Complete new drive train - cheaply

[Doug Stampfer]

I've been following the most durable chain thread in the general forums but was wondering if someone could hold my hand & advise what would be a cheaper setup would work with my 2020 rail 7 hub etc
I am quite happy to go to a 10 speed & good old steel as long as it has a 51Tooth to get up the hard stuff. If it's cheap I wouldn't have a problem replacing it when I should rather than the usual wait till there's only tooth left on the cassette method.

 

[Philly G]

As far as I know, Shimano license their microspline, unlike their old HG freehub which is open source, so it's more expensive to make after market microspline cassettes and freehub bodies. I don't think there's many non-Shimano microspline cassettes around. Garbaruk make one, but at $250 USD you won't be wanting that. I honestly think your best bet is just to get an SLX Shimano 12 speed cassette and chain. To run anything else, such as Sunrace, you will need to change your freehub body to a SRAM XD or an Shimano HG, which will bump up your costs. And because the HG has less, and broader, splines, you would need to get a steel HG freehub body, otherwise your cassette will bite deeply into the splines, making changing the cassette a PITA and eventually wrecking the freehub body. If you use a 10 speed cassette, you would ideally want a 10 speed shifter; you could limit the shifts with the derailleur's limit screws but it's a bit of bodge. I think your cheapest option is just to stick with what you have.

 

[Gary]

The whole point in running 10speed on an Ebike is because with a motor to assist you generally don't need a massive sprocket cassette.

If for some reason you really do need a 10t and 51t sprocket stick with 12speed

Shimano is cheaper than sram in running costs with 12spd (cassettes)

 

[d7e8wd]

I run 10spd saint group on my 9.7 with an 11-36 xt cassette and haven't had a problem with the ratio (live in the Surrey hills so fairly steep).
Best groupset out there, I rode it with the eagle group for a month or so and the 50t with a motor is just not needed at all, I find you break traction too easily with all that torque.

When I took the old cassette off the first two cogs were practically unused, and 3rd gear is 36t. Basically made my mind up for me.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Thanks Gents. Good to know.

 

[Rostle32]

I run 10spd saint group on my 9.7 with an 11-36 xt cassette and haven't had a problem with the ratio (live in the Surrey hills so fairly steep).
Best groupset out there, I rode it with the eagle group for a month or so and the 50t with a motor is just not needed at all, I find you break traction too easily with all that torque.

When I took the old cassette off the first two cogs were practically unused, and 3rd gear is 36t. Basically made my mind up for me.

I run 10spd saint group on my 9.7 with an 11-36 xt cassette and haven't had a problem with the ratio (live in the Surrey hills so fairly steep).
Best groupset out there, I rode it with the eagle group for a month or so and the 50t with a motor is just not needed at all, I find you break traction too easily with all that torque.

When I took the old cassette off the first two cogs were practically unused, and 3rd gear is 36t. Basically made my mind up for me.

Just been messing cleaning my drivetrain on my rail 7 ( am on my 2nd , cheaper all steel deore 12 speed cassette )which I changed at 1200 mile , most of the larger chainrings were pretty damn good , just skipping on the smaller ones,
Could you list for me, what you changed to run 10 speed please , freehub , cassette, shifter , rear mech , etc ,
cos I'm very interested in goin this route cheers ??

 

[AME]

Following with interst

 

[Hamina]

I run 10spd saint group on my 9.7 with an 11-36 xt cassette and haven't had a problem with the ratio (live in the Surrey hills so fairly steep).
Best groupset out there, I rode it with the eagle group for a month or so and the 50t with a motor is just not needed at all, I find you break traction too easily with all that torque.

When I took the old cassette off the first two cogs were practically unused, and 3rd gear is 36t. Basically made my mind up for me.

I don't know exactly your setup but for curiosity I made some calculations on random bikestore. It seems that after start cost you can save approx. 25-30 euros per cassette but actually with this setup you pay 30 euros for worse range on paper. You could change the chainring but then again its a tradeoff for maximum speed.

The torque problem could be solved with new EMTB Lite mode (if you have not already ride all the time with eco and still have too much torque).

It's a different discussion whether one needs it or not as it's dependent on your riding and land profile.

