Cockpit tuning

[Mikerb]

After riding c 400 miles (all offroad) on my Whyte E180 RS I have decided I want to change the cockpit, preferably to raise the bar height and also reduce the reach a little.
I appreciate the E180 is primarilly a gravity enduro bike and that is mostly how I use it, preferring my Levo for less demanding trails but following a 25 miles ride yesterday I have pinpointed a couple of characterisitcs I would like to change.
The bike is a size large and I am 183cm /6ft but with long legs and relatively short torso so I find both in the seated position and the ready position I am quite heavy on the bars which makes unweighting the front end more difficult and requires more rearward movement. Existing bars a re Raceface Turbine 35mm with 35mm rise on a Raceface Atlas stem 35mm long 0 degrees rise. Stem stack is 40mm with no stem spacers a bove.

So options I have considered:-
1. Renthal Fatbar 35mm with 40mm rise on a Renthal Apex stem 33mm long with 6 degree rise. I am not sure how much difference it would make in practise, is an expensive option, and does nothing to decrease reach.
2. Renthal Fatbar 35mm with 40mm rise and retain the existing stem. Lower cost than 1. but less height gain.
3. Change the stem to a Nukeproof Horizon 35 with 35mm length but 5mm rise. This stem has a stack of 35mm so would need an additional 5mm spacer under it which would add bar height and reduce reach marginally. About the same cost as 2.
4. Retain existing stem and fit a Deity 35mm bar with 50mm rise. Given the amount of additional rise over and a bove the exisiting 35mm I could reduce that slightly by rotating the bar away from vertical towards the seat and reduce reach a little. Again a bout the same cost as 2.

Any thoughts on the options a bove??

 

[steve_sordy]

No 4 will make a noticeable difference vs existing, with the ability to tone it down a bit if required. And if it doesn't work out, you can always revert and sell the Deity.

I too am thinking of raising the bars. I don't need them any closer, just higher. I have problems with my neck that a higher bar would ease.

 

[Mikerb]

No 4 will make a noticeable difference vs existing, with the ability to tone it down a bit if required. And if it doesn't work out, you can always revert and sell the Deity.

I too am thinking of raising the bars. I don't need them any closer, just higher. I have problems with my neck that a higher bar would ease.

I made quite a lot of changes on my Levo and just love the riding position now....it also transformed the bikes handling. I changed from 150 RS Revs to 160mm Lyric ultimate so gained 10mm plus another 10mm because the 2021 airpsring does not sit down 10mm under its own weight like the old one. I cut the steerer 10mm longer and used 2 additional stem spacers.........and changed from 25mm standard bars to Nukeproof Horizon 40 mm bars. So come to think of it, I went full out on the Levo and its great so maybe the 50mm riser bar is not such a big change as it might suggest...as you say.

ps dont know what bar width you use, but reducing it raises your torso a little, and just as importantly it stretches your chest muscles less, which in turn, provides more support for the neck muscles. I run 780 on the Whyte and 760 on the Levo. Given the Whyte is 27.5 I think I could probably go down to 760 on that bike as well.

 

[steve_sordy]

You raised the front of the Levo by quite a lot, did you notice any difference in the climbing ability?

I had 760 flat bars on the Focus, but that was already quite a tall bike. My Merida is 780 with a 20mm rise, but it feels a bit low. I'm having to look up too much to see the trail ahead. It is not the bike's fault; my neck is the problem.

 

[Mikerb]

You raised the front of the Levo by quite a lot, did you notice any difference in the climbing ability?

I had 760 flat bars on the Focus, but that was already quite a tall bike. My Merida is 780 with a 20mm rise, but it feels a bit low. I'm having to look up too much to see the trail ahead. It is not the bike's fault; my neck is the problem.

The Levo was originally 27mm rise bars.
Yes, I had to change riding position for climbing. I am stood on the pedals with a fair bit of weight on the bars and keep my weight low on the bike to maintain rear traction. My riding mate (also on a Levo with 160mm fork) does the same climbs in the saddle with saddle extended and him just perched on the tip of it. Once I worked it out I can clean all the climbs on my local trails with no problem.
The improvement just on the flat and specifically downhill was quite amazing. Obviously quite a bit of the downhill increase in ability was down to the change of fork to something with more travel and significantly better progression. It is however still noticeable that I have more
ability to unweight the front wheel rather than forcing it into the terrain.
On the flat it is now much easier to lift the front end.
I am looking to make simiar improvements with my Whyte albeit that bike has very different geometry.

