Delete this lol...back to the drawing board!
Doug Stampfer
Well-known member
I respect what you're doing & was considering a similar thing to ride when my wife rides my bike but prepare for incoming when you show it with the motor hanging down ready to be busted off.
- Thread starter
- #3
Yes
I definitely considered it so if anything, I'll probably need to weld up a custom guard of some sort.
The operator was a nice enough DH bike of the time but as with most WC DH bikes an absolute pig to ride on the flat or uphill.
the slack seattube angle is designed to place the saddle out the way of the rear wheel under full compression and to give crotch clearance with the saddle positioned to allow the rider to control the bike with their inner thigh when ridden standing up.. Because of this the saddle will be placed in a ridiculous position at full pedalling extension height. Being a DH bike from 8 years back it's also incredibly short in reach compared to any modern trail bike. It also wasn't designed to run an air shock so may well be far too progressive with the X2
fitting a motor won't change any of this.
also...
don't waste your money on converting it. Buy a season lift pass for your nearest DH track/Bike park and spend the money on fuel to get there.
the slack seattube angle is designed to place the saddle out the way of the rear wheel under full compression and to give crotch clearance with the saddle positioned to allow the rider to control the bike with their inner thigh when ridden standing up.. Because of this the saddle will be placed in a ridiculous position at full pedalling extension height. Being a DH bike from 8 years back it's also incredibly short in reach compared to any modern trail bike. It also wasn't designed to run an air shock so may well be far too progressive with the X2
fitting a motor won't change any of this.
also...
So clearly not the original owner then?
don't waste your money on converting it. Buy a season lift pass for your nearest DH track/Bike park and spend the money on fuel to get there.
Doug Stampfer
Well-known member
Maybe look at something along the lines of a polygon siskiu type frame where a motor could be fitted so it sits more horizontal.
I was hoping to convert my old bike but would run into the same kind of scenario. I then worked out buying a more appropriate 2nd hand bike with its' potential faults coupled with the cost of the conversion kit would began to run into big numbers that could be better invested into a proper emtb. Bit of a bugger when you may only use it every few weeks or months... still that's what buying toys is all about
I was hoping to convert my old bike but would run into the same kind of scenario. I then worked out buying a more appropriate 2nd hand bike with its' potential faults coupled with the cost of the conversion kit would began to run into big numbers that could be better invested into a proper emtb. Bit of a bugger when you may only use it every few weeks or months... still that's what buying toys is all about
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Whoa up, just because a few think low hanging/ forward of the BB motors and old DH bikes are not suitable, let’s think this through this a bit.
Old DH bikes geometries are today not unsimilar to that of modern day Emtb Trail bike, slack head angles, long wheelbase, some with a relatively long reach. Who really cares if they don’t peddle up hill because of the seat position, neither do the early generation EBikes where without an active motor on board they are just like cycling in mud, after all that’s why you have a motor.
The old nugget of the motor below the BB or in front is to be fair not much worse than say the latest Yamaha motor or the early gen Shimano and Brose configurations, it’s just you now have a huge down tube which fairs in that lump protruding forward and down. Visually you just no longer see the engine, it’s only from about 2020 onwards the new motors have been canted upwards like the Whytes.
The other issue is most motors today have a 36 tooth ring which is just about same size / diameter as any below the BB motor such as TSDZ2, which no one seems to complain about hitting the chain ring. From experience you get peddle strikes long before clouting the motor. We’ve done probably in excess of 10K of rough knarly cross country on the 6 bikes we have converted, no motor had been wiped off, almost all have little or no damage marks on the front and bottom where we expected to see damage and from true life rather than internet hypothesis, the motors position doesn’t seem a problem. Sure we do XCountry and not big jumps on Downhills.
So why consider fitting a low hanging forward facing motor, well for about £ 500.00 notes you can have a 500W torque sensing motor with a 360Wh battery on your retired old faithful bike that’s sitting in the back of the shed that will make you weep with joy when you weigh it ( most conversions of any reasonable old faithful will be around 16 - 17 kilos ) and will be a great entry level EBike. Sure it won’t do what the latest gen bikes will do, but.