SHIMANO
57.30€ Shimano XT CS-M771-10 10-speed Cassette
130.25€ Shimano Saint RD-M820 10-speed Shadow Plus Rear Derailleur
57.30€ Shimano Saint SL-M820-B-I 10-speed Shifter w/ I-Spec
24,49 € Shimano Ultegra / Dura Ace / 105 CN-6701 10-speed Chain

269,34 €​

SRAM
85.44€ SRAM PG-1230 12-speed Cassette for NX Eagle
119.83€ SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed Rear Derailleur - 2020 Model
36.46€ SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed Trigger Shifter - 2020 Model
23,96€ SRAM PC GX Eagle 12-fach Kette

265,69​

Prices from bike-components | Fahrradteile & Fahrradzubehör Online Shop

Don't get me wrong: I'm very interested to find a competitive Shimano combo to challenge in price and durability my current NX/GX Sram drivetrain package.

 

[Gary]

NX is not comparable to Saint in quality. Not even close.
For a closer quality comparison compare Deore to GX. (deore is still higher quality tho)

 

[aarfeldt]

I've just gone from 11 spd to 10 spd with these parts:

SRAM PC 1051 10 speed chain.
Shimano Deore XT 10 speed casette 11-36.
Shimano ZEE mech M640-SSW FR.
Shimano Zee handlebar shifter 10-speed.

All very cheap (could have actually gone a bit cheaper with the casette and chain) and works quite nicely.
I like it.....and it looks cool without the stupid mega large sprocket, that we never use anyway.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

With a new freehub?

CSHG50cassette ($75) & pc1051 chain($51) shifter ($50) derelieur ($130) plus freehub $176NZ = $482NZ vs
SLX cassette ($190) & chain ($64)= $250ish

but then its only a 36 tooth. I use the top 3 gears all the time.

 

[Philly G]

With a new freehub?

CSHG50cassette ($75) & pc1051 chain($51) shifter ($50) derelieur ($130) plus freehub $176NZ = $482NZ vs
SLX cassette ($190) & chain ($64)= $250ish

but then its only a 36 tooth. I use the top 3 gears all the time.

Strangely enough, looking at a couple of shops, the SLX and Deore cassettes are around the same price

Shimano Deore M6100 12 Speed Cassette | Cassettes

<p> <strong>With its BEAM SPIDER construction, the new SHIMANO DEORE M6100 12-speed cassette shaves weight while increasing SHIMANO's MTB gearing range another

www.torpedo7.co.nz

Shimano SLX M7100 12-Speed Cassette

Shimano SLX M7100 12-Speed Cassette at Evo Cycles. With its Beam Spider construction, the SLX M7100 12-speed cassette shaves weight while increasing Shimano's MTB gearing range another gear

www.evocycles.co.nz

only difference seems to be the 51T is alloy on the SLX
I do have a 10 speed derailleur, shifter and cassette I took off my Remedy, so I could do this "upgrade" for just the cost of the freehub, but I appreciate the wide range cassette and while I may not use the 51T that much, I do use the others. Sure, the 10 speed chains and cassettes are a lot cheaper (around $45 for a 10sp cassette vs $200 for 12sp), but if you had to buy everything you needed for the conversion from scratch, that's quite a few cassette/chain changes just to make your money back, let alone start saving.

 

[d7e8wd]

I don't know exactly your setup but for curiosity I made some calculations on random bikestore. It seems that after start cost you can save approx. 25-30 euros per cassette but actually with this setup you pay 30 euros for worse range on paper. You could change the chainring but then again its a tradeoff for maximum speed.

The torque problem could be solved with new EMTB Lite mode (if you have not already ride all the time with eco and still have too much torque).

It's a different discussion whether one needs it or not as it's dependent on your riding and land profile.

