Brose "Significantly" extends Mag S life span .....

Zimmerframe

MUPPET
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Jun 12, 2019
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A press release from Brose :


"
Press release

Brose significantly extends the lifespan of the S Mag


Berlin (January 11, 2024). Brose E-Bike is consistently continuing its quality offensive. The Berlin-based system provider has gradually improved its magnesium drives around the renowned Drive S Mag. The specific further developments have significantly extended the lifespan in particular – but the benefits for customers and end users are even more extensive.

The central innovation in Brose Drive S Mag and Co. is the optimization of the drive belt and transmission, which results in a significant increase in mileage.

At the beginning of the market launch in 2018, Brose had problems with premature motor failures. However, thanks to the meticulous modernizations, this is now a thing of the past.

Lukas Zwanziger, Head of Quality at Brose E-Bike: "Initially, we were very dissatisfied with the performance of our magnesium drives, especially the S
Mag. In close cooperation with our internal and external partners, we worked intensively on the individual weak points and continuously improved the motors. The result is the "new" S Mag, which you can rely on in any situation."

Brose implemented the first major optimization package in 2021 with the aim of significantly increasing durability. Since then, further improvements have followed successively. Among other things, the company achieved a reduction
in the already quiet operating noise, even at very high mileages. The latest modification has also made the drives more resistant to water ingress. Furthermore, the completely overhauled electronics and software ensure greater reliability and an even more comfortable ride. Many components have been replaced by more modern ones, so that the electronic parts of the magnesium drives are available without restriction.

To ensure that the measures implemented achieve the desired effect, Brose subjected the magnesium drives to intensive endurance tests in the Harz. During this process, over 50,000 kilometers were covered and around one million meters of altitude were mastered. To ensure the long-term success of the revisions, S Mag and Co. undergo around 175,000 hours of testing in special endurance test rigs at the Berlin plant every year. In this way, procedures can be reliably tested and undesirable events can be identified and rectified at an early stage.

"The aim of our measures is clear: we wanted e-bike fans to be able to enjoy the natural riding experience and the impressive power of the S Mag and our other magnesium drives in a carefree and lasting way," says Zwanziger.

The success of these efforts is reflected in SRAM's decision. The renowned US component manufacturer was looking for a drive for its innovative Eagle Powertrain system with automatic shifting and found the perfect solution in the S Mag. Since the end of September 2023, the Brose motor has been the centerpiece of models from the four popular e-mountainbike manufacturers Propain, Transition, Nukeproof and Gasgas.

About Brose Drive Technology

Brose e-bike systems offer the right solution for every application – whether in city, trekking or mountain bikes. The family-owned company has transferred its decades of experience as a supplier of electric motors for the automotive industry to the bicycle. At the e-bike competence center in Berlin, more than 140 employees develop and produce drives that are used in models from over 30 manufacturers worldwide. Together with specially developed displays, battery and the Brose app, the drives form a perfectly coordinated system, enabling a particularly harmonious riding experience.

Press contact
Brose Drive Technology
Dennis Lamb
Phone: +49 30 343498 237
E-mail: [email protected] "



No idea how you tell if you have an "improved" motor. It might be like previously where there have been incremental updates and then they decide there's a milestone and make a release about it - like with the Gen3 Levo release.

@Bearing Man any thoughts ?
 

Ark

Active member
Mar 8, 2023
460
386
Newcastle Upon Tyne
To ensure that the measures implemented achieve the desired effect, Brose subjected the magnesium drives to intensive endurance tests in the Harz. During this process, over 50,000 kilometers were covered and around one million meters of altitude were mastered. To ensure the long-term success of the revisions, S Mag and Co. undergo around 175,000 hours of testing in special endurance test rigs at the Berlin plant every year. In this way, procedures can be reliably tested and undesirable events can be identified and rectified at an early stage.


so how many motors did they use over that mileage and how many failed.
reads like PR speak, people are picguring 1 drive doing 50,000 km

by testing do they mean the motors have been used by pro riders then replaced after each race and all of the milaege combined = 50k?

I thought the brose/specialised belt issues were a thing of the past already anyway?
It's shimano who needs these kind of press releases
 

Mikerb

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
May 16, 2019
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Weymouth
  • how come you rarely see a used Levo for sale that has not had a replacement motor??
  • Are all replacement motrs under warranty brand new....with all the revisions??
  • Is the motor test bed just continuous run in a nice a dry, average temperature, industrial unit?

Is it not time all the motor manufacturers warranteed their products for longer than 2 years....or maybe a specific maxx mileage rather than time?

