Decoy pro Race 2019 Öhlins shock, Fox 36 E-fork

[YT_DAVE88]

After weeks of struggling with suspension tunes I decided to go with a coil shock as some of you already know. I have been meaning to post this for weeks, sorry its only now I have had the time. The fork on the other hand is still not correct for me so im considering changing them to a ultimate lyric or the new M.2 Öhlins RXF 36 or possibly a coil setup. Some people may have known that the E-bike 36 factory fork by fox has 36mm stanchions and lower legs but 34 internals, damper etc with 3 volume tokens as standard from YT on this particular model year. After adding a token to the already ridiculous harsh ride it did seem to help, but after all day riding they begin to feel very fatigued and slow. I have now removed the token I added, plus one more to try and regain comfort, this seems to work better but I am blowing through the travel a lot easier. Overall the ride is better and I have a lot more grip but there's not enough support in the top stroke witch is a obvious result from removing tokens. Has anyone change the fork for a coil fork? has anyone tried the ultimate lyric or the Öhlins air fork? There just doesn't seem to be a nice middle ground with this fork. The bike is now on Michelin E-wild rear and AM wild front with Cush core installed, 15psi front 18psi rear. I will more than likely drop to 12psi all round as there is more grip to find, and why not having the added bonus of the the Cush core. please let me know your opinions on the fork setup. cheers

 

[Fx1]

Have you checked this thing isnt faulty?

What is it exactly you are trying to solve?

 

[Mauko]

How do you find the Öhlins? Been thinking of getting a coil as well.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

Have you checked this thing isnt faulty?

What is it exactly you are trying to solve?

Harsh stiff ride while riding rocks, roots etc. Even riding on fire roads is harsh on the hands and No grip. I have solved 80% of these issues with the wheel set up but fork is still very vague and I feel it’s under performing.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

How do you find the Öhlins? Been thinking of getting a coil as well.

Best upgrade I have ever bought for a bike. It can be tricky picking the right weight coil but once it’s correct you never have to worry about it which is another reason why I like it. I don’t wanna be messing about, I just want to ride and with the coil it’s consistent. The öhlins is plush and has a great balance of grip and support. The grip and feel between the öhlins and the x2 air shock is impressive. The x2 is plush but can be too progressive at times and can feel harsh and stiff. The öhlins doesn’t feel harsh at all it’s just plush constantly and it gives more confidence to smash through anything. The down side is if your bottoming out the shock by changing your riding style or trying bigger features the spring will need to be changed, they are not cheap at £95 a spring, there are cheaper alternatives but it can be hassle. The other down side is the weight. It’s very noticeable but by having the motor it gets cancelled out in a way but it will drain the battery quicker. It’s not a huge amount but it did have a slight effect on the range. The balance of the bike in the air has shifted slightly to the rear but again it’s not as bad as I was expecting. I think a coil shock on a E-bike is the way to go in my opinion

 

[MTB_MIKE]

What is your weight and what spring rate did you end up with?

My weight is 160lbs geared up and was originally on a 400lb spring (31% sag). The bike felt good but drops and jumps felt harsh as it blew through the travel and bottomed out pretty easily. I am now on a 450lb spring (27% sag) and the drops and jumps are a bit better.

My conclusion is the leverage curve on this bike is Not very progressive and if you go coil, it’s a good idea to add a decent amount of HSC or go with a stiffer spring, or get a Progressive coil.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

What is your weight and what spring rate did you end up with?

My weight is 160lbs geared up and was originally on a 400lb spring (31% sag). The bike felt good but drops and jumps felt harsh as it blew through the travel and bottomed out pretty easily. I am now on a 450lb spring (27% sag) and the drops and jumps are a bit better.

My conclusion is the leverage curve on this bike is Not very progressive and if you go coil, it’s a good idea to add a decent amount of HSC or go with a stiffer spring, or get a Progressive coil.

My riding weight is 230lb and I went with 548lb spring, i personally think the bike is on the progressive side. The rear coil shock seems to work great for me. The fork on the other hand is was to harsh and I’m just not getting on with it. I have had 36’s on all of my bikes over the last 5 years and they have been great but I’m thinking the 34 internals on these particular forks are having an effect on ride comfort.