SHIMANO
57.30€ Shimano XT CS-M771-10 10-speed Cassette
130.25€ Shimano Saint RD-M820 10-speed Shadow Plus Rear Derailleur
57.30€ Shimano Saint SL-M820-B-I 10-speed Shifter w/ I-Spec
24,49 € Shimano Ultegra / Dura Ace / 105 CN-6701 10-speed Chain

269,34 €​

SRAM
85.44€ SRAM PG-1230 12-speed Cassette for NX Eagle
119.83€ SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed Rear Derailleur - 2020 Model
36.46€ SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed Trigger Shifter - 2020 Model
23,96€ SRAM PC GX Eagle 12-fach Kette

265,69​

Prices from bike-components | Fahrradteile & Fahrradzubehör Online Shop

Don't get me wrong: I'm very interested to find a competitive Shimano combo to challenge in price and durability my current NX/GX Sram drivetrain package.

Yea that's pretty much the breakdown, as @aarfeldt mentioned the quality difference is night and day, in my opinion SRAM stuff is just awful. Obviously you can go 10 speed with more range but as I mentioned I don't need more range, the 36t is fine.

By far the best feature is the double upshift on the Saint shifter, rips across the cassette under acceleration.

I got the derailleur new off pinkbike for £70, shifter was 45 or so, cassette and chain about 70 too.
Sold the nx stuff for more which is an absolute joke imo ?

 

[Gary]

I actually hate the stiff unsmooth lever throw feeling every single Saint shifter I've ever used has had.
SLX 10speed had that same multishift both ways feature with a smother lever throw.

 

[d7e8wd]

I actually hate the stiff unsmooth lever throw feeling every single Saint shifter I've ever used has had.
SLX 10speed had that same multishift both ways feature with a smother lever throw.

Each their own I guess, I can't get enough of it! Kerrr-thunk feels so good

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Strangely enough, looking at a couple of shops, the SLX and Deore cassettes are around the same price

Shimano Deore M6100 12 Speed Cassette | Cassettes

<p> <strong>With its BEAM SPIDER construction, the new SHIMANO DEORE M6100 12-speed cassette shaves weight while increasing SHIMANO's MTB gearing range another

www.torpedo7.co.nz

Shimano SLX M7100 12-Speed Cassette

Shimano SLX M7100 12-Speed Cassette at Evo Cycles. With its Beam Spider construction, the SLX M7100 12-speed cassette shaves weight while increasing Shimano's MTB gearing range another gear

www.evocycles.co.nz

only difference seems to be the 51T is alloy on the SLX
I do have a 10 speed derailleur, shifter and cassette I took off my Remedy, so I could do this "upgrade" for just the cost of the freehub, but I appreciate the wide range cassette and while I may not use the 51T that much, I do use the others. Sure, the 10 speed chains and cassettes are a lot cheaper (around $45 for a 10sp cassette vs $200 for 12sp), but if you had to buy everything you needed for the conversion from scratch, that's quite a few cassette/chain changes just to make your money back, let alone start saving.

Yes almost worth it to buy a cheap good bike with a broken frame or fork & use the wheel & driveline to mullet the rail.
Are you thinking the Deore would be longer lasting?
Yesterday at the bike shop I used the mechanics parktool chain measurer. It had 2 sizes on it. I could slip the 0.5 end inbetween the links but not the 0.75 end meaning I could get a bit more use before replacing. I bought a different kind of measuring tool thinking it would be good to have at home, it's a graduated one & when I tried it it read 0.75- Grrrr. Gonna have to go back & mark on the new one the same measurements as the mechanics good one

 

[Philly G]

@Doug Stampfer Yes I suppose the Deore would be longer lasting if you use the 51T a lot, since that cog is steel vs alloy on the SLX. But really I was just surprised to see them at the same-ish price, I expected the Deore to be at a lower price point.
With the chain checker tool, I think it's the case that for 10speed and lower 0.75 is the wear limit, but for 11speed and above its 0.5. I have, so far, stuck to this rule, but having read other rider's experiences just running the whole drivetrain to the ground and replacing all at once, I think you actually get the same, if not more, mileage than changing the chain at 0.5 wear, and changing the whole drivetrain after 3 chains. I think performance-wise the shifting might be better just letting it all wear together; sometimes you can get skipping after putting a new chain on a cassette that's had 2 chains-worth of wear already. My chain was at 0.5 wear after just 500kms...maybe I'm doing something wrong? Pretty sure @Gary just lets his whole drivetrain wear out together, and he gets some very impressive mileages. I did use his tip of adjusting the B-screw to get more chain wrap on the smaller cogs, which has my bike shifting smooth as butter

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Yes I hear the wearing of the chain happens expotentially after 0.5. I think evo have some cheap chains at around $40ish so may try one & see how they go as an experiment. I would def go Deore for the cassette as I'm in the 51 all the time. In fact as I'm a spinner, it is very rare that I use the lower half of the cassette.
I think as far as the pricing goes, it's all over the place with supply issues. We were very fortunate buying our bikes when we did.

