D3O tech, does it work?

[Swiss Roll]

I was looking at getting some body protection, and I saw that the wonder non newtonian material I have been seeing over the last few years has some products on the market.
Does it work?
cheers

 

[Tonybro]

I haven't put mine (knee pads) through a crash test but I would certainly hope so, otherwise they will be open to all sorts of law suits...

 

[steve_sordy]

Yes it works, but I found the knee and elbow guards were too bulky for my requirements.

 

[Swissrob]

I bought an upper body protection jacket for my son, he fell off a few times in the bikepark and didn't hurt those parts! He did say it was quite comfortable and not too hot. I watched a youtube about the material which is why I decided on 3Do

 

[Swiss Roll]

I haven't put mine (knee pads) through a crash test

come man, take one for the team...

 

[Swiss Roll]

I bought an upper body protection jacket for my son, he fell off a few times in the bikepark and didn't hurt those parts! He did say it was quite comfortable and not too hot. I watched a youtube about the material which is why I decided on 3Do

Sounds promising.
I have watched a few videos, but most seem to involve wrapping fingers in orange slime, and a light battering with a hi tech hammer. Which would be fine, if there were a lot of guys in the forest equipped with such.
I was more looking for an in action review, but noone seems to have the good grace to crash into a tree wearing them.
I am fascinated by the concept, and I wonder how quickly they firm up, and how quickly they soften. Is it at the speed of light? Or at the speed of molecular something-or-other (which I imagine would also be quite fast)?

 

[steve_sordy]

I believe that it as fast as the vibration of the impact passes through the material, which will be very fast. Think of the material as better than a damped fork at absorbing and transmitting shock.
I once went over the bars on Jacobs Ladder in the Peaks (a famous steep rock strewn descent). I was going as fast as I dared at the time and I was very lucky. I managed to do a forward roll and ended up upright and on my feet as I watched my bike bounce down the hillside.
I could not believe it! Not a mark on me....... and none on the bike either!

 

[JoeBlow]

I think I would pay more attention to a test in a lab to someone saying they came away unhurt. I have by the way. When I have been hurt in the past it has been the bits that were NOT protected. e.g. knees, so I bought knee pads (D30) and have not injured them since. Elbows, so I bought G Form elbow pads (similar principle) and have not hurt my elbows since. Ribs, so I bought a G Form compression T and have not hurt them since. The problem is that lack of injury could also be down to not hitting those specific bits since then

 

[JoeBlow]

I believe that it as fast as the vibration of the impact passes through the material, which will be very fast. Think of the material as better than a damped fork at absorbing and transmitting shock.
I once went over the bars on Jacobs Ladder in the Peaks (a famous steep rock strewn descent). I was going as fast as I dared at the time and I was very lucky. I managed to do a forward roll and ended up upright and on my feet as I watched my bike bounce down the hillside.
I could not believe it! Not a mark on me....... and none on the bike either!

At the risk of starting a furious debate, as happens on a climbing forum, when "the Peaks" are mentioned I should inform you that it is actually "the Peak". It's named after an ancient tribe and not that there are multiple peaks. Because there are not. The best argument I've heard for calling it "the Peaks" is that there are two areas. The "Dark Peak" and the "White Peak" reflecting the gritstone and the limestone areas but that's clutching at straws and is seldom used in that context.

Al

 

[Zimmerframe]

There's already quite a lot on this in the reviews sections and a couple of bodyarmour threads.

I think it's no secret that I have quite a history of crashing, so body armour is a bit of a passion of mine.

The first thing to remember is that ALL body armour is a compromise.

You're compromising between weight, heat, comfort, intrusiveness, flexibility, coverage, effectiveness.

D3O is attractive because it's flexible and, theoretically, reactive - so it hardens on impacts reducing transmitted shock forces.

The downsides of D3O is that it's heavy and a hot, it's a big wobbly lump of heavy foam stuck against your body. The other downside of D3O and any of the none newtonian armours is that they work far far better if they have a harder outer plastic skin/shell to spread impact forces over the pads area. Sadly, most don't - because it's complicated to add that and retain the flexibility, keep some air flow, it's more expensive to make - not just some super cheap goop you can bang in a mold for 10p and sell for £20.