Some things you can take a look at before commiting to a new set of bars include checking your existing bars are set with their rise perpendicular to the ground. I very often see riders with their bar rise in line with the angle of the forks. That results in less rise, less reach and also less bar upsweep. You could also see if you have any stem spacers a bove the stem. If so swopping it/them to below the stem will raise the front end but also reduce reach. A plush SAG setting on the fork also keeps the front end lower once riding. A reduced SAG of course does the opposite.
My body proportions ( relatively short torso) seem to be most suited to a bike that has the saddle, when on full extension, level with the top of the stem.

 

[Mikerb]

............and I found 760 an improvement over 780. I think 29er already makes the steering a bit lazy albeit it provides more leverage but at 760 it quickens the steering nicely without any noticeable lack of control. In my local forests where gaps between trees is often quite narrow I am certainly far less prone to clipping one now!!

 

[Mikerb]

Option 4 done. Deity 50mm rise and cut to 770. No proper ride yet but they felt great just messing around on the road and grass banks in the lane outside my house. Even at full dropper extension I am no longer leaning on my hands. With the post slammed I can feel how much easier it is to alter the weight balance front to back of the bike.

 

[Mikerb]

I tried it with the bars rotated a little towards the seat and with the rise fully perpendicular. Quite surprised I preferred the latter so reach is the same which should make less difference to climbing. Yet to test that but climbing is not a big priority on this bike so not worried.

 

[aviserated]

I installed the shortest reach Industry Nine 30 mm stem. It also gave me the option of flipping to raise or lower height about 5mm. This helped for a tad more upright riding position without go too upright. A less wide bar also helps (trim bar a tad).

 

[Jeff McD]

Curious where you got the fact that the rise needs to be perpendicular to the ground. I've never read that before. Only read that you should start with the riser bar grips pretty much horizontal then rotate slightly forward and backward for comfort. Would be interested where are you found that other recommendation. On my bike if I rotate the 40 mm rise handlebars forward so that the rise is perpendicular to the ground the handlebar grip is angled way upwards and very uncomfortable. So I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Thanks. Well I am editing this response as I now realize after studying it further that I confused backsweep with the rise. So please disregard. OK I understand what you are recommending now. Thanks for the advice I will try it.

 

[steve_sordy]

@Mikerb I must say that it looks a bit extreme. Not a criticism, just not seen one as high as that before. May well be doing that myself before too long.

 

[Mikerb]

Curious where you got the fact that the rise needs to be perpendicular to the ground. I've never read that before. Only read that you should start with the riser bar grips pretty much horizontal then rotate slightly forward and backward for comfort. Would be interested where are you found that other recommendation. On my bike if I rotate the 40 mm rise handlebars forward so that the rise is perpendicular to the ground the handlebar grip is angled way upwards and very uncomfortable. So I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Thanks. Well I am editing this response as I now realize after studying it further that I confused backsweep with the rise. So please disregard. OK I understand what you are recommending now. Thanks for the advice I will try it.

OK.....the amount of rise in the bars is measured from where is attaches to the stem to the part of the bars where the diameter reduces to the same as the bar ends ( each measure point being the centre of the diameter). For the amount of rise provided by the bars to be at its maximum it must be vertical...ie perpendicular to the ground. As you say the bars also have 2 other profile changes albeit they vary a little from brand to brand. Firstly there is upsweep. This is the amount the bars bend slightly upwards from the outer measureing point of the rise to the bar ends. This is usually c 5 or 6 degrees. If you roll the bars from the perpendicular position towards you, you reduce both rise and upsweep and also slightly reduce reach.
The bars have a 3rd profile change which is the backsweep. This is usually about 9 degrees and it is how much the bars bend toward the rider measured again from the outer measurement point of the rise to the bar ends. Both upsweep and backsweep are designed to provide the optimum position for the wrist which you should aim to have straight and inline with your forearm, and with slightly bent elbows ( more or less as preferred riding style for different riders).
Backsweep also works in conjunction with the width of the bars. In general the wider the bars the more backsweep is required to keep the wrists at a comfortable and strong angle. In practise most brands use the same backsweep with a bar width of 780 or 800 so many cut bar width to suit their body shape.

 

[steve_sordy]

@Mikerb Which Deity did you get. You mentioned the dimensions but not which type.

 

[Mikerb]

@Mikerb Which Deity did you get. You mentioned the dimensions but not which type.

Deity Highside 800 alu bar 35mm bore 50mm rise .........I bought from www.activesport.co.uk. Quite a few outlets have stock of the 31.8 versions but I had to search to find activesport for the 35mm.

Actually the bar rise looks much the same as the Nukeproof 40mm riser bars I put on my Levo. Being a 35mm bar the amount of upward bend looks smaller than if it was a 31.8.

 

[RickBullotta]

One thing you haven't mentioned is your saddle fore-and-aft position. Are you sure it is optimal for you? Get that dialed first, then get the stem sorted.

