Bosch Error 504 With Speedbox 2

[Marc_250]

Hi,

New to forum and I come seeking advice!

Been running a Bosch Active Line Plus Gen 3 ebike with Speedbox 2 equipped. After 7000 enjoyable miles the drive unit completely failed (some sort of Electric error). The entire unit was replaced under warranty. Great..
Re-attached Speed Box and all was back to normal then probably 200 miles later Error 504 appeared and bike in limp mode. Have to say bike in limp mode is kinda better than bike in restricted mode!

I had to totally remove Speedbox and ride for about 90 mins for the error to go away (as described in Bosch 2020 anti tuning info)

Anyways all I can find on 504 in it's a tuning detection Error. Seemingly it was only introduced in model year 2020 drive units as can only see the error description in MY2020 bosch manuals.

So it would seem my 'old' brand new replacement Gen 3 drive unit has 2020 firmware/tuning detection built in - that's at least my guess given how little I can find on 504 on the internet?

I've had a couple of email exchanges with Speedbox who suggest I try a new one as they think they're compatible with 2020 units but it was hardly convincing.

Wonder if anyone else has seen this error with brand new drive units or any others?

Should I try another speedbox or is there proven alternatives that should avoid this?

IF this is brand new 2020 detection built in then apparently it's 3 strikes and then a visit to Bosch to get the error removed?

Any advice thankfully received?

Cheers,

Marc

 

[Tonkmen]

Hi,

New to forum and I come seeking advice!

Been running a Bosch Active Line Plus Gen 3 ebike with Speedbox 2 equipped. After 7000 enjoyable miles the drive unit completely failed (some sort of Electric error). The entire unit was replaced under warranty. Great..
Re-attached Speed Box and all was back to normal then probably 200 miles later Error 504 appeared and bike in limp mode. Have to say bike in limp mode is kinda better than bike in restricted mode!

I had to totally remove Speedbox and ride for about 90 mins for the error to go away (as described in Bosch 2020 anti tuning info)

Anyways all I can find on 504 in it's a tuning detection Error. Seemingly it was only introduced in model year 2020 drive units as can only see the error description in MY2020 bosch manuals.

So it would seem my 'old' brand new replacement Gen 3 drive unit has 2020 firmware/tuning detection built in - that's at least my guess given how little I can find on 504 on the internet?

I've had a couple of email exchanges with Speedbox who suggest I try a new one as they think they're compatible with 2020 units but it was hardly convincing.

Wonder if anyone else has seen this error with brand new drive units or any others?

Should I try another speedbox or is there proven alternatives that should avoid this?

IF this is brand new 2020 detection built in then apparently it's 3 strikes and then a visit to Bosch to get the error removed?

Any advice thankfully received?

Cheers,

Marc

I had the same problem, I contacted the tuning company and they knew of the problem and are busy solving it.

Rudolph

 

[Marc_250]

Thanks for the response, I have since purchased a Speedbox '2.0' and have been running it for 3-4 hundred miles now and thought it had solved the problem assuming my old Speed box '2' was faulty or had been improved upon however just been out on a ride a same issue has occurred error 504 and bike in limp mode. Does seem highly suggestive to me that Bosch has indeed found a way to detect this method of de-restricting and the Speedbox devices are no longer fit for purpose on Gen 3 bikes with newer firmware etc......

Any recommended alternatives to Speedbox?

 

[Marc_250]

I had the same problem, I contacted the tuning company and they knew of the problem and are busy solving it.

Rudolph

You'll have to let us know what they come back with, I've followed up an email chain with Speedbox (following their recommendation to get a new one) and I'll see what they say (if anything).

 

[Marc_250]

I've been in touch with somebody helpful at ebiketuningshop and they confirmed that MY2020 software is getting put onto Gen 3 drive units. Speedbox have washed their hands of it and declared it untunable. The contact at ebiketuning say they're working on 'Red Ped 2' which should be available next year so it would seem for the moment there isn't a solution to this.

My thinking is probably sell/px the bike for something from Shimano or Yamaha as I aint spending 3 months or however long it takes stuck at 15 mph.