In terms of comfort, they're better in winter as it's cooler. Hence why they first were used for Skiing. The downside being that they're often a bit stiffer when it's cold until they warm up.

They're are also lots of different types. D3O being the main one people know. Leatt do their own 3DF - slightly stiffer by default, so slightly more protective whether reacting or not. Sastec - often cheaper and can be warmer due to simpler designs/less venting.

Then you need to look at what bits you want armoured. Shoulders ? Elbows ? Knees ? Back ? Chest ? Kidneys ? Hips ? Coccyx ? Kidneys ? Stomach ?

You also need to keep in mind that armour won't make you immortal. It won't guarantee you won't break things. However, it will - or should, reduce the severity of impacts. So if you do fall and break a rib with armour on - you'd probably have broken several, punctured a lung and have severe lacerations if you'd not had the armour on.

Generally, the more parts you armour, the warmer you'll be. But again, fortunately, there are many different types and different solutions.

What you choose will depend on what you want to armour, where you ride (terrain/risk/temperatures), how you ride and other factors, like if it worries you if you end up looking like robocop or not.

Just some examples.

For the upper body for instance there's the TLD7855. This uses twin density foams sandwiched together which work really effectively for most off's, though you can still break ribs and so on if you crash impressively enough. Something like that has one of the largest armoured coverages available, yet only weighs about 700g. If you made the same thing with D3O it would weigh about 5kg's. It also breaths really well. It's negatives are you need to wear something underneath or it rubs your nippes and glues itself to you + the back armour is segmented so not as effective compared to a full length back protector - like nearly all armours it also runs short at the back to keep MX guys happy. The shoulders are also a bit lacking, but easy to swap out for better ones.

You might just want chest/rib/back - so something like a hard plastic/polycarbonate with foam TLD5900 (or similar) - wear it straight on your skin and you can barely tell you're wearing it - lighter, cooler, thinner, more effective, better coverage than something similar in D3O.

Or with some upper arm, shoulders, collar bone - the tld5955 - wear it over your shirt normally, though can be worn under but the shirt needs to accommodate the shoudlers.

Just shoulders ? Something like the Leatt Armoured Tee.

Ultimately, it's not JUST about buying the "BEST" body armour. It's pointless buying something which makes you feel like Iron Man if it's so hot, uncomfortable, restrictive, difficult to put on and off that you only wear it for 10% of rides. You ideally want to end up with something which you're comfortable wearing for 90-100% of rides - or it's not protecting you !

For something like knees, the 7iDP Sam Hill pads are comfortable, light, cool and effective. I've been off in these at least 100 times and have no knee injuries. They're getting a bit torn up now, but they still work. I tried several before I settled on these. I hate D3O for knee's.

Elbows, something like the Leatt 6.0's are comfortable and have a plastic outer to help spread sharper impacts.

If you're just worried about your back, then if you already take a backpack, maybe change to a backpack with inbuilt armour.

Most D3O "Jackets"/Tops will generally only have elbows/back/shoulders. If they have chest armour it's normally a useless bit of thin foam because more D3O makes it too heavy and hot - though the useless bit of thin foam is normally enough to make your chest hot without adding any relevant protection. They're fine for that, if you're happy just with protection in those areas.

I'll stop there as it's getting long and boring and it's mainly covered in other threads.

 

[Swiss Roll]

I think I would pay more attention to a test in a lab to someone saying they came away unhurt. I have by the way. When I have been hurt in the past it has been the bits that were NOT protected. e.g. knees, so I bought knee pads (D30) and have not injured them since. Elbows, so I bought G Form elbow pads (similar principle) and have not hurt my elbows since. Ribs, so I bought a G Form compression T and have not hurt them since. The problem is that lack of injury could also be down to not hitting those specific bits since then

That's a good protection strategy, but last time I crashed, everything hurt equally. My face took a mashing, so I got a ff helmet.

 

[Swiss Roll]

There's already quite a lot on this in the reviews sections and a couple of bodyarmour threads.......

That was a very informative and balanced overview, Thanks! Just what I need, experience from a seasoned crasher!

