brakes: Saints vs XT M8120 vs Zee (all 4 piston)

[rzr]

enough is enough I have to get rid off Srams from my bikes
(I have SLX M7100/XT m8000 on my analog bike, and i'm happy with shimanos for last 10 years)

But, the questions is... which Shimanos... ?
Does anyone have comparison between new 4 piston XTs and Saints (power) ?
and where are Zees ?

 

[Alexbn921]

All current gen Shimano use the same pistons in the calipers. The saints have a stiffer caliper that weighs more. It handles more heat and flexes less.

Leverage ratio of SLX, XT, XTR are all the same.

Saint uses a slightly more aggressive leverage ratio that provides more clamping with the same lever force. This is a very small difference.

The best of the best is XTR levers with saint calipers. You can use titanium brake retaining pins and Trickstuff pads to save 20g per caliper. You will be close to full XTR weight with almost saint power.

 

[irie]

enough is enough I have to get rid off Srams from my bikes
(I have SLX M7100/XT m8000 on my analog bike, and i'm happy with shimanos for last 10 years)

But, the questions is... which Shimanos... ?
Does anyone have comparison between new 4 piston XTs and Saints (power) ?
and where are Zees ?

As far as I could see (and I stand to be corrected) Shimano M9120, M8120, M7120, M6120, and MT520 calipers all have the same size (ceramic) pistons so pretty much the same performance. Saw a deal on M6120 calipers and bought them, and with my M6100 levers have superb brakes with lots of 'feel' especially with Swissstop Catalyst Pro 220mm rotors front and rear.

Edit: as an ex-motorcyclist use quite a lot of front brake together with rear brake (depending on conditions of course).

 

[Robstyle]

What @Alexbn921 said pretty much.

My advice if you're going shimano is just slap some XT's in there and call it a day. Easy to find, easy to get parts for, easiest to bleed.

 

[jimbob]

As far as I could see (and I stand to be corrected) Shimano M9120, M8120, M7120, M6120, and MT520 calipers all have the same size (ceramic) pistons so pretty much the same performance. Saw a deal on M6120 calipers and bought them, and with my M6100 levers have superb brakes with lots of 'feel' especially with Swissstop Catalyst Pro 220mm rotors front and rear.

Edit: as an ex-motorcyclist use quite a lot of front brake together with rear brake (depending on conditions of course).

If they're all the same braking force, what's the difference between the calipers? Just weight?

 

[Robstyle]

There's significantly more material on a saint and the banjo is longer to help with heat.
Here's a terrible picture vvv

 

[irie]

If they're all the same braking force, what's the difference between the calipers? Just weight?

Weight difference just a few grams, can't see much performance difference (if any) with same BH90 hose. Which is why I put my money into quality larger 220mm rotors which provide a significant measurable improvement in both braking performance and heat dissipation.

 

[Dax]

If they're all the same braking force, what's the difference between the calipers? Just weight?

Saints are an older calliper design, very effective (when these work) but can be a bit on/off/grabby.

Even for a fairly chunky rider, saints are probably overkill for the uk.

 

[Jurassic]

I've had two bikes with XTs and one with Saints and would say the difference in performance and feel is negligible if they're working properly. They're both very good. My caveat would be that the most recent XTs (on my Reign E+1) have never been consistent despite multiple pad changes and countless bleeds and I've ended up swapping the calipers for Magura MT5s and creating the hybrid Shigura set up that you may have heard about (phenomenal performance so far). If you get a good pair of XTs though I'm sure you'll be happy and to be fair my issues were only with one of the two brakes on my Reign (the rear performed as expected but my OCD forced me to change it to Magura to match the front).

 

[Dax]

I've had two bikes with XTs and one with Saints and would say the difference in performance and feel is negligible if they're working properly. They're both very good. My caveat would be that the most recent XTs (on my Reign E+1) have never been consistent despite multiple pad changes and countless bleeds and I've ended up swapping the calipers for Magura MT5s and creating the hybrid Shigura set up that you may have heard about (phenomenal performance so far). If you get a good pair of XTs though I'm sure you'll be happy and to be fair my issues were only with one of the two brakes on my Reign (the rear performed as expected but my OCD forced me to change it to Magura to match the front).