 

[quick_nick]

Hi Marc,

don`t belive in the statements from Speedbox, looks like is only advertising.... my Dealer installed on my new Gen4 CX Bike the Speedbox 2 with support for 2020 Engine, now after 350 km the Engine locked into Limp-Mode and the error 504 occur. After talking to Bosch they told him also that the old Engine Gen3 is delivered from now on with MY20 Software.

I have the same idea like you, changing from Bosch to Shimano or Yamaha, as i don`t accept this kind of paternalism....

 

[Marc_250]

Yea I think speedbox jumped the gun saying it would work on 2020, probably attached it to one for a few miles saw that it worked and thought all was well but as you and I have found out take a few hundred km to be detected. Guess they'll be getting a few returned shortly!

 

[quick_nick]

i assume this will take some more research now from speedbox, instead of adding only a new sticker ...

i was naive enough to belive in there quick fix for gen4 :-(

 

[MixLoaf]

Hi all I've just had the same issue.

I'm running a bosch active on a gazelle cityzen that was originally purchased in 2017 with a badass box added not long after.

Motor was changed for the 2nd time 2 weeks ago under warranty. 150 miles in and error 504 pops up. A slow 10 miles later in limp mode with the box off and it cleared.

Has anyone put the box back on after error has cleared and if so what were the results?

Agree with the comment about level of paternalism. If they don't want to honour the warranty that's fair enough but to totally remove the option takes the mick in my opinion. I use the extra boost to lug my tools around central London all day and am rarely going over the limit anyway. For a piece of kit in this price range i expect to be able to use it as i wish.

I guess ill be looking into different manufacturers too. Best start saving!

 

[Marc_250]

Hi all I've just had the same issue.

I'm running a bosch active on a gazelle cityzen that was originally purchased in 2017 with a badass box added not long after.

Motor was changed for the 2nd time 2 weeks ago under warranty. 150 miles in and error 504 pops up. A slow 10 miles later in limp mode with the box off and it cleared.

Has anyone put the box back on after error has cleared and if so what were the results?

Yep....You get about the same unrestricted mileage (think I got more like 200-250 miles but not exactly sure) and then the same thing happens again. I've had the 504 error twice now so if the MY2020 Bosch notes apply then on the 3rd time it'll be a visit to a dealer to get it cleared.

Since the last error I road mine about 150 miles unrestricted then put it back to stock and did 80 or so and stuck it back on and have since done another 100 or so unrestricted. Not sure if this will work indefinitely but just waiting for my new bike to be sorted....dealing with wiggle has been an unpleasant experience..

 

[MixLoaf]

Yeah was gonna try the same thing. Maybe 100 with box on then 50 off or something. Its a right ballache if it happens again when im miles away from home though!

 

[MixLoaf]

Anyone had the 3 strikes and had to go to dealer yet? I dread having to go to my closest dealer as it takes at least a week with the bike in the shop before they even consider looking at it...

 

[Marc_250]

Not me although I doubt it will be long. Be interesting what the dealer has to say.

I've already had a frank discussion with a local bike shop (says he has the official Bosch stuff but isn't shown on Bosch's website however was completely onside and recommended Shimano if you must tune as opposed the 'main' Bosch dealer that I did get the drive unit replaced at who seemed far more..not friendly) so he know's the story. Presumably they're just told to read you the wrongs of tuning etc and perhaps update the Bosch system to reject any future warranty claims or something then charge you a fee to reset it.

 

[Marc_250]

Seems unplugging tuning box for 10 miles then doing another 150 with it installed only worked for a short time as now hit 3rd 504 error.

 

[Marc_250]

Anyone had the 3 strikes and had to go to dealer yet? I dread having to go to my closest dealer as it takes at least a week with the bike in the shop before they even consider looking at it...

I've now had 3 strikes but again have been able to disconnect the tuning box do 10 miles or so in limp mode and it returned to normal once more...so the tuning box will be going back on...roll on 4th strike...

 

[ricbartm]

Hello everybody,

I'm new in the forum. I have a similar issue. Does anybody have an update to share about this issue? @Marc_250 maybe?