  • Brose especially has a bigger mountain to climb than for example Bosch and marketing speak is not going to convince many prospective buyers in the absence of something concrete to back up their claims.....such as better warranty!!
 

irie

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May 2, 2022
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What a load of PR speak.
thud.gif
 

Streddaz

Active member
Jul 7, 2022
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429
Tasmania
Seems that SRAM have jumped in at the right time with their own branded Brose motor. Specialized spent all the warrantee cash getting it sorted with Brose and SRAM walk on in when it's all sorted.
 

irie

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May 2, 2022
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Chichester, W.Sussex, UK
Seems that SRAM have jumped in at the right time with their own branded Brose motor. Specialized spent all the warrantee cash getting it sorted with Brose and SRAM walk on in when it's all sorted.
How do you know that "It's all sorted"? Oh yes, the PR bullshit says so ...
 

Streddaz

Active member
Jul 7, 2022
302
429
Tasmania
How do you know that "It's all sorted"? Oh yes, the PR bullshit says so ...
Just going on the reports from the owners of the later model Levos. The motor failure (and that's mainly the belt issue) seems to be nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago.
 

kla456

Member
Mar 8, 2020
84
19
Scotland
Seems that SRAM have jumped in at the right time with their own branded Brose motor. Specialized spent all the warrantee cash getting it sorted with Brose and SRAM walk on in when it's all sorted.
Competition, competition, competition. Only good will come from this.
 

RebornRider

Well-known member
May 31, 2019
638
661
NorCal USA
I expect to see this press release in video form from embn soon (if it hasn't already been YouTubed).

FWIW, my Mag S was rebuilt by Bearing Man's USA affiliate. The rebuilt motor is noticeably quieter than OEM Brose #1 (lasted 1 year) and Brose OEM #2 (lasted about 3 years).
 

irie

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
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May 2, 2022
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Just going on the reports from the owners of the later model Levos. The motor failure (and that's mainly the belt issue) seems to be nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago.
A reduction in (publicly) reported motor failures can also be a result of faster replacement of failed motors.

Brose said:
Worldwide, every second new vehicle is equipped with at least one Brose product.

Perhaps global vehicle production problems are concentrating Brose minds on other potential growth markets ...
 

Binhill1

🍊 Tango Man 🍊
Mar 7, 2019
3,264
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Scotland
Reckon these new motors will last for years if you don't use them . I wonder how much 🤔 of the non_ improved motors there are waiting to be given out as warranty replacements ,we will never know. My fourth has about 1700 miles now so can't be long afore it goes tits up. How do you tell the manufacture date again I forget.
 

steve_sordy

Wedding Crasher
Nov 5, 2018
9,017
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Lincolnshire, UK
So sub-standard motors that were unfit for the required duty were launched and all the Speccy riders were involuntary beta testers. It would serve Specialized right if some smart-arse lawyer cobbled together a class action lawsuit against them and sued for many millions.
 

Binhill1

🍊 Tango Man 🍊
Mar 7, 2019
3,264
5,052
Scotland
So sub-standard motors that were unfit for the required duty were launched and all the Speccy riders were involuntary beta testers. It would serve Specialized right if some smart-arse lawyer cobbled together a class action lawsuit against them and sued for many millions.
Yes and we all get our money back or a new bike . If I hadn't got the support I've had from Berkshire cycles I doubt I would still have my Levo.
 

steve_sordy

Wedding Crasher
Nov 5, 2018
9,017
9,454
Lincolnshire, UK
Yes and we all get our money back or a new bike . If I hadn't got the support I've had from Berkshire cycles I doubt I would still have my Levo.
It is customer service like that that supports the view that Speccy were deliberately beta testing. They wanted the broken motors back so that they could log the faults and failure modes in order to design a better one. Think how many ebikes they sold while they were doing this! They get in early, make a load of money, and get a great reputation for customer service (seemingly brushing aside a poor reputation for reliability). I still cannot believe that riders would happily set off for a long ride into the wilderness on their third motor in 12 months. :unsure:
 

Binhill1

🍊 Tango Man 🍊
Mar 7, 2019
3,264
5,052
Scotland
It is customer service like that that supports the view that Speccy were deliberately beta testing. They wanted the broken motors back so that they could log the faults and failure modes in order to design a better one. Think how many ebikes they sold while they were doing this! They get in early, make a load of money, and get a great reputation for customer service (seemingly brushing aside a poor reputation for reliability). I still cannot believe that riders would happily set off for a long ride into the wilderness on their third motor in 12 months. :unsure:
Makes you wonder we will never know the half of it . But yes I have been lucky I had only one motor fail while out and it was a easy 7 mile ride home . Some of the places I end up perish the thought of walking out. Someone on here said he was on his 12th motor , no way i would go five miles from the house if that was in the back of my mind . Always in the back of my mind is it just the type of riding I am doing. I have two lads I know have had no problems with their trek bikes in 5 years use but they would not be doing the kind of stuff I do and not so much in the wet .
 

