Convince me of this tubeless idea

[Dax]

No it’s not
As it needs another cassette and an other pair of discs. Swapping tyres with tubes is way quicker anyway and I have three sets of tyres as said. So three pairs of wheel 3 cassettes and 6 discs. Really? Why stop there, 3 bikes?

As it happens I do now have a spare set of wheels as the stock ones are chocolate, but that’s a whole other rant and I won’t be using those agsin

No need for three cassettes, it's about a minute to swap a cassette from one hub to another. Running three cassettes would not work well unless your are swapping wheels very regularly, as the cassette, chain and chainring wear together and using a less worn cassette with more worn chain will usually cause shifting issues and skipping.

Arguably two bikes may not be a bad idea, one for riding on the road (imagine if there was a genre of bikes specifically for this!!) and a mountain bike you swap the tyres on to suit the season.

 

[KnollyBro]

You ride rocky terrain ?

I think that question is relative. The North Shore, Squamish and Whistler have its fair share of rocky terrain but it depends on which trail you choose (my tag line shows the trails I ride). I use Cushcore front and rear and run tire pressures at F:18 and R:20 on carbon wheels which between my wife and I, we can switch wheels around, if necessary. From your OP, it sounds like you spend a lot of your time on the road on road tires? Having spent so much money on an emtb, a cheap set of wheels for the road would be worth it for me.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

This is really easy to do, it takes like 5 minutes at most. And brake rotors are like 100 quid at most for two.

But yes I still disagree with the two sets of weeks

You sir are becoming a feature

 

[Gazemtb]

So the main problem I have with tubeless is the mess.

The second problem I have is the insert making changes a pain

These are problems because, I change tyres a fair bit. Road tyres for road trips and some summer (schwalbe marathon they have that Kevlar (?) insert under the tread )

Winter E mazza 2.6 front and back for the clay and mud.

In between probably go back to the stock tyres or similar.

So that’s three tyres changes x2 a year minimum depending on road rides. Plus tubeless set ups do seem to go flat occasionally anyway.

I see a benefit of tubeless like running low pressures and the insert means you can run flat and stop pinch flats

But I run sealant in my tubes (not stans that burger source looking stuff) and that seems to seal ok. The only thing missing is the run flat insert element. Which I don’t miss really as intend to run higher pressures for less rolling resistance for battey life ( Orbea rise)

That’s kind of it really. What have i
missed ?

I run Magic Mary front 2.6 back 2.4 I am tubeless with a Cushcore in rear, first of all pain to seat but with help of a power shot was easy then fill Muc-off sealant through valve. Not regretted I can run pressures at any I want would not go back to inner tubes.

 

[Montana St Alum]

But I run sealant in my tubes (not stans that burger source looking stuff) and that seems to seal ok. The only thing missing is the run flat insert element. Which I don’t miss really as intend to run higher pressures for less rolling resistance for battey life ( Orbea rise)

I haven't yet gotten an ebike (I'm 70 and finally will this summer), but I have ridden a lot with my youngest son (32 y.o. now) and time my climbs/rides to get an idea of what gear and tires/shock pressures are fastest. That's just so I can keep up with him a little better. My climb times are consistently faster at lower tire pressures. It's a different animal than road biking.

When riding trails, higher pressure does not translate into lower rolling resistance.
Higher pressure tires don't deform, so they "sink" more into soft soil, which increases rolling resistance. Higher pressure also causes tires to bounce around in technical terrain which requires energy to overcome, and as you go up and over obstacles a higher pressure tire will tend to be "stopped" more by those obstacles. And, the axle path is flatter with lower pressure, which reduces energy demand.

Regarding the higher mass of inserts, tubes with slime, etc., if you keep a very steady pace, the higher rotating mass of heavy tires, inserts, tubes with sealant doesn't make a huge difference in power draw, but if you are slowing and accelerating a lot, that rotating mass really does make a big difference. So, on long climbs (I'm in the Wasatch, so long steady climbs from 6800' to 9800' are not unusual) heavier tires don't make a huge difference, but on the trails where there is rolling terrain - accelerations and decelerations - the difference is significant.

I converted to tubeless when the technology was young, and I'll swap tires during the season. It's not a big deal with sealant. I ride in Moab and southern Utah a lot, which is hard on tires! I've never used inserts, I run low pressure, and I haven't had a flat in decades. It's pretty nice not worrying about it.

But you've found something that works for you. Keep doing it.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Oh yes I’d forgotten the need for new power shot pump. I mean really this is not necessary for just the use of a cush core

I still feel the idea is to stop sharp objects piercing the tyre in the first place. Then you don’t need the sealant at all. The Cush core I get even above the pita if fitting.

Dt Swiss rim tape is not slippery either. The tyre won’t slide out to seal the rim. Then your missing around with soap, oh sigh….