I have a Brand new Riese Muller Multicharger GT with Rohloff E14 shifting and around 62 "fake" (~100 miles) the 504 error appeared. In my case I'm using a BadassBox 4, which works by faking the km/h after 17kmph is reached, dividing by two the real speed. The BOSCH DriveUnit firmware is v1.8.4.0, which looks the latest one according to Updates and software versions for on-board computers and drives

Performance Line CX from MY15: 1.8.4.0
Performance Line CX from MY20: 1.0.2.0

Now the error appears every time I power on the bike and it disappears as soon as I press any button on my Intuvia display. The assistance works for 2 seconds the first time I power it on but then it stops assisting without showing any error again.

Today I did 10 miles as @MixLoaf suggested, but to be said, not in one go. I have been a bit impatient to see if after some km the assistance recovered a little bit, so the bike was powered off and on twice during the ride. After 1h 13m in total (50m in movement) the error 504 was prompting at startup anyways. The bike weighs 26kg and 85km me, so despite usually doing road cycling frequently, doing 10 miles in the city with red lights making you to full stop and moving the monster from scratch is hard.

I'll bring the bike to my local shop where I bought it (where the BadassBox was sold too) for them to check it with BOSCH (I don't care to lose the warranty, but I don't want a locked engine). So far they told me it's a magnet adjusting problem, but it looks like BOSCH MY2020 engines got some kind of anti-tuning capabilities.

Regards,

 

[Marc_250]

Sorry I didn't get anywhere further with this @ricbartm just bought another bike instead (with a Shimano drive unit). Mine took a good 45-60min ride to clear the error with the 'tuning' box removed. But it'll only come back again if you reattach (in another few hundred miles). Still surprised there isn't more complaints about this 'issue' online.

 

[ricbartm]

Thanks Mark for the answer.

I'll try further this week to see if the error clears out. I can't really change the bike, given that the bike was purposedly bought to be able to fit two child seats in the back during the commute to school.

The worse of this issue is the on-purpose misinformation around it. Is it 60min or 90min? Does it count by time or distance? How long? I'll try to report as soon if I manage to clear it out.

Regards,

 

[Marc_250]

@ricbartm just seems the info isn;t out there atm...

What's "interesting" is you reported your first 504 Error came at ~100 real/GPS miles where as I was getting north of 200 GPS miles of unrestricted riding before mine would 504. However I was using a 'speedbox' dongle and you're using the badass attachment so could be noteworthy then again maybe not. If it doesn't clear then a dealer will clear it for you but until someone comes up with a proper 'fix' you will be stuck at 15mph...

I'm interested (purely curiosity) how Bosch are detecting it (more so with an external thing like the badass). Guessing some sort of inaccuracy in the tuning devices that can be tracked and grows with distance covered or perhaps their software looks for some specific trends that show up in data for deristricted bikes...or maybe they've stuck a GPS device in the drive unit!...who knows..

 

[ricbartm]

Hello. The error appeared after 62 fake kilometers, which are 100 fake miles (because of the speed reduction the BadassBox implements). So, those are ~120 real km or ~200 real miles. it matches your observations with the SpeedBox.

How Bosch is detecting this in my case would be:
* I have a Rohloff E14 electronic shifting gearhub and there is for sure coordination between gearbox and engine (there is when I change gear power halts while it changes, and Intuvia display shows the gear I'm on). Engine might be programmed with the gear multipliers as Intuvia display shows Firmware for E14 gearbox as for Shimano Alfine and Nuvinci electronic shifting.
* With the gear multipliers and my cadence they can know how fast I really go in that specific bike. Maybe this problem is specific of Rohloff E14 or electronic shifting in general.

At this point, if there is a substantial difference between cadence and Rohloff E14 gear multiplier they can detect tuning. I'm sold if that's the case. My bike is a really hi-end with the Rohloff E14 and the engine might have more information than with a regular Shimano XT 11v delarieur.

I'll keep you posted.

Regards,

 

[Marc_250]

Mine was only low end with regular mtb gears no electronic connection although it did also do the cutting of power thing during a gear shift...guess it could detect it somehow.

 

[ricbartm]

Hello,

Today on my way to my local BOSCH dealer the issue disappeared. I'm not sure if it was because:
* reached ~11 miles (17.x km) since I disconnected the BadassBox
* reached 1hour of non-tuned activity since I disconnected the BadassBox

It looks like is not a requirement to do it in one go, so that is good news.

