Breakout discussion - Lay it down

[Pauliemon]

I hear that. I started on a RD350 punched out. That bike was fast! It was a ticket collector. So I turned to the chopper world. Turns out cops like chopped Harleys less then fast bikes. After that dual sport. Well 1970s dual sport. Honda 305 Scrambler, nice bike, not very dual. It was a dirt turd. Soooo,... Hodaka 90, not enough power. Hodaka 100, ditto. Hodaka 125, better, kind of. Maico 250, now we're getting somewhere. After that mainly Bultacos and Maicos. I switched to dirt because it was scary on the road. Between cops and ahole drivers my days were numbered. Finally I had to lay a bike down because a car turned in front of me. The guy had alcohol on his breath but the cop let him slide. He said he'd take care of the damages and low and behold he did.

 

[steve_sordy]

I hear that. I started on a RD350 punched out. That bike was fast! It was a ticket collector. So I turned to the chopper world. Turns out cops like chopped Harleys less then fast bikes. After that dual sport. Well 1970s dual sport. Honda 305 Scrambler, nice bike, not very dual. It was a dirt turd. Soooo,... Hodaka 90, not enough power. Hodaka 100, ditto. Hodaka 125, better, kind of. Maico 250, now we're getting somewhere. After that mainly Bultacos and Maicos. I switched to dirt because it was scary on the road. Between cops and ahole drivers my days were numbered. Finally I had to lay a bike down because a car turned in front of me. The guy had alcohol on his breath but the cop let him slide. He said he'd take care of the damages and low and behold he did.

Most of that went right over my head (not a biker you see). But I definitely get the drift!

 

[MountainBoy]

I hear that. I started on a RD350 punched out. That bike was fast! It was a ticket collector. So I turned to the chopper world. Turns out cops like chopped Harleys less then fast bikes. After that dual sport. Well 1970s dual sport. Honda 305 Scrambler, nice bike, not very dual. It was a dirt turd. Soooo,... Hodaka 90, not enough power. Hodaka 100, ditto. Hodaka 125, better, kind of. Maico 250, now we're getting somewhere. After that mainly Bultacos and Maicos. I switched to dirt because it was scary on the road. Between cops and ahole drivers my days were numbered. Finally I had to lay a bike down because a car turned in front of me. The guy had alcohol on his breath but the cop let him slide. He said he'd take care of the damages and low and behold he did.

The phrase "I had to lay 'er down" because someone turned in front of me, is the most wrong-headed notion I have ever heard (and I've heard it a lot), in my nearly 40 years of riding fast bikes. There is never a good reason to lay your bike down in such situations because keeping the rubber on the road lets you scrub off more speed before impact than putting the metal/plastic down. Additionally, it is many times better to be thrown over the car than to slide under it. Metal and plastic on asphalt simply don't offer much friction with which to slow you down. The coefficient of friction of two tires on the road is much higher.

Whenever I have heard the expression, "I had to lay her down", I can assume I'm talking to someone who probably used to much brake in the heat of the moment (too much rear brake is, by far, the most common). Keeping it upright until impact (or keeping it upright and avoiding impact) provides the highest chances for the lowest injury.

Now I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong so if you "lay 'er down" and slide clean under a semi-tractor trailer in motion, I'll congratulate you on a nice save.

 

[Pauliemon]

The phrase "I had to lay 'er down" because someone turned in front of me, is the most wrong-headed notion I have ever heard (and I've heard it a lot), in my nearly 40 years of riding fast bikes. There is never a good reason to lay your bike down in such situations because keeping the rubber on the road lets you scrub off more speed before impact than putting the metal/plastic down. Additionally, it is many times better to be thrown over the car than to slide under it. Metal and plastic on asphalt simply don't offer much friction with which to slow you down. The coefficient of friction of two tires on the road is much higher.

Whenever I have heard the expression, "I had to lay her down", I can assume I'm talking to someone who probably used to much brake in the heat of the moment (too much rear brake is, by far, the most common). Keeping it upright until impact (or keeping it upright and avoiding impact) provides the highest chances for the lowest injury.

Now I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong so if you "lay 'er down" and slide clean under a semi-tractor trailer in motion, I'll congratulate you on a nice save.

Yep slid right under the right corner. Tried to turn and the bike let go. Sorry, no brake.

 

[Binhill1]

Yep slide right under the right corner. Tried to turn and the bike let go. Sorry, no brake.