 

[Swiss Roll]

I believe that it as fast as the vibration of the impact passes through the material, which will be very fast. Think of the material as better than a damped fork at absorbing and transmitting shock.
I once went over the bars on Jacobs Ladder in the Peaks (a famous steep rock strewn descent). I was going as fast as I dared at the time and I was very lucky. I managed to do a forward roll and ended up upright and on my feet as I watched my bike bounce down the hillside.
I could not believe it! Not a mark on me....... and none on the bike either!

And how fast does it soften?

 

[Zimmerframe]

And how fast does it soften?

About 3 days to a week ...

Not really .. you won't really notice it harden - nor will you notice it soften. It's an instantaneous reaction - except it isn't - it's basically just memory foam - so you move it slowly it moves, but it doesn't like to move quickly. It doesn't always work either if they've messed up the mix or it's been stored incorrectly. I had some gloves which initially did nothing, they were just "soft" . Eventually they changed so they were just "hard" - like concrete.

 

[Swiss Roll]

About 3 days to a week ...

Ah, another downside..
so the answer to my question, does it work, is "sort of"

 

[Zimmerframe]

Ah, another downside..
so the answer to my question, does it work, is "sort of"

The more I use it and the more accidents I have with it .. the less I'm tending to use it, trust it, or like using it because it's hot and heavy.

I do like the Leatt 5.0 shorts though and whilst I had a big off a while ago with them and got bruised. The 3DF hip pad certainly reduced impact damage and the lower "foam" pad reduced bruising (the bruise shape follows the shape of the pad). These work well as they're not heavy/hot and work better than expected. Though again, it's an example where the 3DF isn't used for both pads as it would be too heavy/hot.

 

[Mcharza]

Ah, another downside..
so the answer to my question, does it work, is "sort of"

Still better than a t-shirt ?

 

[Mikerb]

Most manufacturers of body armour work to get their products tested and approved to relevant standards. Very often competitions stipulate that gear is worn to those standards. For us the relevant standard is the European Motor Cycle Standard EN 1621-1 ( all armour except back and spine) and EN 1621-2 ( back and spine).
There are no separate standards for MTB/Ski/Board etc.
You can look up EN 1621 to see the way in which products are subjected to impact forces and measured in order to comply with the standard.

All of my armour is Leatt........had a few crashes including one on a rock garden that totalled my helmet. No injuries other than grazing and brusing on any part of my body protected ( knee pads, airfit jacket, 3df shorts). Worse injury was a deep bruise on my thigh on an area between the hip pad and thigh pad of the shorts ( and a cut head!).

So if you want some scientific back up, select kit that conforms to the standards.

ps hard plastic/poly protectors ( ie without any type of impact foam) are designed to protect against flying stones not impacts.

 

[Pdoz]

I prefer other brands to d30 on a purely discomfort based analysis.

D30 is stiff until warmed but still remains stiffer than other brands, I've also had it degrade over time (12 months) and then tear as it was inserted ( in a klim motorbike jacket) . It's relatively heavy , and the time I have crash tested it feelt hard. Still effective , but almost like wearing cheaper hard armour without enough soft padding. Admittedly that armour was 4/5 years old and arguably should have been replaced. The original, but no longer the best?

I LOVE the " x armour " in ixs flow knee pads. Over the bars knee cap vs sharp rock , I swear I could feel a progressive dampening effect. Like hitting a rock garden with perfect tyre pressure, dampening, and then realising you have just enough tokens in the forks.

G form feels similar , but almost as though you are using tyres that are too thin and thin fork legs - just before making contact the brain tells the back pocket that ixs might be a better investment in future.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Yes it certainly works in knee pads and surprisingly i have it in the soles of my riding shoes and it absorbs loads of the trail shock

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

They have been using this stuff in motorcycle gear for much longer than MTB - I'd suggest you check out the opinions in that context if you require more information.

The main difference is the level of protection - the protectors are much thicker and designed to absorb more energy for moto gear which makes them completely unsuitable (heavy, hot, bulky) for MTB.

 

[#lazy]

There's already quite a lot on this in the reviews sections and a couple of bodyarmour threads.

I think it's no secret that I have quite a history of crashing, so body armour is a bit of a passion of mine.

