Cold garage. Do I need a bike with removable battery?

[stuhawk]

Have to store my bikes in the garage and as the UK is not known for its favourable weather the garage is cool in the summer and cold the rest of the year, in fact very cold during the winter. Have got a deposit on a Orbea Rise but have some concerns about battery life and charging which will also have to be done in the garage. So should I really be considering bikes with removable batteries? Thanks for any advice given.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It's time for some life changing decisions .. It's going in the house !!

The batteries don't mind being stored cold. Lithium actually loses less charge when stored cold.

BUT ! You don't really want to charge a battery from cold. (or hot - like not straight after using turbo on a ride).

If the battery is cold when you go for a ride it won't perform as well, so you'll get less power and range. Ideally it wants to be warm before hand to get the most out of it.

So yes, in your situation, you probably want a removable battery. A large amount of the Bosch motored bikes have relatively easily removable batteries which are as simple to charge on the bike or off the bike.

 

[highpeakrider]

Both my bikes have lived in and been charged in a Peak District garage and I’ve never had any issues, I usually do a charge before I go out and ride.

I assume if you take a battery from indoors and fit it, then go out in very cold weather that battery will get to the same temp as one just charged in a garage.

 

[Mikerb]

Regardless what bike you buy I would reconsider dismissing the idea of keeping the bike in the house in the winter............for 2 main reasons. The first is security. No garage is secure. The second is damp. An unheated garage in the UK in the winter can get very cold and worse still, damp. Whilst the cold may not be ideal for the battery, the damp is the worst enemy for an ebike. In the winter the bike is likely to get wet but all the frame and casings around the battery and motor will be warm. You then transfer that to a cold damp garage and condensation will form everywhere within the motor casing and battery housing. Anything a bove 10 degrees and the garage is fine so depending where you are in the UK you are looking at c 3 months a year when the bike would be much better kept indoors.

 

[highpeakrider]

Regardless what bike you buy I would reconsider dismissing the idea of keeping the bike in the house in the winter............for 2 main reasons. The first is security. No garage is secure. The second is damp. An unheated garage in the UK in the winter can get very cold and worse still, damp. Whilst the cold may not be ideal for the battery, the damp is the worst enemy for an ebike. In the winter the bike is likely to get wet but all the frame and casings around the battery and motor will be warm. You then transfer that to a cold damp garage and condensation will form everywhere within the motor casing and battery housing. Anything a bove 10 degrees and the garage is fine so depending where you are in the UK you are looking at c 3 months a year when the bike would be much better kept indoors.

So based on this should I be taking my car inside for the winter?
Do you have any evidence that this is the case if the bike is stored within the manufacturer’s recommended temperatures?

 

[Tubby G]

Have to store my bikes in the garage and as the UK is not known for its favourable weather the garage is cool in the summer and cold the rest of the year, in fact very cold during the winter. Have got a deposit on a Orbea Rise but have some concerns about battery life and charging which will also have to be done in the garage. So should I really be considering bikes with removable batteries? Thanks for any advice given.

I also have a Rise on order and will be keeping it in the lounge in winter rather than the garage. Alternatively I could keep a heater running in my garage over winter, but the Rise is such a good looking bike I’ll be happy to chill out on the sofa with it on those cold dark evenings!

 

[highpeakrider]

The user guide seems to provide the relevant information

BATTERY STORAGE INSTRUCTIONS
· Store the battery in a safe place away from reach of infants and pets.
· If the battery is stored in temperatures which are outside

may occur.
· Storage Temperature range: 0°C ~ 35°C, avoid big temperature changes.
· If you are not going to use the battery for a long period of time, store it away with approximately 70% of battery charge. Check the charge level every three months and never let the charge drop below 10%.
· Store the battery or bicycle on which the battery is ins- talled in cool indoor places (approx. 0°C ~ 25°C) where they do not become exposed to direct sunlight or rain. If the storage temperature is low or high, the performan- ce of the battery is reduced, and its available range per charge will be reduced. When you use the battery after a long storage period, be sure to charge it before use.
· Temperature above 70 °C may result in battery leakage and rupture.

Only use the battery within the discharge temperatu- re range: –10°C ~ 50°C.
· Only charge the battery within the charging tempera- ture range: 0°C ~ 40°C.
· The battery must be charged in an ambient temperatu-

· If the battery has been charged in a low temperature environment (0 °C or below), the available range per charge will decrease.

https://www.orbea.com/downloads/products/RISE_2021_BLUEPAPER_EN-ES-FR-DE-ITa.pdf

 

[Zimmerframe]

So based on this should I be taking my car inside for the winter?
Do you have any evidence that this is the case if the bike is stored within the manufacturer’s recommended temperatures?

