Bosch CX vs EP8 - real world differences?

[Sofaboy73]

I’m sure this will of been asked before, however has any one got time in both motors and card to share their real works experience on differences?

in The market for a new e-bike as my bikes got stolen at the weekend. Had about a 1000 trouble free miles on the the Bosch in my trek rail and really liked the motor. However Really tempted by the new heckler with the EP8 as the replacement, although have concerns on the reported lack of grunt of the EP8 compared to the Bosch.

A number of reports suggest its Better power delivery at lower cadences and then fades as you spin more - I tend to ride at a higher cadence naturally

any thoughts?

 

[Mteam]

I've got the Bosch gen4 in a wild FS and have spent some time on ep8 bikes.the ep 8 is not as powerful as the Bosch,but it's not a huge difference. The Shimano has the better controls and display

I wouldn't let the motor sway your choice if the rest of the bike is what you want.

 

[jbrown15]

I've got the Bosch gen4 in a wild FS and have spent some time on ep8 bikes.the ep 8 is not as powerful as the Bosch,but it's not a huge difference. The Shimano has the better controls and display

I wouldn't let the motor sway your choice if the rest of the bike is what you want.

I also have a Wild with the Bosch and a Devinci with the older E8000 and have spent some time on the new EP8. A truly winning combo would be the Bosch motor and battery with the Shimano display and mode button.

Also with having Sram AXS on my bike I really wonder why Bosch couldn't have a wireless mode switch/button that could communicated with the display for less wiring.

 

[pmcdonald]

I did a back to back ride on the weekend on my Merida e160 then a mates Rail 7, same loop, same conditions. In lieu of multi-day loans these days when shopping for a bike it was nice to do that direct comparison.

Impressions were:
* I found emtb and trail modes VERY similar. Neither was lacking in any way on the steep resets. I don't use boost much so didn't spend much time in turbo.
* The Bosch felt a little more 'relentless' in its power delivery, meaning it was always there. The moment I'd ease off the pedals on the EP8 it'd back way off. Occasionally that would cause a hiccup if I hit a dip and lost my peddle momentum.
* As trade off, by always being in step with my cadence and power input the EP8 felt significantly more natural. Riding the loop I almost forgot it was there. I was always aware of the Bosch assist.
* The Bosch had a noticeable 'rubber-band' power delivery. It took longer to wind up to full power, and felt like I was riding a building surge of torque. Very handy for technical overruns, but quite an artificial feeling coming off the EP8.
* Rattle on the EP8 was more noticeable thank clunking on the Bosch. Neither was a deal breaker in my book.
* Both motors were significantly more natural feeling than my Yamaha hardtail. It feels quite... agricultural in contrast. Still gets the job done just fine. All three felt in the same power range.
* I have no comment on relative efficiency or warranty service (touch wood). The last 20% on the EP8 and Yamaha is a horror show.
* The Purion and 5003 displays were equally up-yours blasts from the 90's.

After watching Rob's videos on motor comparisons and the Rail I wondered if going down the EP8 route meant I was missing out on a religious motor experience with the Bosch. I'm now at ease. They're both a blast. Neither are lacking in their power delivery whatsoever. My vote: EP8 for that feeling of bike and rider being in lock step, Bosch for that extra surge of power. I'd still give the nod to the Yamaha over both for technical uphills.

 

[DOMBUSH]

I've ridden extensively on both and currently own the Shimano.

I found the Bosch to be punchier and ultimately more powerful but the power delivery of the Shimano more natural feeling. The Bosch had a more pronounced "overrun" characteristic, delivering power after you've paused pedalling. The Shimano does the same when on "Boost" but closely matches your own pedalling inputs in the lower power modes. I didn't play with the power settings.

Ultimately, they're both good motors and I selected my most recent bike based on the chassis rather than the motor.

Within my group it's generally felt that the Bosch motor is more battery efficient but as i normally run out of steam before the bike - it makes no difference to me.

Regarding reliability, both of them were reliable but i take care regarding the conditions i rode in and washed the motor area very carefully. Our group have had a couple of Shimano speed sensors fail but we assumed wire routing on the frame was the cause. I do tend to agree that the Bosch does seem to be easier to get repaired when outside of warranty.

And then there's the handlebar controls (I didn't have the latest variant). Prefer the minimalism of the Shimano. Bosch worked fine but it looked a bit ugly.

Hope that helps

 

[Growmac]

I have had zero luck getting any warranty support from Madison / Shimano. In contrast, the three Bosch riders I ride with have all had exemplary service from Bosch. My next ebike won't be Shimano powered.

 

[Mteam]

I have had zero luck getting any warranty support from Madison / Shimano. In contrast, the three Bosch riders I ride with have all had exemplary service from Bosch. My next ebike won't be Shimano powered.

What has gone wrong with the shimano that madison/shimano refused to cover?

 

[Growmac]

Covered extensively elsewhere omnibus here, but.

There's an intermittent E010 error that goes away by turning off and on. Plus some intermittent surging / loss of power. Lots of error codes on read pointing to the torque sensor and speed sensor. Madison said to just keep an eye on it, and now it's out of warranty.