 

[Fx1]

What is your weight and what spring rate did you end up with?

My weight is 160lbs geared up and was originally on a 400lb spring (31% sag). The bike felt good but drops and jumps felt harsh as it blew through the travel and bottomed out pretty easily. I am now on a 450lb spring (27% sag) and the drops and jumps are a bit better.

My conclusion is the leverage curve on this bike is Not very progressive and if you go coil, it’s a good idea to add a decent amount of HSC or go with a stiffer spring, or get a Progressive coil.

My riding weight is 230lb and I went with 548lb spring, i personally think the bike is on the progressive side. The rear coil shock seems to work great for me. The fork on the other hand is was to harsh and I’m just not getting on with it. I have had 36’s on all of my bikes over the last 5 years and they have been great but I’m thinking the 34 internals on these particular forks are having an effect on ride comfort.

Sounds like your tyres are rock hard to me.

What casing are you running and at what psi?

 

[Borist]

Some people may have known that the E-bike 36 factory fork by fox has 36mm stanchions and lower legs but 34 internals, damper etc with 3 volume tokens as standard from YT on this particular model year. After adding a token to the already ridiculous harsh ride it did seem to help, but after all day riding they begin to feel very fatigued and slow.

Just out of curiosity, have you serviced lowers on Fox 36 and check if there is not exesive amount of grease in the negative air chamber as often mentioned on web?

 

[brash]

Service the forks first, likely the air spring has a huge glob of grease in it creating harshness.

The best mod for these 36 E forks is a Vorsprung Lufftkappe, despite the documentation saying it is not compatible, I can assure you it fits and works perfectly. Buy the Fox34 version.

It increases the negative air volume considerably and improves mid stroke performance. Well worth the cost.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

Just out of curiosity, have you serviced lowers on Fox 36 and check if there is not exesive amount of grease in the negative air chamber as often mentioned on web?

No I haven’t serviced them, I bought the bike brand new January this year and it’s only had about 5 hours of riding since then.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

Service the forks first, likely the air spring has a huge glob of grease in it creating harshness.

The best mod for these 36 E forks is a Vorsprung Lufftkappe, despite the documentation saying it is not compatible, I can assure you it fits and works perfectly. Buy the Fox34 version.

It increases the negative air volume considerably and improves mid stroke performance. Well worth the cost.

I will certainly bare this in mind, I don’t want the cost of changing the forks if this problem can be solved.

 

[YT_DAVE88]

Sounds like your tyres are rock hard to me.

What casing are you running and at what psi?

I’m not sure of the casings but I’m running 18psi in the rear and 15psi in the front with Cush core installed.

 

[TransAmMan]

Just out of curiosity, have you serviced lowers on Fox 36 and check if there is not exesive amount of grease in the negative air chamber as often mentioned on web?

I would agree with this as Fox is notorious for assembly issues (I doubt the workers on the assembly lines in Taiwan are factory trained technicians). Almost every Fox fork I have owned comes back a completely different fork after servicing by a suspension expert.

I also did a Push Coil conversion on a Transition Sentinel, and ironically experienced the same issue you are. The rear coil worked so well it outperformed the fork by a significant margin (which was a Lyrik). Prior to the coil conversion, I had no issues with the fork … as the performance between front and back (air suspension . lyric and DPX2) was relatively equal.

The installation of a coil out back brought the limitations of the air suspension to the forefront.

In the end I ended up doing a PUSH ACS3 coil conversion to the fork in order to "balance" out my sentinel. In essence … have equal performance both front and back.

Since 2005, people have been raving how air suspension "feels like a coil". Here we are 15 years later and people are STILL saying it "feels like a coil". … air is good, but its NOT coil (and vice versa) Some people actually prefer air over coil .. some prefer coil over air ….

If you like the performance of coil suspension AND it suits your riding style (check for both on my end), then you should consider a coil conversion out front as well. .