Jase

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Apr 22, 2022
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Until they have been product tested in the mud and wet of UK winters (not just winter). I smell a herd of Buffalo passing by. Still fingers crossed that when the motor in my Levo goes bang it gets replaced with one of the new super motors 🤞
 

Rando_12345

Active member
Nov 16, 2022
350
472
France
Until they have been product tested in the mud and wet of UK winters (not just winter). I smell a herd of Buffalo passing by. Still fingers crossed that when the motor in my Levo goes bang it gets replaced with one of the new super motors 🤞
I live in the south of France, we never ride in the rain and it is rarely wet. Yet I still know a bunch of riders going through 2-3 Brose motors a year.
 

RebornRider

Well-known member
May 31, 2019
638
661
NorCal USA
I live in the south of France, we never ride in the rain and it is rarely wet. Yet I still know a bunch of riders going through 2-3 Brose motors a year.
Same for me in a part of California where there is no rain for 8 months. Yet my second Brose died due to crankshaft corrosion that really screwed up sprag clutch operation. I have to conclude that it was caused by my bike washing technique. I will NEVER AGAIN direct a flow of water at the base of the crank arms!
 

Mikerb

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
May 16, 2019
6,568
5,060
Weymouth
I think we all know the potential weaknesses of EMTB motors. It is rarely anything to do with the electric motor but rather the internal transmission.
1 Sprag /one way bearings fail due to dirt and water ingress
2. torque sensors fail probably for the same reason
3. main crank bearings seize due to the same reason
4. PCBs short circuit.............same reason.

So all of the above are really due to poor sealing of the motor transmission components from water and dust ingress.

The Brose motor is (I think) alone in using a belt rather than gear transfer and that belt has added another potential failure point either because it snaps, stretches, or partially disintegrates. The most likely causes being pedal/crank shock combined with the belt material breaking down over time. Brose did "upgrade" the belt I believe with a wider belt of different material but as per every car that uses cam belts etc, they have a limited lifespan and need regular checks at the very least.

One reason I am interested in MGUs is that the unit is oil filled so has to be well sealed........and serviced annually by doing an oil change. I dont know what the implications are for the total motor/gearbox unit in terms of sealing however. It would be interessting to know! The only reason for poor sealing on our motors is that greater sealing equals increased friction....apparently.............or is it just poor engineering considered the environment in which those motors have to operate!
 

Streddaz

Active member
Jul 7, 2022
302
429
Tasmania
I think we all know the potential weaknesses of EMTB motors. It is rarely anything to do with the electric motor but rather the internal transmission.
1 Sprag /one way bearings fail due to dirt and water ingress
2. torque sensors fail probably for the same reason
3. main crank bearings seize due to the same reason
4. PCBs short circuit.............same reason.

So all of the above are really due to poor sealing of the motor transmission components from water and dust ingress.

The Brose motor is (I think) alone in using a belt rather than gear transfer and that belt has added another potential failure point either because it snaps, stretches, or partially disintegrates. The most likely causes being pedal/crank shock combined with the belt material breaking down over time. Brose did "upgrade" the belt I believe with a wider belt of different material but as per every car that uses cam belts etc, they have a limited lifespan and need regular checks at the very least.

One reason I am interested in MGUs is that the unit is oil filled so has to be well sealed........and serviced annually by doing an oil change. I dont know what the implications are for the total motor/gearbox unit in terms of sealing however. It would be interessting to know! The only reason for poor sealing on our motors is that greater sealing equals increased friction....apparently.............or is it just poor engineering considered the environment in which those motors have to operate!
It is difficult to seal a shaft and have low frictional losses. Not an issue for motorcycles and automotive applications as the power losses are easily overcome by the large power outputs. To make a motor unit that can be peddled unassisted and feel a lot like a normal bike is a difficult engineering task. Just remember how may bottom brackets you go through in a lifetime of a normal MTB if ridden in very wet and muddy conditions. They also could be made to seal better but that comes at a cost of friction.
I'm also interested to see how the Pinion MGU lasts as the non-motorised version seems pretty bullet proof. Having oil on the other side of a seal does help with sealing.
I also doubt that Specialized intentionally let its customers be the Guinea pigs for the Brose motor as it would have cost either Specialized, Brose or both a fortune to just continually replace motors like they have. Almost all products that go to market would have a reasonable amount of risk in releasing it, due to the financial pressure of being first to market. I have worked in manufacturing for 30+ years, and you never get enough time to test and iron out all the bugs before pushing that product out to the public. Sometimes the risk you take works out and sometimes it doesn't, and in case of the Brose motor, it didn't.
I would like think that with SRAM taking on the Brose motor, they must have some faith in where it is now.
 

Levo Laland

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2019
273
236
Surrey UK
Something is going to be announced soon, Brose won awards late last year for recycling old e-bike motors. I’ve also read that they will be selling re-manufactured motors with 2 year warranty for a significant discount over the current new prices. EMBN show also said to watch out for a big announcement coming soon regarding Brose and UK customers.

Steve Jones said he guarantees that there will be changes in the UK relating to the serving of Brose motors in the coming months.
 
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