The first thing to remember is that ALL body armour is a compromise.

You're compromising between weight, heat, comfort, intrusiveness, flexibility, coverage, effectiveness.

D3O is attractive because it's flexible and, theoretically, reactive - so it hardens on impacts reducing transmitted shock forces.

The downsides of D3O is that it's heavy and a hot, it's a big wobbly lump of heavy foam stuck against your body. The other downside of D3O and any of the none newtonian armours is that they work far far better if they have a harder outer plastic skin/shell to spread impact forces over the pads area. Sadly, most don't - because it's complicated to add that and retain the flexibility, keep some air flow, it's more expensive to make - not just some super cheap goop you can bang in a mold for 10p and sell for £20.

In terms of comfort, they're better in winter as it's cooler. Hence why they first were used for Skiing. The downside being that they're often a bit stiffer when it's cold until they warm up.

They're are also lots of different types. D3O being the main one people know. Leatt do their own 3DF - slightly stiffer by default, so slightly more protective whether reacting or not. Sastec - often cheaper and can be warmer due to simpler designs/less venting.

Then you need to look at what bits you want armoured. Shoulders ? Elbows ? Knees ? Back ? Chest ? Kidneys ? Hips ? Coccyx ? Kidneys ? Stomach ?

You also need to keep in mind that armour won't make you immortal. It won't guarantee you won't break things. However, it will - or should, reduce the severity of impacts. So if you do fall and break a rib with armour on - you'd probably have broken several, punctured a lung and have severe lacerations if you'd not had the armour on.

Generally, the more parts you armour, the warmer you'll be. But again, fortunately, there are many different types and different solutions.

What you choose will depend on what you want to armour, where you ride (terrain/risk/temperatures), how you ride and other factors, like if it worries you if you end up looking like robocop or not.

Just some examples.

For the upper body for instance there's the TLD7855. This uses twin density foams sandwiched together which work really effectively for most off's, though you can still break ribs and so on if you crash impressively enough. Something like that has one of the largest armoured coverages available, yet only weighs about 700g. If you made the same thing with D3O it would weigh about 5kg's. It also breaths really well. It's negatives are you need to wear something underneath or it rubs your nippes and glues itself to you + the back armour is segmented so not as effective compared to a full length back protector - like nearly all armours it also runs short at the back to keep MX guys happy. The shoulders are also a bit lacking, but easy to swap out for better ones.

You might just want chest/rib/back - so something like a hard plastic/polycarbonate with foam TLD5900 (or similar) - wear it straight on your skin and you can barely tell you're wearing it - lighter, cooler, thinner, more effective, better coverage than something similar in D3O.

Or with some upper arm, shoulders, collar bone - the tld5955 - wear it over your shirt normally, though can be worn under but the shirt needs to accommodate the shoudlers.

Just shoulders ? Something like the Leatt Armoured Tee.

Ultimately, it's not JUST about buying the "BEST" body armour. It's pointless buying something which makes you feel like Iron Man if it's so hot, uncomfortable, restrictive, difficult to put on and off that you only wear it for 10% of rides. You ideally want to end up with something which you're comfortable wearing for 90-100% of rides - or it's not protecting you !

For something like knees, the 7iDP Sam Hill pads are comfortable, light, cool and effective. I've been off in these at least 100 times and have no knee injuries. They're getting a bit torn up now, but they still work. I tried several before I settled on these. I hate D3O for knee's.

Elbows, something like the Leatt 6.0's are comfortable and have a plastic outer to help spread sharper impacts.

If you're just worried about your back, then if you already take a backpack, maybe change to a backpack with inbuilt armour.

Most D3O "Jackets"/Tops will generally only have elbows/back/shoulders. If they have chest armour it's normally a useless bit of thin foam because more D3O makes it too heavy and hot - though the useless bit of thin foam is normally enough to make your chest hot without adding any relevant protection. They're fine for that, if you're happy just with protection in those areas.

I'll stop there as it's getting long and boring and it's mainly covered in other threads.

Well … I’ve got the sleeveless version and am pretty happy with it ?