It's not just temperature, it's also humidity as Mike says. I think if you read any of the recommended guidelines they normally state temperatures of use as quite extreme, but temperatures of storage/charging to be ideally room temperature.

If you start with a warm battery an are using it, it will stay warm - a battery is inefficient and converts some energy to heat with use.

For example - in a ride :

If the battery is cold to start with, it's very inefficient and more energy gets converted to heat - which will warm it up - but you'll loose a lot of range before it gets upto an efficient operating temperature.

And yes. If you keep your car in a garage rather than outside, there will be less temperature fluctuations with use which will increase longer term reliability and life span.

Electric cars, for example a Tesla, will ideally pre-heat the battery pack before use (ideally from the mains, but sacrificially from itself if it has to) so it's not obscenely inefficient and damaging to the pack - the energy being used to heat it with heaters , being less than the energy wasted from inefficiency and heating it that way.

 

[Mikerb]

So based on this should I be taking my car inside for the winter?
Do you have any evidence that this is the case if the bike is stored within the manufacturer’s recommended temperatures?

A better comparison would be...would you leave your £1500 laptop in the garage all week??
Cars have enjoyed decades of development.........if like me you owned a car in the late 1960s, yes the damned thing might actually start in the morning if you kept it indoors .

You asked for advice. I base my advice on personal experience and a good understanding of both mechanical and electrical devices and systems. Like it or not the electrical systems on all EMTBs are primitive to say the least!
My 2019 Levo Comp has suffered zero electrical problems because the electrical components are properly protected ( by me) and my storage method as stated is to keep the bike in the house when temperatures are consistently below 10 degrees. My mate with a Levo does exactly the same...........he has also had no electrical issues. Neither bike is spared the wettest, muddiest winter rides the UK winter can offer.

 

[highpeakrider]

Whilst I may agree extreme cold weather will affect performance.
However in the Peaks we have gone from frosts every day in winter, to mild winters with one or two frosts per season and a few light days of snow, we simply don’t have the extreme winters of old. If this bike was used in Canada or somewhere like Quebec I’d be saying keep it indoors as you are looking at -27 or worse.

Unless someone can show me 2 bikes of the same type, one kept indoors one stored in a unheated garage and from that detail the decline of components of the gagage stored bike over the indoors bike, my personal view having kept and used my ebike in the Peak District over the winters is my bike didn’t seem affected by the winter abuse it got.

Mine lives in the garage is charged in the garage all year round with zero issues.

 

[Konanige]

Can only speak from experience, my bike lives in the garage, I live in the garage and so therefore has my £1500 laptop (for about 6 years), along with a vast collection of expensive cordless tools (these are out in all weathers during work hours). Have dried the tools out on a few occasions with hairdryer, laptop has had the occasional drip from the corrugated roof, and the bike goes away wet when its been washed. So far no issues with anything, tools still work, bike still at 100% after 2000 miles and I can still watch Porn! Just go out and buy the bike you want, enjoy it and do the best you can with whatever situation you have.

 

[highpeakrider]

A better comparison would be...would you leave your £1500 laptop in the garage all week??

My home network and network storage lives in the same garage, does that count?

 

[Konanige]

OOOOH you have an artexed ceiling thats a bit of a luxury!!

 

[Mikerb]

I assume you do not take that box of tricks out on wet muddy ride?? thought not!!
Is your garage integral? Artex roof would not survive in my detached double garage over winter and it is built out of thermo blocks and I live on the south coast. Windsurf and Kayak gear kept in there are covered in condensation during the winter....fortunately both lots of gear are designed for the water

 

[7869hodgy]

I store mine in a UK shed and have no issues. I did buy a £30 heater which I have on a timer so it on/off throughout the day/night when super cold. Keeps the moisture out of the air.

 

[highpeakrider]

@Zimmerframe Ive never used the full capacity of my Whyte battery even in the summer.
In winter it tend to do shorter rides, so losing a few miles of range is a non issue.

 

[highpeakrider]

I think over the years we have had a few issues from Focus owners who suffered a non charging issue but that was related to the model number of the charger supplied rather than the bike.

I can’t recall any posts that directly related to bike issues from storing a bike in an outside garage or shed?

We have had lots of battery performance chat along the way though

 

[highpeakrider]

I assume you do not take that box of tricks out on wet muddy ride?? thought not!!
Is your garage integral?

not really, it’s a bungalow , so one one is attached and double skin, the others are single skin stone walls, apex roof but with no insalation, don’t get any condensation in it thoug.
washing machine pipes used to freeze now and then but that hasn’t happen for years as our winters are a lot milder now.

