merits, or otherwise, of restricting motor support speeds. Arseholes will always be arseholes, but having had a mate whose shoulder was broken by a speeding cyclist as he got off a tram outside the office, I can fully understand the restrictions.

yeah but that guy also didnt have any brakes, and like I said before some riders are perfectly capable of propelling their ebike well above the cut off point and I agree its stupid to ride at speed in a place where there are a lot of pedestrians but its not illegal...yet

 

[GrahamPaul]

yeah but that guy also didnt have any brakes, and like I said before some riders are perfectly capable of propelling their ebike well above the cut off point and I agree its stupid to ride at speed in a place where there are a lot of pedestrians but its not illegal...yet

But that's the whole point!!! Currently damage and death is only being inflicted on pedestrians in rare circumstances by total arses. Higher motor support levels on e-Bikes will result in more damage to more people because folks will ride at the maximum support speed - just because they can. It's how human nature works.

How long before your Daily Mail gets all e-bikes licenced, insured and restricted to the roads? Do you really, really want that?

 

[ccrdave]

If the main danger area is the roads why would they restrict them to the roads?

 

[ccrdave]

in the UK we have road speed limits, that applies to all traffic, as far as I know a cyclist travelling at 30mph in a 30mph zone is not braking the law and pedestrians are just as much at danger from him as they are to car drivers. As for our cycleways I dont know if there is a speed limit on them maybe there should be

 

[GrahamPaul]

If the main danger area is the roads why would they restrict them to the roads?

You've lost me there. The main danger area is in coexistance of bikes and pedestrians. E-bikes being classed as motorbikes will restrict them to the highway. Forget bike lanes, forget town centres. You're a motorbike. Good luck with that on forestry paths.

 

[GrahamPaul]

in the UK we have road speed limits, that applies to all traffic, as far as I know a cyclist travelling at 30mph in a 30mph zone is not braking the law and pedestrians are just as much at danger from him as they are to car drivers. As for our cycleways I dont know if there is a speed limit on them maybe there should be

As I said above, it's country dependent. The UK does not have a properly developed cycle path system - especially not in towns - and so you tend to only view your bike use through the lens of being a road user and not as a someone sharing space with pedestrians.

 

[ccrdave]

well in the forest i live in there are speed limits on the forest tracks but only for motor vehicles, which are forestry commision workers only, there is one section near my house where a biker (ebike or non ebike) can hit 30mph easily, the forest tracks are shared, walkers,cyclists, horseriders

 

[ccrdave]

As I said above, it's country dependent. The UK does not have a properly developed cycle path system - especially not in towns - and so you tend to only view your bike use through the lens of being a road user and not as a someone sharing space with pedestrians.

hmm we do have a very comprehensive cycle route in the uk, some on road some on dedicated paths both in towns and in the countryside. in the small town where i live they have just extended the cyclepaths by 6-7 miles

 

[GrahamPaul]

well in the forest i live in there are speed limits on the forest tracks but only for motor vehicles, which are forestry commision workers only, there is one section near my house where a biker (ebike or non ebike) can hit 30mph easily, the forest tracks are shared, walkers,cyclists, horseriders

I still don't think I am making myself clear: you are talking of one forestry track. However, most west European cities have hundreds of kilometres of cyclepath which are separate from the roads. These are often shared with pedestrians - sometimes with no delineating markings. During rush hours and school runs, these are busy. Speed is limited by muscle power and the desire not arrive at the start of the day as a sweaty blob. This is where the restriction on supported speed is aimed. EMTB is a fringe activity, but we are caught up in the general e-bike regulations.

A bike is a bike. If e-bikes get classed as motor vehicles, then EMTBs become motorbikes. Goodbye to that forestry track!

 

[GrahamPaul]

hmm we do have a very comprehensive cycle route in the uk, some on road some on dedicated paths both in towns and in the countryside. in the small town where i live they have just extended the cyclepaths by 6-7 miles

No, the UK does NOT have a comprehensive cycle network. It is dreadful, inconsistent, uncoordinated and badly maintained. Despite all the efforts of SUSTRANS.

You urban cycle networks are not separated from road traffic and, often, lead cyclist straight back into the traffic at the most dangerous places. An abysmal system. So much so that, during my recent 14 month stay in Britain, I put my bike away after I was purposefully "nudged" by cars 3 times in one outing.

 

[ccrdave]

ok so that takes me back to my original point shouldn't they just put speed limits on cycle paths and cycleways that would be far more reaching than electronically restricting a bike that can be ridden faster mechanically, wouldn't it?

 

[ccrdave]

No, the UK does NOT have a comprehensive cycle network. It is dreadful, inconsistent, uncoordinated and badly maintained. Despite all the efforts of SUSTRANS.

You urban cycle networks are not separated from road traffic and, often, lead cyclist straight back into the traffic at the most dangerous places. An abysmal system. So much so that, during my recent 14 month stay in Britain, I put my bike away after I was purposefully "nudged" by cars 3 times in one outing.

Oh well I guess you know better than me on that one I dont ride on the road

 

[stiv674]

I agree with what @GrahamPaul is trying to say, currently most cyclists won't be going over 15mph, due to fitness maybe and also probably have no need to but if the assistant level was put up to 25mph then more cyclists would ride at that speed, creating more possible problems...

Then we could have the possibility of having to have insurance etc.