As soon as I arrived at the shop I powered off and powered on and the 504 error didn't show up as usual. We connected to the BOSCH Diagnosis Tool anyways and the 504 error appeared in the tool, even it already cleared out. The "tuning detection" counter had value 1. Another thing that I saw is that the own bike knows about the multipliers of my gearbox and they can't be changed (at least in an intuitive way) from the Diagnostics Tool. They might have it from the balls because of this.

The local dealer told me that they recently received training three weeks ago and BOSCH told they were not going to backport the anti-tuning measures to Gen2 and Gen3 engines, even they apparently did with the latest 1.8.4.0 firmware. They will bring this issue to BOSCH to figure-out what's the matter, given that, despite what we see in the news, tuning is something that is discussed in these official training and in closed rooms.

On the other hand, I have been in conversations with BadassBikes and they will provide me with a BadassBox for BOSCH enclosure but with a SHIMANO firmware. Apparently they ran in a similar issue with SHIMANO 2019 firmware and SHIMANO Alfine Di2 electronic gear hub. I'll likely receive this new item after New Year Eve and I'll give it a try.

Regards,

 

[Marc_250]

Good luck, at least more info than I've seen before.

I'm dubious about any quick fixes as this isn't Bosch forcing the issue but the EU muppets telling Bosch 'sort it or else big fine etc' so I'm sure they've demonstrated to the regulatory muppets that their system is reasonably good.

 

[Marc_250]

Looks like speedbox now acknowledge their old stuff doesn't work properly with 2020/Gen 4 kit but....their new 3.0 version does
SpeedBox 3.0 for Bosch - Quantity: 1 pcs, Box :: SpeedBox Tuning

Sounds like a bit of a pain having to leave the bike turned on after every ride for whatever deviation is been corrected..what with that tending to be the time you plug it in!

Not a great solution but a solution...

 

[Tribey]

When using SpeedBox 3.0 with Bosch motors of the 4th generation (produced in 2020 or later) it is necessary to leave the bike on after finishing the ride until a value of 0.0 km/h is displayed. During this process the remaining time will be displayed in minutes. Then it is safe to turn off your bike and you can start looking forward to your next trip.

I don't understand how long you have to wait for the speed reading to reach zero km/h.
In any case, this'll be the time after I reach my van, load the bike and change my kit, so may not be an issue.

 

[Marc_250]

I'm intrigued what is happening during this 'finished riding' stage..and thus what it is Bosch put in place to detect tampering in the first place.

I can only think it's adding distance to the computer whilst the bike is stood still (to correct the fake mileage during the actual ride)...which would indicate it has GPS built in? That said I don't think I'm right as I frequently ride through dense woodland where my cheapo GPS speedo is useless so would erroneously trigger a 504...

 

[kntr]

I wonder if you can still use the walk function.

 

[kouettte]

Hi all,

I have a Performance line CX Gen4 that I got the error 504 on after riding about 70Km (it had a badass 4 fitted), and it took 90 minutes/30 Km to get rid of the error.
This weekend, I fitted a speedbox 3.0, all good so far (as epxected), 30Km done.
I do at least 160Km/week, so if in 2 weeks, I still don't get the 504 error, I think we can assume the new speedbox works.

 

[WilkyWay]

Hi all,

I have a Performance line CX Gen4 that I got the error 504 on after riding about 70Km (it had a badass 4 fitted), and it took 90 minutes/30 Km to get rid of the error.
This weekend, I fitted a speedbox 3.0, all good so far (as epxected), 30Km done.
I do at least 160Km/week, so if in 2 weeks, I still don't get the 504 error, I think we can assume the new speedbox works.

Keep us posted! I'd be interested to see if anyone has any issues. How long did you have to wait at the end of the ride until you could turn off the bike?

 

[kouettte]

I will do!
This morning, after a 20K ride (35 minutes), it took about 90 seconds. The speedometer alternates between 0 and a number that decreases (it's not seconds though, I can try to take a video of it tomorrow).
One thing I noted is that after I stop, the motor does not re-engage immediately, it only does after a couple of seconds. I think that's because of the countdown (bike is stopped, but motor thinks it's not).