Sure its pricey .. but everything to do with bike parts is an "investment" in fun ... so every dollar spent is worth it

FWIW .. my suspension tuner revalved the High Speed circuit in my fork (2019 Fox 36 factory like yours) over the winter. Claimed it was common that it created ride harshness.

Since there is SNOW where I ride, I have not had a chance to test it since the fork was rebuilt and HSC revalved .. so cannot provide any feedback. I can verify riding it down my street, pumping it up and down (making motorcycle noises too) it does feel more lively tho. True test will be the first ride in a few weeks (when this darn snow leaves)

** Maybe worth calling a suspension tuner and asking these questions. They may be able to provide some valuable insight

 

[YT_DAVE88]

I would agree with this as Fox is notorious for assembly issues (I doubt the workers on the assembly lines in Taiwan are factory trained technicians). Almost every Fox fork I have owned comes back a completely different fork after servicing by a suspension expert.

I also did a Push Coil conversion on a Transition Sentinel, and ironically experienced the same issue you are. The rear coil worked so well it outperformed the fork by a significant margin (which was a Lyrik). Prior to the coil conversion, I had no issues with the fork … as the performance between front and back (air suspension . lyric and DPX2) was relatively equal.

The installation of a coil out back brought the limitations of the air suspension to the forefront.

In the end I ended up doing a PUSH ACS3 coil conversion to the fork in order to "balance" out my sentinel. In essence … have equal performance both front and back.

Since 2005, people have been raving how air suspension "feels like a coil". Here we are 15 years later and people are STILL saying it "feels like a coil". … air is good, but its NOT coil (and vice versa) Some people actually prefer air over coil .. some prefer coil over air ….

If you like the performance of coil suspension AND it suits your riding style (check for both on my end), then you should consider a coil conversion out front as well. .

Sure its pricey .. but everything to do with bike parts is an "investment" in fun ... so every dollar spent is worth it

A coil fork is definitely on the cards for me, I had a giant AC2 back in the day with a coil set up and it was amazing, switching to air a few years later I didn’t like it at first but I think over the years air suspension was pushed onto the market and it just landed up being the norm and I forgot what coil felt like.

 

[MTB_MIKE]

Are the 2020 Decoys running the 170mm Fox 36’s on 36 internals or 34?

 

[YT_DAVE88]

Are the 2020 Decoys running the 170mm Fox 36’s on 36 internals or 34?

I’m not sure, but if I was going to guess it will be the 34 internals as the volume tokens still suggest the green ones

 

[Fx1]

Are the 2020 Decoys running the 170mm Fox 36’s on 36 internals or 34?

I’m not sure, but if I was going to guess it will be the 34 internals as the volume tokens still suggest the green ones

Is this confirmed? I cannot find any facts online about this 34 internal.

A 34 internal shouldn't make it harsh anyway.

 

[MTB_MIKE]

Is this confirmed? I cannot find any facts online about this 34 internal.

A 34 internal shouldn't make it harsh anyway.

Fox 36 has larger neg and pos air chambers. More volume is generally a plusher ride although not as progressive. If you think a fox 34 doesn't affect harshness, why not use Fox 32 air shafts and make the fork with even thicker side walls?

Also with more volume and more travel, generally your able to run lower pressures too

 

[Fx1]

Is this confirmed? I cannot find any facts online about this 34 internal.

A 34 internal shouldn't make it harsh anyway.

Fox 36 has larger neg and pos air chambers. More volume is generally a plusher ride although not as progressive. If you think a fox 34 doesn't affect harshness, why not use Fox 32 air shafts and make the fork with even thicker side walls?

Also with more volume and more travel, generally your able to run lower pressures too

I'm sure there is a difference but I highly doubt its harsh.

I went from grid butchers 2.3 to rocket Ron's 2.6 tubeless and turned a horrible harsh ride to riding on clouds without even touching the suspension on my enduro.

If the 34 was harsh then the 34 fox would also be harsh on a stumpy.

Nobody had said the forks are harsh on any 2019 36 fox factory bike ever. Until now.

If it was my shock I'd be watching the lost co YouTube video on how to service it. Or send it to be serviced under warranty

I'm hoping to get a good ride on mine this weekend so I'll report back.