 

[Mikerb]

One thing you haven't mentioned is your saddle fore-and-aft position. Are you sure it is optimal for you? Get that dialed first, then get the stem sorted.

Me or Steve?
I spent 400 miles on the bike with various seat adjustments etc before deciding I needed to raise bar height.

 

[RickBullotta]

Me or Steve?
I spent 400 miles on the bike with various seat adjustments etc before deciding I needed to raise bar height.

Cool. I found that the saddle my Rise (after quite a few miles also) was off by about 10-15mm - side effect from the steeper seat tube angle. I didn't spend enough time matching that to my Santa Cruz setup and was way too far forward. I did eventually get it dialed. My mistake for just using the clamp position on the rails as my guide rather than dropping a plumb line. Did that and made a world of difference.

 

[steve_sordy]

I too spent time getting my saddle fore and aft position right. When I was struggling to get up a short but steep slope, I tried moving the saddle forward. I was hoping it would make a difference. It did but not enough to succeed. It compromised the rest of my ride, so I returned it to its previous position.

I am expecting a bar with a larger rise will worsen my climbing ability, but I need to respond to the problem with my neck.

 

[Mikerb]

I too spent time getting my saddle fore and aft position right. When I was struggling to get up a short but steep slope, I tried moving the saddle forward. I was hoping it would make a difference. It did but not enough to succeed. It compromised the rest of my ride, so I returned it to its previous position.

I am expecting a bar with a larger rise will worsen my climbing ability, but I need to respond to the problem with my neck.

It will probably just mean altering how you climb. If the bike has decent geometry for climbing the handlebar rise will not effect it. It only changes how much weight/pressure you need to apply to the front end and hence your riding position when you climb.
What rise do you currently have and what rise is on the new bars you intend buying?

 

[steve_sordy]

...................
What rise do you currently have and what rise is on the new bars you intend buying?

I have zero rise currently. I am in process of deciding what rise to have on the new bars, hence my interest in your post.

 

[Mikerb]

I have zero rise currently. I am in process of deciding what rise to have on the new bars, hence my interest in your post.

I thought you said you have 20mm rise on the Merida?

 

[steve_sordy]

I thought you said you have 20mm rise on the Merida?

You have obviously been paying more attention than I was!
You are correct it was the Focus that I had for 2.5 years that has zero rise, my recently bought Merida has 20mm, like I said in post #4.
(Brain fart in action).

 

[Mikerb]

I rode my local forest trails today which provide a good mix of steep techy descents, short but steep climbs, narrow between the trees singletrack , gravity runs with berms and small jumps.
The Whyte E180 was better than before in every category, even climbing, to an extend that actually surprised me.

I should stress that my starting position before I changed the rise of the bars may well differ to others so my change is not a universal recommendation for E180 owners. My starting position was that I felt the reach and original bar rise (35mm) meant I had too much weight on my hands and therefore the front end in all riding scenarios.

What I have changed for my body dimensions is to better centre my weight distribution on the bike whether seated or on the pedals. What I could instantly tell today just riding a flat access fireroad with the saddle at full pedalling height, was that I had very little pressure on my hands.

Once on the trails I could lift the front end far easier, whether on level singletrack or on a gravity run. The E180 has always been secure and capable downhill but I felt in even more control. When you think about it, you have 180mm of top level suspension to deal with compressions etc, but if you are heavier on the front end you can easilly get the forks diving most of that 180mm!! On very familiar gravity runs that usually result in near max fork compression, this time I never used more than 70%.
At 770mm wide the bars certainly give faster steering without any loss of control but apart from that the bike felt more manoeuvrable as well and I put that down to better weight distribution on the bike. I can weight the front wheel if needed or go lighter with ease which prevents pushing the tyre too hard especially in berms etc.

On small jumps, especially those on downhill runs, it is easier to pull the front wheel up. Here I think the higher rise bar means that when the bike is inclined downhill the pivot point of the bike is higher and it is therefore easier to overcome the front end weight.

The aspect that really surprised me the most was climbing. I fully expected to have to deal with front looping out and therefore to be more over the front of the bike and off the saddle. That is indeed how I did the first couple of climbs and I cleaned them with no trouble. After that I tried climbing whilst perched on the front of the saddle (at about half height).........and there was still no tendency for the front end to loop out!!

In many respects the bike now feels more similar to my Levo and I can ride both bikes with virtually the same body positions etc. The Whyte still varies from the Levo in terms of greater travel, longer wheelbase and lower BB which all help with rough gravity descents but the change to higher rise bars has in my case enhanced its general trail riding capabilities and comfort.

I will stop eulgising now!!

 

[slippery pete]

Awesome result. You definitely appear to have taken a step in the right direction.