 

[gaba]

I run tubeless with Stan’s and cushcore. Changing the tire with cushcore can be a chore. Tubeless over tubes is a no-brainer for me. Simple to setup. It’s not messy at all. I add sealant after I set the bead with an air compressor using a syringe on the valve stem. If you have to add a tube because of a flat on the trail, I can see the mess, but I haven’t flatted in 5 years.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

I run tubeless with Stan’s and cushcore. Changing the tire with cushcore can be a chore. Tubeless over tubes is a no-brainer for me. Simple to setup. It’s not messy at all. I add sealant after I set the bead with an air compressor using a syringe on the valve stem. If you have to add a tube because of a flat on the trail, I can see the mess, but I haven’t flatted in 5 years.

And you dont swap tyres…. But fair enough if it works for yo …. Hold on…. 5 years. But you’ve had to change a tyre in that time, right?

I haven’t flatted with tubes provided it’s got burger source in, or the tyre is a schwalbe marathon

 

[KnollyBro]

And you dont swap tyres…. But fair enough if it works for yo …. Hold on…. 5 years. But you’ve had to change a tyre in that time, right?

I haven’t flatted with tubes provided it’s got burger source in, or the tyre is a schwalbe marathon

Convince me of that Burger source in tubes on a schwalbe marathon tyre as the wave of the future.

 

[fasterjason]

I have long been adverse to tubeless (told the Mavic outside rep 20 years ago to his horror). I have to run high pressure (25/30 psi F/R 2.6"width) despite weighing 165 or 75, so the low pressure variable is not considered. I can change mounted tubeless tires without making a mess but would rather not. Since last year I have been running some sealant in a tube (29+ tube) with great results. I have impact crushed a rim where the tube held but you could see the tire bead. After that I got a cushcore that I have thought about modifying to use with a tube, but have not bothered to try it yet. That said I am building up a spare rear wheel to use the cushcore with a lower gear cassette (11-46) for the mountains (rocks and thorns in spring).

Full disclosure, my SS race bike and bio trail bike are tubeless without sealant mainly because of the rim strip and they hold air for a day when I occasionally use them.

Summary for ebikes, a tube with a little sealant is the path.

 

[gaba]

And you dont swap tyres…. But fair enough if it works for yo …. Hold on…. 5 years. But you’ve had to change a tyre in that time, right?

I haven’t flatted with tubes provided it’s got burger source in, or the tyre is a schwalbe marathon

I’ve actually been running tubeless for over a decade. My whole family of 4, plus I help set up and ride with a half dozen to a dozen friends. It’s ridiculous how few issues we’ve had out on the trail. Sure, I change tires as the tires wear. Probably 2-3 sets a year. Nothing like new rubber. I’m quite efficient at changing them now. Soapy water with the cushcore is a must. With the riding I do, I’d pinch flat 5-6 times a season with tubes. No thanks. I hate dealing with it on my rides out on the trail. To me, a bit more work at home to ensure my days out are fun makes sense. To each their own.

 

[Teaman]

I use mine for commuting and serious damage MTB in the peak.
I ride tubeless but I do have two sets of wheels which whilst expensive at first. I can run tyres of choice. Currently I'm running minions on my commute but tube at the back thanks to none tr tyres and a slightly dinged rim.
My other wheels are E,Deemax with inserts and eddy current so hopeless on road. Grip like a beast off road.
Tubeless was a way of reducing weight but on an ebike it's not important to be honest.
If you are happy using a tube set up with something like Slime then that's fine.
I I'll always ride tubeless off road as the tyres respond better. Especially cornering. They deform more reactively creating a consistent feel. Tubed though has to run higher pressure to stop pinch flats so corners aren't as smooth.

Unless you're hammering it I doubt anyone can notice much difference.
Hope that helps

 

[fasterjason]

I’ve actually been running tubeless for over a decade. My whole family of 4, plus I help set up and ride with a half dozen to a dozen friends. It’s ridiculous how few issues we’ve had out on the trail. Sure, I change tires as the tires wear. Probably 2-3 sets a year. Nothing like new rubber. I’m quite efficient at changing them now. Soapy water with the cushcore is a must. With the riding I do, I’d pinch flat 5-6 times a season with tubes. No thanks. I hate dealing with it on my rides out on the trail. To me, a bit more work at home to ensure my days out are fun makes sense. To each their own.

Opposite of my pro-tube position, but I agree with all of this, especially "To each their own." We all ride trails, but our trail experiences are different. I think we can all agree ebikes eat tires.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Convince me of that Burger source in tubes on a schwalbe marathon tyre as the wave of the future.