Yes unless it's happened to you you don't understand . Saying that an instructor showed me opposite steering for last minute escapes. He crashed and died two years ago swerving to avoid my daughter in laws car went right off the road.

 

[MountainBoy]

Yes unless it's happened to you you don't understand . Saying that an instructor showed me opposite steering for last minute escapes. He crashed and died two years ago swerving to avoid my daughter in laws car went right off the road.

No, you don't understand. My point is not that motorcyclists don't crash, it's how they describe the crash that is inaccurate. People do lay down motorcycles, but it's not accurate to say they "had to". Yet this is a common refrain from motorcyclists who have laid down their bikes. I've laid down streetbikes three times, none were deliberate. But I didn't say that I "had to", I said I messed up.

 

[irie]

If you're going towards a solid object you can't avoid then laying the bike down is a good strategy because in general the bike will travel over the ground faster than you will so you'll follow the behind the bike towards the solid object. Usually much better than the bike following behind you into the solid object - it's a survival strategy. Rode bikes for 58 years including racing bikes on closed circuits for 10 years btw. Carry on.

 

[philmedomsley]

I presume when you lay down the bike you have lost control and fallen off.

 

[irie]

I presume when you lay down the bike you have lost control and fallen off.

No, lay down before impact while still in control.

 

[MountainBoy]

No, lay down before impact while still in control.

No, you cannot control direction or speed after laying down the bike. That means you are no longer in control. Control is the ability to change speed and direction. There is very little braking force with metal on pavement and no steering ability without the wheels in contact with the road. The rubber of two motorcycle tires is capable of far more friction than any motorcycle clothing. Leather slides a long way on pavement and synthetic textiles offer even less friction to slow you down. So you have no real control of your trajectory or speed. When you say you are still in control when laying down a street bike at speed it makes you sound like you are some kind of "magic crasher". It's better to scrub off as much speed before impact using the grippy rubber of your tires with the bike upright. That requires good braking skills to keep it upright under maximum braking.

 

[irie]

No, you cannot control direction or speed after laying down the bike. That means you are no longer in control. Control is the ability to change speed and direction. There is very little braking force with metal on pavement and no steering ability without the wheels in contact with the road. The rubber of two motorcycle tires is capable of far more friction than any motorcycle clothing. Leather slides a long way on pavement and synthetic textiles offer even less friction to slow you down. So you have no real control of your trajectory or speed. When you say you are still in control when laying down a street bike at speed it makes you sound like you are some kind of "magic crasher". It's better to scrub off as much speed before impact using the grippy rubber of your tires with the bike upright. That requires good braking skills to keep it upright under maximum braking.

I only raced for 10 years on closed circuits such as Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Cadwell etc. Got off my bike a few times and lived while seeing over 2% of my class killed or turned into basket cases while their bikes followed them into the Armco, trees, etc. Got off it on the road too to avoid a head on, so what do I know eh?

 

[MountainBoy]

I only raced for 10 years on closed circuits such as Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Cadwell etc. Got off my bike a few times and lived while seeing over 2% of my class killed or turned into basket cases while their bikes followed them into the Armco, trees, etc. Got off it on the road too to avoid a head on, so what do I know eh?

Use your head! You can't actively "avoid a head-on" without the rubber on the road, that's the only way you can change direction. A crashing motorcyclist (or mountain biker for that matter) travels in a straight line unless a force is applied in a different direction. It's literally Newton's first law of motion. Your tires can help change your trajectory very quickly if you instinctively counter-steer and maintain control of your bike.

Talking about crashes on road racecourses is really not very relevant to someone who thought they "had to lay her down" on the street because typically a crash while racing is from loss of control of the motorcycle to begin with. The topic at hand is whether a motorcyclist who is already in control of their machine should purposefully give up that control and "lay her down". It's my observation over 5 decades of riding that situations in which you can improve the outcome of the crash by "laying her down" are quite rare compared to situations in which you would be better served by using the traction of the tires to change your trajectory more favorably, and/or decelerate as rapidly as possible in the seconds before impact. It takes time to go from riding 100% in control to laying a motorcycle down and that time is better spent decelerating or maneuvering, you don't slow down very quickly while sliding across pavement and you can't change your direction either.