Old DH bikes geometries are today not unsimilar to that of modern day Emtb Trail bike, slack head angles, long wheelbase, some with a relatively long reach. Who really cares if they don’t peddle up hill because of the seat position, neither do the early generation EBikes where without an active motor on board they are just like cycling in mud, after all that’s why you have a motor.
The old nugget of the motor below the BB or in front is to be fair not much worse than say the latest Yamaha motor or the early gen Shimano and Brose configurations, it’s just you now have a huge down tube which fairs in that lump protruding forward and down. Visually you just no longer see the engine, it’s only from about 2020 onwards the new motors have been canted upwards like the Whytes.
The other issue is most motors today have a 36 tooth ring which is just about same size / diameter as any below the BB motor such as TSDZ2, which no one seems to complain about hitting the chain ring. From experience you get peddle strikes long before clouting the motor. We’ve done probably in excess of 10K of rough knarly cross country on the 6 bikes we have converted, no motor had been wiped off, almost all have little or no damage marks on the front and bottom where we expected to see damage and from true life rather than internet hypothesis, the motors position doesn’t seem a problem. Sure we do XCountry and not big jumps on Downhills.
So why consider fitting a low hanging forward facing motor, well for about £ 500.00 notes you can have a 500W torque sensing motor with a 360Wh battery on your retired old faithful bike that’s sitting in the back of the shed that will make you weep with joy when you weigh it ( most conversions of any reasonable old faithful will be around 16 - 17 kilos ) and will be a great entry level EBike. Sure it won’t do what the latest gen bikes will do, but.
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The only similarity in geometry between the old Kona being discussed and a modern trail bike is head angle
The rest of your speculation is nonsense. Especially your thoughts regarding pedalling uphill with a 50deg seat post angle extended to give anywhere even close to appropriate leg extension.
Show me an early Emtb with an actual seat angle this slack?
That's pretty amazing!
Considering those old Kona Operators weighed 18.5kg when new.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Now Gary we know you hate anything that doesn’t conform to your way of thinking, you certainly are one of the more opinionated posters on this forum. Sure the old Kona’s were barges and weighed a ton, but there were other bikes that could just be lighter and with less acute seat angles that could just be what the poster is looking for.
Forget leg extensions and the optimum excellence of the Gary’s world, ( by the way I want to see a vid of you pulling a cadence of over 200 for more than 5 minutes up an 15% incline as you claim or it doesn’t happen ), we are talking rehashing and recycling old retirees that are sitting in the back of the shed, you know the old favourites that everybody has but won’t ever get rid of.
Both the Elmsworths we have converted came in nicely at just under 17 Kgs, the later more trail orientated Whyte T129’s which I highly recommend are sub 18kgs with batteries on board, the late 26” wheel Treks that can take a 2.4 tyre on the back with a 27.5 front suspension on ( yes the early 27.5 forks were 1 1/8 ) going mullet style, all are candidates.
Now have I got time to make some popcorn before the “ Gary knows it all “ reply appears ?
Forget leg extensions and the optimum excellence of the Gary’s world, ( by the way I want to see a vid of you pulling a cadence of over 200 for more than 5 minutes up an 15% incline as you claim or it doesn’t happen ), we are talking rehashing and recycling old retirees that are sitting in the back of the shed, you know the old favourites that everybody has but won’t ever get rid of.
Both the Elmsworths we have converted came in nicely at just under 17 Kgs, the later more trail orientated Whyte T129’s which I highly recommend are sub 18kgs with batteries on board, the late 26” wheel Treks that can take a 2.4 tyre on the back with a 27.5 front suspension on ( yes the early 27.5 forks were 1 1/8 ) going mullet style, all are candidates.
Now have I got time to make some popcorn before the “ Gary knows it all “ reply appears ?
No worries.
Just to put the record straight
I don't actually "hate" any "way of thinking". Quite the oposite infact. Human personality type and cognition are extremely diverse and in my ideal world neurotypical and neurodivergent minds would all live in peace and harmony without goading or ridicule and people would spend time to educate themselves before blindly flying into arguments their knowledge base simply can't cash. But I'm not naive enough to expect everyone to understand that. I simply have no interest in typing (or reading) incorrect information.