With your new position there will be suspension changes I'm sure. Sometimes a bit of time with a setup exposes shortcomings that aren't obvious immediately. Maybe you'll have hit the sweet spot. With the general change you've made, I'd expect the compromise to show up in front end grip on flatter turns. It may be you've got a great compromise already but keep an eye out for it.

 

[Mikerb]

Awesome result. You definitely appear to have taken a step in the right direction.

With your new position there will be suspension changes I'm sure. Sometimes a bit of time with a setup exposes shortcomings that aren't obvious immediately. Maybe you'll have hit the sweet spot. With the general change you've made, I'd expect the compromise to show up in front end grip on flatter turns. It may be you've got a great compromise already but keep an eye out for it.

OK ta......I did not notice any problem with fast flat turns today but then I usually ride both in the same way...leaning the bike over rather than me leaning over. I run Assegais and they seem to grip turns far better that way.

 

[Futant]

OK.....the amount of rise in the bars is measured from where is attaches to the stem to the part of the bars where the diameter reduces to the same as the bar ends ( each measure point being the centre of the diameter). For the amount of rise provided by the bars to be at its maximum it must be vertical...ie perpendicular to the ground. As you say the bars also have 2 other profile changes albeit they vary a little from brand to brand. Firstly there is upsweep. This is the amount the bars bend slightly upwards from the outer measureing point of the rise to the bar ends. This is usually c 5 or 6 degrees. If you roll the bars from the perpendicular position towards you, you reduce both rise and upsweep and also slightly reduce reach.
The bars have a 3rd profile change which is the backsweep. This is usually about 9 degrees and it is how much the bars bend toward the rider measured again from the outer measurement point of the rise to the bar ends. Both upsweep and backsweep are designed to provide the optimum position for the wrist which you should aim to have straight and inline with your forearm, and with slightly bent elbows ( more or less as preferred riding style for different riders).
Backsweep also works in conjunction with the width of the bars. In general the wider the bars the more backsweep is required to keep the wrists at a comfortable and strong angle. In practise most brands use the same backsweep with a bar width of 780 or 800 so many cut bar width to suit their body shape.

This is a well known concept and is important to understand. I’ll add that as you rotate the bars while all of the design feature tend to change so does your suspension performance. It is a a part of suspension setup 101 in the motocross world for sure. If the bars are not inline with the forks then this causes binding of the down tubes as they travel through the stroke. This will make for a harsher fork. I have seen on occasion where someone can’t get their forks to feel right no matter what they do and if you look at the bars they off center with the Down tubes.

 

[OldBean]

This post has come at the right time for me as I am having very uncomfortable neck problems(as per Steve S)when riding my R&M Delight Mountain.
I used a 30mm stem and 50mm riser bars on my Focus which sorted me out .
For wiring reasons I cant use a riser stem so have to go for higher rise bars ... the Deity 50mm rise might be suitable but would like to try before buying ....anybody found some sort of temporary riser to test various heights?

 

[1oldfart]

I would suggest your next bike might be better in medium.
Like you my torso should not be on a bike that fits my long legs.
Each year i got used to a shorter bar. It improves my position and my comfort.
You might slide in a bit your brakes and test. Only cut when you are ok.
For me it is about finding 4 ways to make small gains and get a great bike for me.

 

[Mikerb]

This is a well known concept and is important to understand. I’ll add that as you rotate the bars while all of the design feature tend to change so does your suspension performance. It is a a part of suspension setup 101 in the motocross world for sure. If the bars are not inline with the forks then this causes binding of the down tubes as they travel through the stroke. This will make for a harsher fork. I have seen on occasion where someone can’t get their forks to feel right no matter what they do and if you look at the bars they off center with the Down tubes.

I know nothing a bout MX but as far as MTB is concerned I can see no rationale for aligning the rise with the fork /headset angle. Pressure on the fork is not applied by the bars it comes from the ground and is a vertical force yet the forks are canted at whatever head angle the bike has...typically 63 to 65 degrees. . The forks have have offset , the stem length/rise varies bike to bike.........none of them align with the angle of the forks to a vertical upward force from the ground.

 

[Mikerb]

I would suggest your next bike might be better in medium.
Like you my torso should not be on a bike that fits my long legs.
Each year i got used to a shorter bar. It improves my position and my comfort.
You might slide in a bit your brakes and test. Only cut when you are ok.
For me it is about finding 4 ways to make small gains and get a great bike for me.

My 35mm bars started at 810. I reduced them to 780 which was better. My new bars are cut to 770 which feels like the sweet spot fo rme on that bike. On y Levo I have the bars to 760.
I have ridden my mates medium Levo.........no....not right for me. Much too small.