 

[MTB_MIKE]

I'm sure there is a difference but I highly doubt its harsh.

I went from grid butchers 2.3 to rocket Ron's 2.6 tubeless and turned a horrible harsh ride to riding on clouds without even touching the suspension on my enduro.

If the 34 was harsh then the 34 fox would also be harsh on a stumpy.

Nobody had said the forks are harsh on any 2019 36 fox factory bike ever. Until now.

If it was my shock I'd be watching the lost co YouTube video on how to service it. Or send it to be serviced under warranty

I'm hoping to get a good ride on mine this weekend so I'll report back.

You’re right. Nobody really has complained too much about the fork. I agree Dave88 should take the fork apart and reassemble. Cushcore and 15psi on the front should make it even more supple!!

 

[YT_DAVE88]

You’re right. Nobody really has complained too much about the fork. I agree Dave88 should take the fork apart and reassemble. Cushcore and 15psi on the front should make it even more supple!!

The wheel and tyre set up I have has definitely helped, the grip and stability is there now. I have removed a token from the fork so I’m now only running 2 tokens instead of the factory 3 tokens. That has sorted the harsh first stroke out but it’s still not great as obviously now I have lost a lot of support in the mid stroke. It runs plush enough for now but I need to investigate this further. I’ll do a lower leg service and check the air spring and lubrication, fit new seals and go from there. Fox 36’s have never been a problem for me even when I was a lot heavier, they always delivered a good balance of grip, support and comfort. I still maintain it’s something to do with the fact it has 34 internals. I will investigate it further so I will let you guys know ASAP.

 

[Fx1]

That fork is dealing with nearly 130kg.

Stiff casing plus carbon wheels and suspension which is preloaded to 130kg...

I did read somewhere on fox website that a certain adjustment makes the fork responsive whilst offering support in the mid stroke.

VARIABLE VALVE CONTROL (VVC)
FIT GRIP2 now features high-speed rebound using: Variable Valve Control (VVC).
It’s a way to adjust the high-speed rebound, effectively changing valve stiffness rather than adding preload.
Unlike normal adjusters that add valve preload, VVC uses a leaf spring to alter valve flex in the high-speed rebound circuit.

MID-VALVE
A sophisticated mid-valve design offers confidence-inspiring support that resists brake dive.
Tested and proven on the demanding World Cup Downhill circuit, GRIP2 has been relentlessly tuned to deliver just the right amount of support without harshness, giving it another level of refinement over previous generation dampers.

 

[JonasH]

Sounds really strange that the EMTB version of the 36 should be any more harsh than the normal version. Should in theory be opposite, less friction due to less contact area on 34 vs 36...?

 

[Changleen]

I’m not sure, but if I was going to guess it will be the 34 internals as the volume tokens still suggest the green ones

Hey, I just read through this thread. The fork you have is a great fork. I’m sure you can make it work, thousands of people do.

For your weight, I would probably remove all volume spacers from the fork. Volume spacers are basically so lighter people who still thrash can get a nice progressive ramp in their fork without having to run a high pressure to stop bottom out and therefore loose small bump plushness.

As a heavier rider, you generally want the biggest air volume possible. Get rid of the volume spacers, and start by running a significantly higher than recommend pressure in the fork.

Even as a 72kg rider I run 82psi on my Decoy’s Fox 36-e’s (cf pro), I think this is like 8-10psi over the recommendation and that will only ramp up as your weight rises. I run about 1/4 high speed and 1 or 2 clicks of low speed compression damping. Rebound settings vary but I have actually recently gone back to basically recommended for weight settings there, maybe a tiny bit lower/faster.

You need to find for you where it still has small bump plushness on the trails, but also can take a big hit without hurting you. Unfortunately as you need a higher pressure as a starting point it’s gonna be harder to judge this in the workshop, you need to go and ride a rough section 10x with a shock pump.