I'm also humble enough to apologise if I've been wrong and thank others when I have been given helpful or new information.
No. We actually weren't. The thread was about a 2012 Kona operator the OP had bought cheaply with the idea of converting with a motor kit. And I think you will find all information I have given is relevant to that bike alone. (just incase you missed it my 50deg seattube angle comment was a v.slight exageration, but all I said about it stands true regardless).
Again just to put the record straight. *sigh*
I haven't ever claimed to be able to hold a cadence of 200rpm for 5 minutes. or even mentioned holding a high cadence up any sort of incline.
P = F x V
clue: it's a lot harder to hold a high cadence when load is increased.
I have mentioned quite some time back in another thread that I can max out at a PEAK cadence of 240rpm. for some reason you seem to have a problem with this and seem to still be holding onto some sort of grudge. That is entirely your own issue and doesn't affect me in the slightest.
Have a nice evening.
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Rocking it !
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Umm it would seem my use of the words
Would indicate I was referencing a generalisation and not exclusively the Kona DH’s.
Ah well I‘m done on this subject, the forum readers here seem to be more interested in the latest and greatest rather than recycling what were very good bikes just a few years ago. There are other forums where conversions are talked about with more shall we say open minds.
Doug Stampfer
Well-known member
Maybe there aren't many that can be bothered with powering up a 'still good after all these years' recycled bike but you can't blame them if they have the money to buy a new purpose built shiny one. I, on the other hand really enjoy seeing something redesigned, rebuilt or repurposed.
With regards to the OP I am not sure if I'm sorry that he hasn't decided to carry on as I put myself in his place & would rather start on something else that may be a better candidate than to carry on, spend a lot of money & end up with something that doesn't work that well. I have no experience repowering a bike but have researched for my own interest & have come back to the opinion that I don't think it is economically viable.
I respect your input re if the motors get banged up or damaged. I think what is lacking in this DIY forum are examples of repowered bikes (rather than the Dengfu) & their successes or failures. If you do really care then post some pics of your creations - I'd be interested in seeing them, as most of the ones I google are either hideous things built with cordless drill chargers attached or rather pedestrian commuters.
I personally find the rebooted Intense the most interesting & hottest looking bike on this forum (no disrespect to other builders).
Finally regarding members that wind you up - They're out there & they won't go away . There is an ignore function you can use to block them. You can't changer the wind but you can change the direction of your sail.
Keep on posting
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
A good example that has now done a lot of km's of hard XCountry. We have found a better battery bag since this photo and the battery is now down in the lower part of the front triangle.
Sadly not everyone has the gold plated credit cards to afford the latest and greatest. Now if I had the opportunity to afford the latest Whyte 150RS then it would be a no brainer, but for about £ 500 notes I could afford converting my existing Whyte M109 which has done for the last 3 years, kept up with the Levo's and Haibikes I ride with and been a fun bike. The best thing is the running costs of the build has been less than the 12 Speed cassette of most of the bikes I'm running with.
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Genuine question with no piss taking at all.
Why have you fitted the heavy battery in a bag hanging from the highest possible position when there looks to be ample room in the front frame triangle closer to the BB (and motor) ?
moving it there would undoubtably improve the bikes handling and reduce the spiders web of cabling.
it's almost as if you've gone out of your way to route the cables as badly as possible to troll the internet
Ok. with that last bit I am taking the piss a little.
And talking of re-purposing old bikes, the one upgrade that properly changes any old mountain bike bike for the better is a dropper post.
You should start a thread about your experience converting bikes cheaply... it'd be interesting.
also, are any of the £500 kits torque sensing with the option to alter assistance limit (to say 28-32mph) and a decent sized battery (500wh ish)?
Why have you fitted the heavy battery in a bag hanging from the highest possible position when there looks to be ample room in the front frame triangle closer to the BB (and motor) ?
moving it there would undoubtably improve the bikes handling and reduce the spiders web of cabling.
it's almost as if you've gone out of your way to route the cables as badly as possible to troll the internet
Ok. with that last bit I am taking the piss a little.