Not at the same time. That would be total over kill. Why on earth would you do that? Convince me of that. Just stupid

 

[vman]

After 35 years of tubed tires I finally gave in to tubeless - in my use case there are more benefits than negatives to running tubeless so I spent some time trying to make living with tubeless as easy as possible. Here are my thoughts on how to reduce the negatives in running tubeless than may make you lean towards using them.

The learning curve to mount tubeless tires can be a bit frustrating, to make things easier I found that a little soapy water plus alternating between using your palms or thumbs to roll the beads off or on has made it pretty easy to do even on tough to mount wheels and tires.
As far as getting the beads to set, I did invest in a Bontrager Flash Can ($70) which makes setting the beads easy to manage.
Agreed that sealant can be a bit messy but it is really easy mess to manage that cleans off very easily with a simple paper towel unlike trying to manage a shock or brake oil spill nightmare.

As far as managing the performance of the tubeless system I check it every 4 to 6 months and top it up some if it has been dealing with lots of flats - many people who complain about the sealant not working have failed to realize that they must maintain the sealant level and sealant quality in their tires. Finally, for trail side emergencies I always keep some some Dart/Bacon Strips and always carry a tube and small air pump - I hate walking a bike home.

V

 

[Montana St Alum]

Full disclosure, my SS race bike and bio trail bike are tubeless without sealant mainly because of the rim strip and they hold air for a day when I occasionally use them.

My tires hold air without sealant, as long as the wheel is set up properly with a tubeless ready tire. The sealant is there to seal holes, not to hold air.
But there's almost no penalty that I can see from running tubes with sealant in an ebike. Any extra weight is more than covered by the motor.

 

[gaba]

After 35 years of tubed tires I finally gave in to tubeless - in my use case there are more benefits than negatives to running tubeless so I spent some time trying to make living with tubeless as easy as possible. Here are my thoughts on how to reduce the negatives in running tubeless than may make you lean towards using them.

The learning curve to mount tubeless tires can be a bit frustrating, to make things easier I found that a little soapy water plus alternating between using your palms or thumbs to roll the beads off or on has made it pretty easy to do even on tough to mount wheels and tires.
As far as getting the beads to set, I did invest in a Bontrager Flash Can ($70) which makes setting the beads easy to manage.
Agreed that sealant can be a bit messy but it is really easy mess to manage that cleans off very easily with a simple paper towel unlike trying to manage a shock or brake oil spill nightmare.

As far as managing the performance of the tubeless system I check it every 4 to 6 months and top it up some if it has been dealing with lots of flats - many people who complain about the sealant not working have failed to realize that they must maintain the sealant level and sealant quality in their tires. Finally, for trail side emergencies I always keep some some Dart/Bacon Strips and always carry a tube and small air pump - I hate walking a bike home.

V

Great point on the bacon strips. I have a kit that screws into my handlebar end. I carry a pump as well. For the few problems I’ve encountered with others on the trail, it’s gotten the job done.

 

[bazxa]

Riding tubeless' hate the mess but a tyre only lasts 6 months so worthwhile. The punctures leave a witness mark & there would have been 8-10 punctures over the tyre life. It works foe me. off road only all year. Claimed weight & cost saving i'm definitely not convinced.

 

[donald.o]

So the main problem I have with tubeless is the mess.

The second problem I have is the insert making changes a pain

These are problems because, I change tyres a fair bit. Road tyres for road trips and some summer (schwalbe marathon they have that Kevlar (?) insert under the tread )

Winter E mazza 2.6 front and back for the clay and mud.

In between probably go back to the stock tyres or similar.

So that’s three tyres changes x2 a year minimum depending on road rides. Plus tubeless set ups do seem to go flat occasionally anyway.

I see a benefit of tubeless like running low pressures and the insert means you can run flat and stop pinch flats

But I run sealant in my tubes (not stans that burger source looking stuff) and that seems to seal ok. The only thing missing is the run flat insert element. Which I don’t miss really as intend to run higher pressures for less rolling resistance for battey life ( Orbea rise)

That’s kind of it really. What have i
missed ?

I’m riding both tubeless and tubes - lucky enough to have several bikes, one emtb, and several mtb and road. On road bike I ride least I do use tubes, as sealant hardens too fast when not ridden regurarly. In my younger years I was quite efficien in changing tubes, but as it happened too often (sometimes twice per ride), I embraced tubeless from the start. Only twice in 15 years I had a slash so big that sealant was unable to seal correctly. So, no brainer for me. I’m quite efficient in changing tires even with sealant still liquid, sometimes you can save some, often you can’t, but this does not bother me. I’m running quite low pressures even on road bikes (2 bar front, 2.3 bar back) without problems. On emtb, no tire inserts, 1 bar front, 1.2 bar rear. I’m 90 kilos and bike is 23 kg, plus backpack etc. No problems with rims, carbon or alu. I ride very rocky terrain on Dalmatian coast and cobination of rock, soil, roots, mud, snow - depending on season, on the Croatia continental part where I live.
So, if you change tires often and want absolutely no mess, use tubes. Turbolito works quite good, more restistant than butyl and much lighter. I you like low pressure and hate changing tubes, tubeless is a blessing. And tire inserts, unless you like really big jumps, bike parks, enduro/dh racing - not necessary at all.