Was that with the current XTs or the previous generation? The previous ones had a reputation for wandering bite point, but apparently it’s a lot more consistent now

 

[Jurassic]

Was that with the current XTs or the previous generation? The previous ones had a reputation for wandering bite point, but apparently it’s a lot more consistent now

Ironically the only ones that I've had problems with are the latest ones. The XTs on my 2020 Orbea Rallon have been faultless. The front brake on my Giant (2022 XT) suffered all the issues (wandering bite point and micro leaking caliper contaminating pads)! Until I got the Giant I'd been a total Shimano brake fanboi. The Saint brakes on my fat bike have also been flawless. All I've done is swap pads when required, I've not even had to bleed them since installation.

 

[lona79]

Hi guys!
What do you think about Shimano SLX?

 

[Jurassic]

Hi guys!
What do you think about Shimano SLX?

I've no personal experience with SLX but I've only heard good things about them. I think they're supposed to be just as good as XT but a bit cheaper to buy. They might be a fraction heavier and less blingy and do without the bite point adjustment (that makes hardly a difference anyway) but I think the performance is pretty much identical.
I'm sure somebody will be along who has actually used them to give a first hand account.

 

[rzr]

Hi guys!
What do you think about Shimano SLX?

I have SLX M7000/7100 on my other bike, very good, basically the same as XT

 

[MH80]

Hi guys!
What do you think about Shimano SLX?

Same as XT. Only 34g difference, it doesnt have the dimples on the lever blades that the XT has. M6120 has basically the same power as M8120/7120 but no freestroke adjust on the lever.

Im replacing the sram brakes on my Tubor Levo for M6120.

 

[Alexbn921]

Mountain Bike Brake Force Visualisation

Compare the leverage ratio of mountain bike brakes

brakes.ddzyne.nl

 

[John Beedham]

front XT8120 ... brand new , rear XTm785 .... 10 years old .... 10K kms easy ... they work beautifully together out in the hills and peaks

 

[JP-NZ]

My last Enduro bike had Zee's, My Rail has XT M8120's and my DH bike has Saints

Saints = All the power in the world, expensive!, Grabby (which I like)
XT 4 pot M8120 = Good power & Modulation, still quite expensive
Zee's = Best bang for buck along with M7100 SLX 4 pots, great power (a level down from the 2 above) and the price is good! Can be hard to find nowdays as I thought Shimano was phasing them out? Uses the same pads as Saints

 

[mtnbikerva1]

What is it about the SRAM brakes that you do not like? What model exactly do you have?
The code RSC will give you all the stopping power you could want, and in all weather. You can find a new set at a very inexpensive price right now. And you can find brake pads and MOTUL RBF 600(or any quality real brake fluid) for them anywhere also.
Stop and look at FACTS: Real brake fluid has been Proven all over the world! We know what it is, unlike the faux Brake fluid. DOT/depart of transportation fluid, is and has been used in: motorcycles, scooters , electric motorcycle, smaller aircraft, trucks, cars, ATVs, UTVS, ETC, For decades and super safe and easy to work with!
Have you ever changed the brake fluid in your vehicle?
DOT brake fluid R&R (remove and replac/change) Some companies may suggest as few as 20,000 miles while some will suggest that the vehicle may travel up to 150,000 miles before changing the brake fluid.
Do not listen to all the lies about real brake fluid, by brainwashed people.
The faux brake fluid and brakes can work well in certain conditions and quality construction also. But they do NOT meet the strict standards of DOT/real brake fluid!
Brake lever shape, feel and design may be a personal taste, choice etc. and part of the reason to choose a particular brake also.
What size rotor are you using? Going up in rotor size is always great.
Pads make a difference also.

 

[rzr]

stop this BS ...
I switched to Saint (and I have Zee on the other bike, and SLX/XT on previous bikes) and I'm SUPER happy.
I had Sram G2 RE, Code R, RSC on bikes that I bought - far from Shimano performance.
rotor sizes the same, also tested with few different pads.
Shimano brakes FTW.

 

[head]

The code RSC will give you all the stopping power you could want, and in all weather.

It depends.

I'm OK with my Code brakes most of the time. Even when I'm in Saalbach, on most of the trails, the brakes are OK. But I haven't managed to ride the X-Line without a break on Code brakes. In the bottom part, I can barely brake and sometimes I need to use two fingers. When I had Saint brakes, I could ride the X-Line without a stop with no problem. I have 220/200 mm rotors. With Saints I had "only" 200mm rotors.

Edit: I only have Code R and Code RS brakes (on two different bikes), but I doubt that RSC would perform better.