And talking of re-purposing old bikes, the one upgrade that properly changes any old mountain bike bike for the better is a dropper post.
You should start a thread about your experience converting bikes cheaply... it'd be interesting.
also, are any of the £500 kits torque sensing with the option to alter assistance limit (to say 28-32mph) and a decent sized battery (500wh ish)?
What battery and bag did you go with? I may do a conversion on my wife's bike at some point and as an extra small, its triangle is too small for most full sized batteries on the market.
Yes. One of the motors I would consider for the above is the Tongsheng TSDZ2: TONGSHENG TSDZ2
It has torque sensing assist up to 20 or 28MPH depending upon how you set it. You may be able to increase that with programming but I haven't looked into it (my wife would never ride that fast anyway!).
You can use as large a battery as you can fit on the bike. The site above carries a 775 WH 52V which is likely a popular choice for full sized bikes. For bikes with less room and/or keeping weight minimal, smaller batteries can be used.
Looks to be around $500 for the motor and components and then up to $700 for the battery.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Gary you need to go back to school and learn to read posts before rushing in and complaining of battery bags being up high, I seem to recall writing something about the battery bag being now in the triangle. Considering the weight of a dropper seat post which you complain of me not having ( how many riders really use a seat post all of the time or even some of the time ? ) v a carbon seat post and a 260Wh battery there’s only 1 pint in it + my fat lardy arse and I guess in the riding I do, it’s not going to matter 1 jot where the perfect location is.Genuine question with no piss taking at all.
Why have you fitted the heavy battery in a bag hanging from the highest possible position when there looks to be ample room in the front frame triangle closer to the BB (and motor) ?
moving it there would undoubtably improve the bikes handling and reduce the spiders web of cabling.
it's almost as if you've gone out of your way to route the cables as badly as possible to troll the internet
Ok. with that last bit I am taking the piss a little.
And talking of re-purposing old bikes, the one upgrade that properly changes any old mountain bike bike for the better is a dropper post.
You should start a thread about your experience converting bikes cheaply... it'd be interesting.
also, are any of the £500 kits torque sensing with the option to alter assistance limit (to say 28-32mph) and a decent sized battery (500wh ish)?
Equally complaining of a cable routing as bad as possible, I think you need a visit to Spec Savers, cables have to be external on a conversion for obvious reasons, 3 cables, display, speed sensor and LCD have to go somewhere. Or perhaps you are doing your ” I can do everything better “ routine once again.
You seem to know very little about the TSDZ2 engine, it’s now getting to the stage where it’s quite a mature product, with the availability of Firmware you have now quite a sophisticated engine, 5 different modes including EMtb with anything and everything user configurable, colour LCD, no LCD, wireless to your phone or Garmin, Field Weakening for you to get up to your favourite unbelievable 250 cadence, unrestricted speed limits, good for about 500W’s continuous but with mods can run 600. - 700 pretty comfortably for shorter periods, that engine has a lot that very very expensive engines have for not a lot of money ( pre the recent shortages we were paying less than 300 notes but just looking now, around the £ 350 bracket ). No it’s never going to be a Brose or a Mahle in build quality but every part is available at very reasonable costs.
500Wh batteries are now a few years out of date in the world outside of brand names when you can build an 800Wh for 1/3 of the price and about the same weight.
Can you build your own battery for the E10 ?
Yes is the answer, but with caveats here. The manufacturers use proprietory Can Bus signals and the likes to manage and interpret the battery to protect it from too much load and the total number of charges etc. But if you research and look around the internet its surprising how much info you...
www.emtbforums.com
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Doug Stampfer
Well-known member
When standing next to the other manufactured emtbs you ride with is your motor noticeably lower than theirs? Have you had any hits to the motor & if it did hit are they pretty robust? I'm hearing what you say about the visual look of the new bikes hiding the motor but Jeez they do stick out like the proverbial?