My other observation is that motorcyclists would rather claim they "had to lay her down" than admit that they freaked out and lost control of their machine. Because everything turned out OK, they want to take credit for the outcome even though they were simply unskilled and got lucky. Because once layed down you are going to travel in a straight line, for the most part, until you either hit something or eventually come to a stop from the friction of your body sliding on the ground. While in control of your motorcycle you still have a chance to actively avoid the accident to begin with or reduce the severity of the impact by reducing speed as much as possible.

 

[irie]

Use your head! You can't actively "avoid a head-on" without the rubber on the road, that's the only way you can change direction. A crashing motorcyclist (or mountain biker for that matter) travels in a straight line unless a force is applied in a different direction. It's literally Newton's first law of motion. Your tires can help change your trajectory very quickly if you instinctively counter-steer and maintain control of your bike.

Talking about crashes on road racecourses is really not very relevant to someone who thought they "had to lay her down" on the street because typically a crash while racing is from loss of control of the motorcycle to begin with. The topic at hand is whether a motorcyclist who is already in control of their machine should purposefully give up that control and "lay her down". It's my observation over 5 decades of riding that situations in which you can improve the outcome of the crash by "laying her down" are quite rare compared to situations in which you would be better served by using the traction of the tires to change your trajectory more favorably, and/or decelerate as rapidly as possible in the seconds before impact. It takes time to go from riding 100% in control to laying a motorcycle down and that time is better spent decelerating or maneuvering, you don't slow down very quickly while sliding across pavement and you can't change your direction either.

My other observation is that motorcyclists would rather claim they "had to lay her down" than admit that they freaked out and lost control of their machine. Because everything turned out OK, they want to take credit for the outcome even though they were simply unskilled and got lucky. Because once layed down you are going to travel in a straight line, for the most part, until you either hit something or eventually come to a stop from the friction of your body sliding on the ground. While in control of your motorcycle you still have a chance to actively avoid the accident to begin with or reduce the severity of the impact by reducing speed as much as possible.

Evidently you know best so in future I'll "use my head". Or on second thoughts, maybe not!

 

[Binhill1]

Evidently you know best so in future I'll "use my head". Or on second thoughts, maybe not!

Life would soo good if you got a twenty second warning that it was all about to go wrong

 

[MountainBoy]

Life would soo good if you got a twenty second warning that it was all about to go wrong

A motorcycle with good tires and a skilled rider can go from 60 mph all the way to zero in about 3 seconds. Even if you only have 2 seconds of hard braking, it may slow you down enough to avoid injury. That's why purposefully laying your bike down is almost always the wrong thing to do.

 

[irie]

A motorcycle with good tires and a skilled rider can go from 60 mph all the way to zero in about 3 seconds. Even if you only have 2 seconds of hard breaking, it may slow you down enough to avoid injury. That's why purposefully laying your bike down is almost always the wrong thing to do.

Well I've lived to tell the tale where others haven't.

Oh, and it's braking, not breaking.

hth

 

[Binhill1]

A motorcycle with good tires and a skilled rider can go from 60 mph all the way to zero in about 3 seconds. Even if you only have 2 seconds of hard breaking, it may slow you down enough to avoid injury. That's why purposefully laying your bike down is almost always the wrong thing to do.

Never had to lay a bike down but my motorbike days I was never a fast rider . Crashed a couple of times at motocross.

 

[levity]

This thread has drifted off the rails.

I realize that ebikes have motors,, but discussion about what are commonly referred to as “motorcycles” probably belongs in another thread if not another forum. Interesting stuff, but . . .

 

[MountainBoy]

This thread has drifted off the rails.

I realize that ebikes have motors,, but discussion about what are commonly referred to as “motorcycles” probably belongs in another thread if not another forum. Interesting stuff, but . . .

I get that, and thank-you! I just felt the idea of laying your bike down in response to an imminent accident is so dangerous and foolish that I didn't want some beginning rider to read that and think it was a viable, safe or reasonable strategy. This strategy is never taught to street riders in safe riding classes and there's a reason for that. It needs to stop being spread around because it's dangerously misleading to those who don't already know better.

 

[irie]

I get that, and thank-you! I just felt the idea of laying your bike down in response to an imminent accident is so dangerous and foolish that I didn't want some beginning rider to read that and think it was a viable, safe or reasonable strategy. This strategy is never taught to street riders in safe riding classes and there's a reason for that. It needs to stop being spread around because it's dangerously misleading to those who don't already know better.

Since you believe that the rules you have been taught are immutable and therefore to be applied without exception then there is obviously nothing to discuss.