 

[JP-NZ]

What is it about the SRAM brakes that you do not like? What model exactly do you have?
The code RSC will give you all the stopping power you could want, and in all weather. You can find a new set at a very inexpensive price

Ive used Code R's on my downhill bike and they are not even in the same ball park as Shimano brakes. Not enough power and gave me finger cramps after a couple of runs. Upgraded to Saints, best money I've spent.

 

[mtnbikerva1]

Ive used Code R's on my downhill bike and they are not even in the same ball park as Shimano brakes. Not enough power and gave me finger cramps after a couple of runs. Upgraded to Saints, best money I've spent.

Glad it worked out for you!
There is a difference between the R., the S and the C in the SRAM line of brakes though.
I have and had Shimano and SRAM brakes at times I’ve had problems with both, but the SRAM brakes seem to be more stable and they are more logical to me.
I now have the SRAM code, RSCS, G2, RSC‘s, and the Shimano 9120 XTR 4 piston brakes.
i’ve had SRAM old guides that pumped up a decade and a half for more ago, but I have also recently had Shimano Ultegra and GRX brakes on my travel bike had leaking and contamination problems. So has my buddy with his Shimano brakes.
Also, I Camy Record.
But hey, it’s nice we have choices.

 

[Dax]

Glad it worked out for you!
There is a difference between the R., the S and the C in the SRAM line of brakes though.

Agreed, the R is pretty tough and reliable, works well if it has a decent bleed. Code Rs are fine for uk riding, ok in the alps too as long as you don’t drag your brakes.

I wouldn’t risk running RSCs, seen a couple completely fail now. One where the bite point adjuster failed and disconnected the lever from the master cylinder, halfway down a bike park lap in the alps, the other was some kind of internal failure, nothing happened when you pulled the lever and wouldn’t take a bleed.

 

[Game 7]

I've had two bikes with XTs and one with Saints and would say the difference in performance and feel is negligible if they're working properly. They're both very good. My caveat would be that the most recent XTs (on my Reign E+1) have never been consistent despite multiple pad changes and countless bleeds and I've ended up swapping the calipers for Magura MT5s and creating the hybrid Shigura set up that you may have heard about (phenomenal performance so far). If you get a good pair of XTs though I'm sure you'll be happy and to be fair my issues were only with one of the two brakes on my Reign (the rear performed as expected but my OCD forced me to change it to Magura to match the front)

I here a lot good about the mix of XT levers and magura calipers, but I do have question. I run XT m8120 calipers and want to change for magura mt5 or mt7 calipers, do I have to change the rotors and cable also or can the shimano rotor and cabel stay?

 

[Jurassic]

I here a lot good about the mix of XT levers and magura calipers, but I do have question. I run XT m8120 calipers and want to change for magura mt5 or mt7 calipers, do I have to change the rotors and cable also or can the shimano rotor and cabel stay?

The rotors should be okay but I used the Magura hose not the Shimano one. It's really easy to do though so don't be put off thinking it'll be difficult (assuming that you're reasonably competent on the wrenches). I used MT5 calipers and hoses with M8120 calipers and the
results have been really good.

 

[Jackware]

Magura rotors are 2 mm thick with a wear limit of 1.8 mm which is the standard thickness of the Shimano rotors, so fit Magura rotors.
Use the Magura hose, rather than the Shimano, as the banjo fittings are correct for the MT calipers.
You also need to use the Magura hose ends but the Shimano olives to avoid leaks at the lever end.

 

[whitymon]

I do not like any SRAM brake, to me they are just all bad.

XT are good but not great at modulation, bite point is pretty fast - have them on 3 other bike.

I usually use the M8100 and they perform well and are pretty reliable. I found them pretty good for anything else than steep, to me this is where they just do not work for me, there is not enough modulation to play correctly with them.

Not sure Saint would solve anything, on this except more power (?)

Currently I am on the Hayes Dominion A4 on my aggressive Enduro/DH, I think one of the best brake I have ever tested, the modulation is just awesome and you can get huge power when required.

The only drawback is like Dot fluid instead of mineral oil, bleeding is also a bit cumbersome but the bite point of the brake is consistent all the time. You always know how much pressure you need to use to have the brake power you want.

Okay second drawback ... the Hayes hose are thicker than Shimano by 0.5mm (?) which if you can picture it could pose issue on your frame if it is too tight from internal routing or hole or sleeve.
NB: seems like nothing but several frame out there, like mine was dead in the water to use the sleeve, lost half a day getting them in place.

Magura are great too are pretty cool for customization, only thing is that they tend to be not as reliable over the time.

TRP is at the moment one of the most praise brake and you should also definitely look at them.