 

[Philly G]

I think as far as the pricing goes, it's all over the place with supply issues. We were very fortunate buying our bikes when we did.

100% !!! They've all gone up in price. I'm definitely very pleased I made the jump when I did. But given that so many who live in Europe & the States are waiting another 6 months for their new bikes, I'm surprised the supply here is so good. I could get a Rail 7 from Evo today. It would just cost 2K more than what I paid for mine!

 

[Doug Stampfer]

100% !!! They've all gone up in price. I'm definitely very pleased I made the jump when I did. But given that so many who live in Europe & the States are waiting another 6 months for their new bikes, I'm surprised the supply here is so good. I could get a Rail 7 from Evo today. It would just cost 2K more than what I paid for mine!

Hence the charger & dvo coil upgrade - I'm saving money.
I was amazed how many rails were in Evo the other day. However give it a week & they'll prob be gone. Interestingly T7 are now stocking Whytes. They're a good looking bike & I would have thrown one of those into the choice however althoough it wasn't a consideration at the time the easily removable battery on the rail is handy.

 

[Philly G]

Interestingly T7 are now stocking Whytes. They're a good looking bike & I would have thrown one of those into the choice however althoough it wasn't a consideration at the time the easily removable battery on the rail is handy.

Yes I highly rate the Whytes, they are very stable/planted on the trail, ride and handle very well. My first go on an e-MTB was on one of Bike Glendhu's hire bikes (after the Bonty hub failure on my Remedy lol) and I was hooked after that. I couldn't live without the easily removable battery on the Rail though, and being tall I've discovered I definitely prefer 29ers. A friend of mine got a Whyte RS just before Christmas, he loves it.

p.s. those cheap $40-ish chains from Evo won't do the trick, you have to use a 12 speed chain because they are narrower, to suit the tighter spacing of the cogs. Here's a 12 speed Shimano chain, $60, looks like it's the 126-link one too, which is what you want, the 116 link too short.

SHIMANO CHAIN SLX 12 SPEED W/QUICK LINK CN-M7100

CN-M7100 SLX – 12-Speed – HYPERGLIDE+ – SIL-TEC – MTB Chain The M7100 chain provides enhanced chain retention thanks to an extended portion of the inner plate. The new chain features quick-link assembly and SIL-TEC treatment for extended offroad durability. Proprietary design ensures smooth...

www.cyclenation.co.nz

 

[Rosemount]

Yes I hear the wearing of the chain happens expotentially after 0.5. I think evo have some cheap chains at around $40ish so may try one & see how they go as an experiment. I would def go Deore for the cassette as I'm in the 51 all the time. In fact as I'm a spinner, it is very rare that I use the lower half of the cassette.
I think as far as the pricing goes, it's all over the place with supply issues. We were very fortunate buying our bikes when we did.

I have been taking note of cadence while on MTB club rides .
Majority of E bikers grind in harder gears . Don`t change gears as often as I do .

Ignorance is bliss I guess .

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Yes I highly rate the Whytes, they are very stable/planted on the trail, ride and handle very well. My first go on an e-MTB was on one of Bike Glendhu's hire bikes (after the Bonty hub failure on my Remedy lol) and I was hooked after that. I couldn't live without the easily removable battery on the Rail though, and being tall I've discovered I definitely prefer 29ers. A friend of mine got a Whyte RS just before Christmas, he loves it.

p.s. those cheap $40-ish chains from Evo won't do the trick, you have to use a 12 speed chain because they are narrower, to suit the tighter spacing of the cogs. Here's a 12 speed Shimano chain, $60, looks like it's the 126-link one too, which is what you want, the 116 link too short.