Also your tyre pressures are really low IMO. I try and run the lowest I sensibly can and I’m running a (replacement after I killed the first at 16psi) Maxxis DHR2 EXO+ 2.8 rear with Cushcore and I still run 19psi which is IMO occasionally low-feeling and little wiggly in the really hard corners for me. I haven’t totally settled on the front PSI but the lowest I go is probably 19 on the 2.5” stock, no Cushcore. I would recon you would be in at least 25psi and possibly higher on both.

Also the Decoy is indeed a made-for- progressive sus design so whilst a coil is probably good for your weight (I run 220psi on my stock, so I guess you would need to be up somewhere near the 300psi limit), air with it’s inherent ramp is the ideal so you should maybe find an actual progressive-wound spring for that shock.

My 2c.

 

[MTB_MIKE]

I am running a Yari that i’ve converted to a 180mm Lyrik Ultimate and have removed all the 4 tokens that came with it. The Air springs negative chamber is so large that the fork sags 7-8mm under its own weight and you can only get full extension of the fork when you lift the front wheel off the ground allowing the fork to fully extend. As a result, the fork is still very plush even with 20psi more than recommended air pressures. I think the Vorsprung Luftkappe for Fox 34 is your solution to get a larger negative air.
Also with more negative air and zero tokens, you have a more linear spring curve with more mid stroke support. With 10psi more than recommended and a larger negative air chamber, and all tokens removed, you will have excellent small bump compliance with more mid stroke support but have less bottomout support. I find this is ok since its harder to get to the bottom if your midstroke is more supportive.

 

[squeegee]

On my CF pro I recently serviced my 36 and removed all tokens, cleaned everything up, new oil and seals and it feels a ton better than it did when I received it 6 month ago. My 36 over the course of 6 months got harsher and harsher as time went on but now is like WOW.

The Vorsprung Luftkappe for Fox 34, is this the item you guys are referring to?

Vorsprung Luftkappe - 34 NA2 Evol 2018-19 (No Tools)

 

[MTB_MIKE]

On my CF pro I recently serviced my 36 and removed all tokens, cleaned everything up, new oil and seals and it feels a ton better than it did when I received it 6 month ago. My 36 over the course of 6 months got harsher and harsher as time went on but now is like WOW.

The Vorsprung Luftkappe for Fox 34, is this the item you guys are referring to?

Vorsprung Luftkappe - 34 NA2 Evol 2018-19 (No Tools)

I haven't confirmed it works but one of the members here states that it would.
Vorsprung has understood the benefit of a large negative air chamber for years and now Fox and Rockshox are finally playing catchup. Rockshox’s Debonair air springs have a much larger negative air chamber than Fox’s as they actually bore out the Air spring shaft and use the internal volume of the shaft to help increase the overall volume of the negative air chamber while not taking away too much real estate from the positive side. That’s why Lyriks are a bit more supple off the top than Fox 36’s. I wouldn't recommend getting a Luftkappe for a Debonair RS product but I would definitely recommend it for Fox products.

 

[Gemini2k]

The other down side is the weight. It’s very noticeable but by having the motor it gets cancelled out in a way but it will drain the battery quicker. It’s not a huge amount but it did have a slight effect on the range.

BS. Adding a coil shock adds maybe 1 pound to the bike, tops (unless these ohlins springs are using some special heavy steel?). Bike+rider is >200lbs. There's no way you're able to notice a change in battery range from a 0.5% change in system weight. The battery capacity probably naturally varies 2-3% per ride based on temperature.

That being said, coil shock does sound nice for this bike!

 

[brash]

yes that is the correct Lufftkappe for your purpose.

A coil conversion adds approx. 500g to a fork. I do Vorsprung Smashpot conversions all the time. There is 120ml of Oil added just to the spring side leg alone. The Push ACS3 is slightly lighter however the Vorsprung kit is a better solution IMHO.

Once riding, the weight is negligible, the performance increase is huge. On an ebike the grip generated by small bump sensitivity & sprung weight of the bike is amazing.

I strongly suggest having the fork serviced first, the air side will most likely have a big glob of slickoleum on the transfer port dimple creating harshness. New seals, foam rings and a good cleanout will reap performance gains for small outlay.