I'd love to power up my trance since I put a lot of love into it before getting the Rail but as you explained in another post the BB isn't right
I'd love to power up my trance since I put a lot of love into it before getting the Rail but as you explained in another post the BB isn't right
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Yup the TSDZ2 seems to hang low and look like it’s going to be wiped out on the first twig. In practice out in the real world you seem to strike the pedals long before the motor and we seem to be having no issue with motor damage from impact. Bare in mind all our riding is XCountry riding but it’s pretty knarly around here and plenty of branches down on the trails.
It’s one of my pet peeves that everyone measures to the centre line of the pedals and not actual ground clearance. One only has to look at the latest Yamaha and the Flyon engines to see that the actual ground clearance is a lot less than BB height.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Everything is a compromise, sure you may have a lower under carriage than you had previously but in reality in your riding style how often did you hit your 36T crank ring ?
Don’t get me wrong by my advocation that some conversions are worthwhile, most are not, some however are.
GrandPaBrogan
⚡ eGeezer ⚡
Don’t be peeved. BB height and ground clearance have never been the same thing even with non-ebikes. Ground clearance in those bikes depends on the size (diameter) of the chainring.
Regarding the Giant/Yamaha combo, the motor is positioned to allow the Maestro linkages to be where they should be. It’s an engineering decision to avail of the advantages of what the proprietary rear suspension has to offer. I’ve heard of users sometimes hitting the plastic bash guard underneath but I’ve yet to hear of anyone crack/splitting the motor crankcase from a hit. A well considered and reasonable compromise the company engineers were willing to take.
Jay31
New Member
I'm going through old post for my first conversion and posts like yours and others are providing a wealth of information.
In fact I have a newer bike which began to peak my interest in to roll out the old bike. The tinkerer in me couldn't resist.
Ive been posting on Facebook groups to find info, unfortunately there not much to be gathered there. So thanks and keep posting.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
Have a look at EBike Non-hub Motor Drives - Endless Sphere where you will find info on virtually every conversion kit out there.
From far too much time playing with conversions, at the moment the TSDZ2 kit is way ahead of the pack if you want similar to the Brose, Bosch that we know here. More power and you really are looking at a complete frame and motor kit.
From far too much time playing with conversions, at the moment the TSDZ2 kit is way ahead of the pack if you want similar to the Brose, Bosch that we know here. More power and you really are looking at a complete frame and motor kit.
Jay31
New Member
From what I gathered, the tongsheng is the route I'm going with. Some slight modifications, heat sink, upgraded gear, and OSF will put me where I would need.
The challenge is to mount this on my old "back shed" bike. It's a 2008 GT full suspension. The challenge is going to be the Idrive 5 rear linkage. It's an odd one, but talked to several people who have made it work.
The challenge is to mount this on my old "back shed" bike. It's a 2008 GT full suspension. The challenge is going to be the Idrive 5 rear linkage. It's an odd one, but talked to several people who have made it work.
Waynemarlow
E*POWAH Master
With the OSF you won’t need the upgraded brass gear. In saying that I did a couple of the plastic gears with trials type riding getting the front wheel wedged and trying to force the wheel out using more power than should have been reasonable to not expect damage of some kind. But at £20.00 and probably only 15 minutes to fit I reasoned that to have quiet running over the more noisy brass gear, plastic was just an expendable fuse.
Mixed views on bothering to upgrade the motor with heat mods, I always did mine but the rest of the group didn’t without any problems considering how much single track climbing we do. Those who do seem to have problems were the ones on road based climbs where the power is needed constantly over longer periods than single track.
Somewhere here on this forum is a thread on the TSDZ2, might be worth a search
I looked at the Giant and felt it wasn’t a good conversion for some reason, I can’t remember why.
Mixed views on bothering to upgrade the motor with heat mods, I always did mine but the rest of the group didn’t without any problems considering how much single track climbing we do. Those who do seem to have problems were the ones on road based climbs where the power is needed constantly over longer periods than single track.
Somewhere here on this forum is a thread on the TSDZ2, might be worth a search
I looked at the Giant and felt it wasn’t a good conversion for some reason, I can’t remember why.
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