 

[JoeBlow]

With regard to the efficacy of D30, I trust the data, up to a point, but I would happily rely on user feedback for issues such as comfort, fit and practicality. I recall seeing a video where a weight is dropped from height onto a pile of Smarties. Without D30 they shatter, with D30 they survive in tact so it proves something if only that it would protect your trail mix

 

[Zimmerframe]

Very often competitions stipulate that gear is worn to those standards. For us the relevant standard is the European Motor Cycle Standard EN 1621-1 ( all armour except back and spine) and EN 1621-2 ( back and spine).

The standards give you some basic guidelines but you need to be careful to not just rely on these and do lots of other research for what's actually right for you. Some things to watch out for, CE2 is not twice as protective as CE1 for instance, it's about 30% more. CE1 back has a far higher resistance to CE1 everywhere else. There was supposed to be CE3 but Alpinestars and Dianese managed to campaign against it's introduction because they didn't have anything which complied.

The tests generally involve measuring the energy passed after some nicely shaped metal ball is dropped on it - in the real world, most of the things we impact are not nicely shaped round things, they're sharp and pointy. D3O without external re-enforcement is pretty crap against pointy things, which is one of the reasons I hate it for knees, other than heat, weight, discomfort. So you're just relying on a bit of foam isolating you from a nasty rock hurting you - often, fortunately, we get away with it.

The coverage areas are also crap for the CE tests. You might find a nice CE2 back protector, but it actually only protects a tiny area of your back, as it's not designed to optimally protect you, it's just designed to pass the test. You'll also find some things where the testing is somewhat questionable. I had one Alpinestars top where the chest would have struggled to fend off a papercut - yet was magically CE rated. That's not to say some Alpinestars stuff isn't good, I use Alpinestars shoulders in my TLD7855 and they're excellent. Though they're not D3O.

ps hard plastic/poly protectors ( ie without any type of impact foam) are designed to protect against flying stones not impacts.

That could also be confusing. A lot of hard shell chest/back protectors are also sold as "Roost Guards" to obviously help with not getting shreaded by flying gravel. However a lot of these are also standard body protectors. The main problem with the hard plastics is if they've not been thought about, they can be presented in a form which is too rigid and doesn't conform to the body shape. Several are well designed though and many incorporate hinged sections. Ideally though, you do want one with some form of foam behind to help with impact absorption and also with air distribution, with the foam's creating air channels behind the plastic.

Here's the TLD5900 for instance - lots of air channels, raised sections, open sections, hinged sections. With something like this you can also add or remove panels and sections depending what you want and no, you don't feel the fixings against your skin.

(Will link to the reviews as I'm too lazy to download/upload the images again or search for them here )

Review - Troy Lee Designs 5955 (TLD5955) Chest Protector

Product name: Troy Lee Designs 5955 Chest Protector Price paid: £190 Score (out of 10): 6 Review: Another Golden oldie from Troy Lee Designs. Like the 7855 it's also been around for 9 years - for the simple fact that it's good ! I'd discounted this from all my early research due to it's age...

www.emtbforums.com

Where as here with the Alpinestars Bionic - the foam has, proportionally, hardly any venting - even though the plastic shell does ....

Review - Alpinestars Bionic Plus Protection Vest

Product Image: Product name: Alpinestars Bionic Plus Protection Vest Price paid: €100 Score (out of 10): 6 Review: Eternally in search of the "ultimate" protection .. I tried the Alpinestars Bionic Range. The "Bionic" Upper body protection range consists of three products. The Alpinestars...

www.emtbforums.com

In term of "Heavy Weight" protection, the newish Leatt 6.5 Body protector is a serious bit of kit. The arms etc are one compression top with the hard armour going on over the top. For MTB the hard armour looks a bit heavy/bulky. In an ideal world you'd be able to buy the compression top and match it with a TLD5900 for all round great protection without bulk. But sadly, whilst they sell the chest section separately, you can't buy the compression top separately - which is a bit dumb as some people would want a couple so they can wash them for instance !

But back to the main question .. D3O .. does it work .. I'm still sticking with "Sort of" .. but I think it's easy for us all to be sucked in by the marketing of a magic solution which isn't bulky and stays flexible whilst ignoring the downsides. Is it better than nothing, yes - much !