SHIMANO CHAIN SLX 12 SPEED W/QUICK LINK CN-M7100

CN-M7100 SLX – 12-Speed – HYPERGLIDE+ – SIL-TEC – MTB Chain The M7100 chain provides enhanced chain retention thanks to an extended portion of the inner plate. The new chain features quick-link assembly and SIL-TEC treatment for extended offroad durability. Proprietary design ensures smooth...

www.cyclenation.co.nz

Yes I'm a convert to the 29er movement too.
Ummm I got a cheap sram nx eagle 12s 126 chain for $42. I have heard it doesn't support the hyperglide but am I better taking it back than trying it? They were scratching their heads about getting one in from their suppliers so I could buy onlinr from your recommended shop but really it's a pretty cheap alternative unless it's going to stuff the cassette

 

[HumphreytheBear]

Here’s my take after 4000km - bit over but only maybe 200 km
trek fs7 - delivered with xt shifters n derailler - 1300 km
got a stick chain mangled - broke the rear mech ......1700km
new chain dura race and xt derailleur.
replaced with sun race M8 10-46 , still going strong . Wear is minimal visually
chains i replace @ .75 it’s been a muddy winter here and I caught another stick on Sat , but I have a new chain to go on .
( 3rd chain , so they are good for approx 1300 km - ridden in mud and sand - but lubed - roll n roll lube )

I would recommend the Sunrace - or an XT rear cassette - the XT has the coating which gives better wear ,I’m fairly sure the SLX doesn’t .
but an XT Cassette ranges in price from $150 - $200 aud - so get em on special
Sunrace range from $110 - $150 again on special .
dura race chains are about $85 , but I bought one from a German mob , so it’s was the equivalent of approx $70 (€35) .

I have considered going to an 11-42 cassette , but for $5 is it worth it , there are some hills steep enough to o need the highest cog .
if it was super muddy , I’d say get an slx ,and an chain - any type - as it will be sacrificial !
esp in some of the winter conditions you have in UK .

 

[HumphreytheBear]

so , sticks are bad - okay ,
deraillieur , speed sensor , chains - oh 3 spokes in the last 100 km ....

 

[HumphreytheBear]

Tyres n sticks ....
Possibly worn out - Hans Dampf compared to Nobby Nic


sorry , all unrelated to chains n cassettes - but we love pics !

 

[Philly G]

@Doug Stampfer Oh I didn't see the Sram NX chains on Evo. It's up to you of course, but NX is at the bottom of the Sram pecking order . If it was me, I would definitely go for the SLX chain, it's only $18 more and it's going to work much nicer with the Shimano hyper-glide drivetrain than the Sram chain will. But you've already bought it so...you could return it? I wouldn't say it's going to damage the cassette or anything, but you might find it shifts like a bag of rocks. I think you're going to get much smoother shifting for your extra $18

 

[Philly G]

I have been taking note of cadence while on MTB club rides .
Majority of E bikers grind in harder gears . Don`t change gears as often as I do .

Ignorance is bliss I guess .

Well changing from acoustic to e-MTB is just a change in bike, it doesn't change the rider. A rider who has always had mechanical sympathy for their drivetrain will carry that over to e-MTB, those who don't, won't...I certainly don't grind in harder gears, the motors don't work like that, you need to have the right cadence just like a normal bike, if you're in the wrong gear the motor is not going to get you up that climb. I may use a harder gear than I would on my acoustic bike, because the assistance allows me to do that, but I'm not grinding, I'm pedaling at a cadence appropriate to the terrain. Of course I get caught out in the wrong gear from time to time, just as I would on my normal bike, but I use the gears just as much on my eeb as on my acoustic, if it's getting harder to pedal up the hill I'll shift (not under load) to an easier gear

 

[Rosemount]

Tyres n sticks ....
Possibly worn out - Hans Dampf compared to Nobby Nic


sorry , all unrelated to chains n cassettes - but we love pics ! View attachment 49095 View attachment 49096

Yes ! People who live in places with no Eucalyptus trees will never know the joys of riding in Oz .
Sticks on the ground every where waiting to insert into wheels , brake rotors and derailleurs and sticks that fly up in the air and become spears when the person in front of you runs over them .
I too was comparing a worn Hans Dampf with my relatively new Nobby Nic . Close .

 

[Gary]