 

[ccrdave]

I agree with what @GrahamPaul is trying to say, currently most cyclists won't be going over 15mph, due to fitness maybe and also probably have no need to but if the assistant level was put up to 25mph then more cyclists would ride at that speed, creating more possible problems...

Then we could have the possibility of having to have insurance etc.

well I dont think there is anything wrong in having insurance, we all should anyway. anybody who rides in mixed areas on road or offroad should have public liability insurance. all road users have to have insurance why are cyclists exempt?

 

[GrahamPaul]

ok so that takes me back to my original point shouldn't they just put speed limits on cycle paths and cycleways that would be far more reaching than electronically restricting a bike that can be ridden faster mechanically, wouldn't it?

Many countries do have a speed restriction for bikes. But the thing is, how are you going to enforce it? Traffic cameras on the cycle paths? It will be a bad law because it's unenforceable (except on the Bodensee, I do admit).

Think about it: there are speed limits in place for cars. How effective have they been? So effective in fact, that very soon all new cars in Europe will have gps tracked speed limiters in place by 2022. Guess what: e-bikes are already in that situation!

 

[ccrdave]

yes but thats my point speed limiters on cars will be very effective (apart from when somebody finds a work around,)
because once the car hits its limit there is absolutely nothing you can do to make it go faster, once an ebike hits its limit there is......pedal

 

[GrahamPaul]

yes but thats my point speed limiters on cars will be very effective (apart from when somebody finds a work around,)
because once the car hits its limit there is absolutely nothing you can do to make it go faster, once an ebike hits its limit there is......pedal

<sigh> I guess are you trying to troll. But just in case you are not understanding the reasoning behind speed restrictions on e-bikes, let's recap because it is possible that you are basing your reasoning for motor support restrictions on e-bikes on your experiences of one shared forest path and 7 miles of cycle path.

• Most e-bikes are commuter bikes.
• Most cycle use in the rest of Europe is commuting.
• Western Europe (but specifically the huge cycle markets of Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark) have cities with exceptional cycle networks and well as excellent rural connections.
• Successful urban cycle networks separate motor traffic from cycles, often combining cycles with pedestrians.
• Cycle speed during commuting is limited by the need to arrive without being sweaty.
• Damage to pedestrians increases with increased bike speed.
• There are always idiots that can and do ride too fast and damage pedestrians and other cyclists. However, the need to use muscle power limits this.
• Allowing higher support speeds for e-bike motors will damage more pedestrians as more people are able to reach higher speeds without breaking a sweat.
• Speed limits for bicycles are impossible to police and implement.
• EMTBs are a fringe cycling activity. There is nothing to stop you removing your speed limiter and riding on private land perfectly legally.
• You can build and ride your own EMTB without a speed limiter perfectly legally. You cannot ride this on the road unless it complies with your local laws.

The speed limits on motor support are in place in Europe because the cities are full. This makes for compromises as people (cyclists + pedestrians) need to get along safely and without confrontation or danger.

If you don't like it, either stay off the roads on private land or campaign for new legislation for your bikes. There are differences in national laws across Europe, for example. General traffic speed limits apply to bicycles in many countries, but in others there is a global limit of 30km/hr (Switzerland) or 40km/hr (Spain), for example. Just as there is no European wide car speed limit in towns or on motorways, campaign for what you want for your bikes.

(Just be aware that in the UK nanny is watching and she has the Daily Mail on her side )

 

[ccrdave]

Ok im not trolling i have no intention of campaigning i spent most of my life working with the hse so i am well aware of the nanny state so i think we should accept we dissgree and move on im going out on my bike!

 

[Slowroller]

If I had a band hammer, I’d band you all!

 

[MitchF]

Charlie Alliston was allegedly riding at 18mph on a fixed-gear bike with no front brakes before he collided with Kim Briggs, a mother of two, as she crossed a busy road in central London in February 2016.

I'll leave you to argue about that one when it comes to discussing the merits, or otherwise, of restricting motor support speeds. Arseholes will always be arseholes, but having had a mate whose shoulder was broken by a speeding cyclist as he got off a tram outside the office, I can fully understand the restrictions.

Was the speeding cyclist on a derestricted e-bike ?

 

[Rusty]

Was the speeding cyclist on a derestricted e-bike ?

No, he was on a hipster fixie with no brakes. Damn things should be banned anyways as every country I have been in requires brakes on a bicycle.
As far as de-restricting goes - to each his/her own. Me, if I lived in UK I would as there is no way I could ride a bike limited to 25kph. Our limit is 32kph and that is too damned low IMHO. When I had my singlespeed I would do a 40-50k loop out on the road and would average 30kph with about 32kph on the flat - on my road bike I would be 35-38kph on the flat when riding alone and I get passed every time I go out.
There is a push in America to raise the limit for class 1 (pedal assist - no throttle) to 25mph (around 40kph) which in my mind makes commuting to trail-heads on the road a whole lot safer.
The reality is that the extra speed would not be used on the trails so much as many don't ride close to the limit anyways, but dumbing down the rules to suit senile old farts or newbies is pretty stupid IMHO.

 

[Christy]

Can we go for a ride sometime you seam like loads of fun.

??

 

[Steve38]

BANDAMODA

 

[Ripping g]

You’re spoiling language every time you type.

Could say same about you pal dont read if you dont like ?

 

[The Hodge]

Aww..C'mon lads..
I probably write better than I ride ( ?)..that doesn't mean I shouldn't ride ..
just saying ?

 

[>moto<]

Spelling and punctuation shouldn't be slept on, its the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.