 

[steve_sordy]

My garage is brick built with a thermo breeze block inner wall and rock wool insulation. The roof is not insulated. Until last week the two up and over steel sheet garage doors were not insulated either. The garage gets very hot in summer and cold in winter, but rarely below freezing. I'm hoping that the insulation I fitted to the doors will reduce heat gain in summer and heat loss in winter, we shall see. The silvery finish to the insulation has almost doubled the light level though.

The bike and battery live in the garage all year round and I've had zero problems so far, two and a half years in. Early on I did have a problem with the charger not charging when the charger was below 10degC and the battery was in a low state of charge. But that was convincingly proven to be a problem with that batch of chargers and not a battery problem.

Driving somewhere in winter with the bike (and battery) outside the car will quickly blast chill the battery and keep it at that temperature. This may be worse for the battery than any length of time stored in a cold garage. So if your battery is easily removable, it may be beneficial to keep the battery in the car while en-route to the trail.

 

[jerry]

...but all the frame and casings around the battery and motor will be warm. You then transfer that to a cold damp garage and condensation will form everywhere within the motor casing and battery housing.

Damn, and here I am thinking that condensation occurs when moist/warm air hits a cold surface. Now it seems it's the other way 'round! Who knew!

 

[Mikerb]

Damn, and here I am thinking that condensation occurs when moist/warm air hits a cold surface. Now it seems it's the other way 'round! Who knew!

partially correct. Any interface between warm air and a cold surface together with the presence of moisture.........so the motor is hot, the battery is hot..........the frame, which is not sealed, is exposed to cold air in the garage .........hence you get condensation forming inside the frame.

 

[Gardcol]

Have to store my bikes in the garage and as the UK is not known for its favourable weather the garage is cool in the summer and cold the rest of the year, in fact very cold during the winter. Have got a deposit on a Orbea Rise but have some concerns about battery life and charging which will also have to be done in the garage. So should I really be considering bikes with removable batteries? Thanks for any advice given.

I’ve had my Rise since February in the north of Scotland. I keep it in my garage and I bought a cheap silent night low voltage electric blanket and when the temperature was low would wrap it round the down tube. It’s costs about 1p a night and I have it plugged into a timer. Absolutely no issues.

 

[Calsun]

Charging is a problem at ambient temperatures below freezing. If your garage is not heated then a removable battery would be important.

 

[1oldfart]

Giant is fast and easy to remove. Get my Ebike in daily is what i do.

 

[steve_sordy]

Although I have no need of it, I still like @Gardcol 's idea of the budget electric blanket.

 

[Homeyjay]

I bring both our bike batteries in after each ride and charge them both after around 45 mins, giving them time to cool from use. Always have, all year round.

 

[MountainBoy]

Charging is a problem at ambient temperatures below freezing. If your garage is not heated then a removable battery would be important.

e-Bikes have passive thermal management unlike advanced electric cars like those from Tesla that have a glycol based thermal management system. I live in the Pacific Northwest of the US and for three seasons of the year the battery management system in my Tesla is often using the waste heat from the motor to gently warm the battery. Sometimes even in the cooler days of summer. My point is, if you want maximum life from your battery, it likes it warm rather than cool. 75 degrees is about optimum for charging. Discharging is less temperature sensitive but it still prefers it above 60 degrees F. 80 degrees F is not considered too warm although the battery will warm somewhat with both charging and discharging. For storage, the cooler the better, right down to 32 degrees F. However, it can take a couple of hours or more for a pack that is cold to come up to ideal temperature for riding or charging.

I have a Scott Strike with a 625 watt/hr powertube that I store inside in an unheated room in the winter that averages 55 degrees F and in the coolest room in the summer. However, I always warm it back up before charging (and sometimes before riding). None of this is too critical unless you want your battery to last for many years and retain as much range as possible over that time. The most important thing by far is charging temperature. Anything over 80 degrees F or under 70 degrees F becomes increasingly less than optimal. I also try to take it off the charger before it reaches 100% unless I know I will be using it for an extended ride.

We wouldn't need to manage battery temperature if eBikes did it for us like many electric cars do but they don't. Of course, even if you ignore all these guidelines, you will still get a few years out of your battery but who wouldn't want to extend the life and available range as much as possible?

 

[RsGaz]

Although I don’t bother myself, if anyone is really worried about the battery in their bike in a cold garage, simply put a small tube greenhouse heater under your bike and throw an old duvet cover over it to trap in the heat.

 

[Banksay]

There's an easy solution to this. If you have a wife/partner, then divorce/break-up with the aforementioned and keep it in the living room. Problem solved.

 

[MountainBoy]

There's an easy solution to this. If you have a wife/partner, then divorce/break-up with the aforementioned and keep it in the living room. Problem solved.

View attachment 83284

What percent of eBikes have batteries that can't easily be removed in 5 seconds? I thought they all had removeable batteries until I read about one today that didn't.