 

[Expidia]

When I was a kid around 1963 I can still remember working in gas stations repairing some of the few cars that came in with flats with tubes tires.
It was a lot easier plugging tubeless tires. And there was no sealant swishing around in the tubeless tires in those days which could have prevented future flats as it does with bike tires now a days.

Tubed tires vs tubeless . . . the tubed tires were more prone to a huge blow out compared to tubeless which just slowly leaked air out after picking up a nail etc.

So it's now 68 years later after they stopped making tubed tires for autos and I finally joined the tubeless club after two flats with two different emtb's.
First was a nail and second was a small shard of metal. Both events probably would have been sealed by sealant.

I've found I'm more prone to picking crap up when I pull in tight to the curbs on roads trying to avoid cars on my way to the trails.
I think nails and crap tend to get blown towards the curbs from the wind of the passing cars.

I picked up a Bontrager Flash Charger TLR floor pump for in home bead seating and a Stan's Dart kit for on the trail repairs.
I also picked up a light weight Tubolito for my emergency trail kit.

 

[emtbPhil]

I don't want to contribute to another tubeless argument
But I will say even though I 100% would NEVER run tubes (went through like 4 in a single holiday- 2 years tubeless not a single issue)…. if I was changing tyres 2 or 3 times a year I'd probably not go tubeless

Seating the tyres is easy, you don't need a powershot thingy - but the god damn slime gets everywhere and is horrid.
I've never once felt the need to change my tyres though - I run Big Betty / Magic Mary all year round - even on the road, the motor gives so much assistance I don't feel like I need to go back to faster rolling tyres.

 

[Dax]

Oh yes I’d forgotten the need for new power shot pump. I mean really this is not necessary for just the use of a cush core

I still feel the idea is to stop sharp objects piercing the tyre in the first place.

Depending on the tyre/rim combo, you may or may not need a power shot pump. My housemate recently seated some just using a track pump, personally I'm lazy so just use the airline.

The sealent is also to seal the tyre against the rim, not just about punctures from sharp objects.

Do what works for you, but you won't convince people here who use tubeless that it's a bad idea

 

[KnollyBro]

I haven’t flatted with tubes provided it’s got burger source in, or the tyre is a schwalbe marathon

What did you mean?

Not at the same time. That would be total over kill. Why on earth would you do that? Convince me of that. Just stupid

But you would like others, to take their time, to convince you that tubeless setups are worth the time and effort when you clearly have a system that you prefer, for the limited amount of mountain biking you do. So why bother asking in the first place? I am sure you are capable of doing the research and trying it for yourself and making your own decisions.

 

[emtbPhil]

Honestly these tubeless vs tubed arguments are monthly.

The people who run tubes are happy and with the casual biking they do fair play. They will never listen to the benefits of tubeless because they don’t need it. If you’re doing roads and trails tubes are fine. If you’re dropping down rock gardens and going off piste you’re gonna have a bad time.

I don’t know why people try to turn it into Xbox vs PS or Android vs iPhone and constantly try to convince people they’re wrong.

I wouldn’t even try arguing with someone on an emtb forum running schwalbe marathons

 

[LeftItLancs]

Slime and a Tannus insert work well for me. To date, four years or so, I have not had a single puncture with that set up. Of course, if I rode harsher terrain, miles from anywhere, then I would probably consider tubeless.

 

[Nautical Biker]

My e-bike came Tubeless so I have stuck with it. I am not a fan though. My analogue hardtail runs tubes with sealant inside them instead. Having had trailside repairs to do on both bikes last year I must say tubes are far easier to deal with in mucky conditions. Trying to get a muddy 2.6 tubeless specific tyre off the rim and then put a boot patch inside to fix a a slash whilst sealant and trail crap goes everywhere is just not pleasant.

 

[maynard]

When I purchased my first eeb . I was constantly changing tubes . Setup tubeless had one large puncture which sprayed muc everywhere but got me home and I put a plug in it and was fine. I've carried a tube for years for emergency which i gave to a newb on the side of the trail and helped him change it . Then I ripped bead of trye a few days later . Had to push bike home about 5 kms . That was over a year ago . And im due for a new rear trye now . Yeh tubes suck . That's just my opinion. I find setup pretty easy and i just use whatever tape I find in the shed . I have a fancy pump now ,first 3 or 4 I did with regular pump .

 

[ilostmypassword]

Tubeless and cushcore is where its at.