Battery wise, the BT-8035 internal 503 wh batteries degrade ludicrously fast. My first is at 78% health at 60 cycles, with a much bigger impact on range than that would suggest, it's basically useless below 40%. No reserve and dies incredibly quickly. Madison say that's no problem and as designed. No warranty. New battery is doing the same, at a cost of £650, and there's plenty on a thread here that are finding the same. And yes, I look after it. Bring it inside, store at 60%, only charge on the day of the ride etc.

 

[Motohawk75]

I think this is being sugar coated tbh, ive had two Santa Cruz bikes with ep8 and two Rails with bosh (currently a 22 Rail 9.8 new bosh smart)
The bosh isn’t a little bit more powerful its a lot more powerful, forget the NM figure because that leads you to believe there going to be very similar and there not , ep8 in boost is like the bosh in tour.
My favourite bikes unfortunately have the ep8 and if ya not fussed about the motor that much then the ep8 certainly isn’t bad but if your expecting it to match the Bosh you’re be disappointed

 

[Mteam]

Covered extensively elsewhere omnibus here, but.

There's an intermittent E010 error that goes away by turning off and on. Plus some intermittent surging / loss of power. Lots of error codes on read pointing to the torque sensor and speed sensor. Madison said to just keep an eye on it, and now it's out of warranty.

Battery wise, the BT-8035 internal 503 wh batteries degrade ludicrously fast. My first is at 78% health at 60 cycles, with a much bigger impact on range than that would suggest, it's basically useless below 40%. No reserve and dies incredibly quickly. Madison say that's no problem and as designed. No warranty. New battery is doing the same, at a cost of £650, and there's plenty on a thread here that are finding the same. And yes, I look after it. Bring it inside, store at 60%, only charge on the day of the ride etc.

sounds like a poor experience - certainly one to take into account when choosing a bike.

 

[Growmac]

I think this is being sugar coated tbh, ive had two Santa Cruz bikes with ep8 and two Rails with bosh (currently a 22 Rail 9.8 new bosh smart)
The bosh isn’t a little bit more powerful its a lot more powerful, forget the NM figure because that leads you to believe there going to be very similar and there not , ep8 in boost is like the bosh in tour.

Riding with three Bosch 4 bikes on my E8000 Merida, this is exactly my impression too.

 

[Bounderwater]

I had similar experience with Shimano and Bosch motors (including all Ep8, E8000, E7000, Performance CX):

- Bosch is more powerful. Emtb mode is as powerful as Boost mode on Shimano (Boost is set in mid setting in this comparison). Emtb mode provides more power when pedalling hard vs. Shimano

- Bosch has a more noticeable overrun after stop pedalling, this character gives Bosch a more "ebike" feel as you can use that overrun to maintain momentum or hold the bike momentarily on a steep climb. Shimano is more natural in Trail mode with very minimum (almost non) overrun, but more overrun can be found in Boost mode

- Shimano's control and display are better in my opinion, but its not an important factor while riding.

- Shimano can be found on more Emtbs/brands vs. Bosch, it gives us more options to choose from.

Don't have enough experience with warranty, reliabilities and after-sales service etc. Hope this helps

 

[Sofaboy73]

thanks for all the input so far, appreciated and seems to confirm the impressions i had. i've tried the E8000 on my mates decoy and the Bosch feels a significant improvement on that, so i guess its a case of how much of an improvement is the EP8 over the E8000?

think this is being sugar coated tbh, ive had two Santa Cruz bikes with ep8 and two Rails with bosh (currently a 22 Rail 9.8 new bosh smart)
The bosh isn’t a little bit more powerful its a lot more powerful, forget the NM figure because that leads you to believe there going to be very similar and there not , ep8 in boost is like the bosh in tour

is that with the shimano settings on max? how did it feel in trail on the shimano motor? is the difference big enough for you not to go back to the shimano on santa cruz bikes?

 

[steve_sordy]

I was not too chuffed with the EP8 power delivery at first until I got into the settings. Changing the Assistance Character has a transformative effect. It has a scale of 1 to 10 and you can alter it in all three modes. I use Trail the most and have it at 8, with 10 for Boost. The Start Assist (1-5) also has a noticeable effect and I have that at 5 in all three modes. That is for Profile 1. I have backed off everything for Profile 2 because that is my designated "get me home" mode.

I met another Forum member on only his second ride out and he commented that his Nukeproof was not as lively as he had hoped (his 1st emtb). Two mins with his mobile to alter his settings and I had transformed his bike. He was over the moon!

The "as supplied" settings were completely different to mine. I wonder if they are random?

 

[knut7]

We compared the CX 85Nm and the EP8 to find out which is stronger. The CX wasn't stronger under all circumstances.

 

[Ian986]

I have Bosch motor in my bike and my partners bike has ep8. The bosch feels much more powerful, and power is instant on the Bosch where I find the EP8 needs more cadence to get best out of it. The EP8 feels more natural and is easier to wheelie, but the Bosch feels much more powerful. On the EP8 bike only have basic controller so can’t adjust the settings like in the video.

I would by the Bosch every time.

 

[1oldfart]

I read so many problems from Shimano, i have no clue why you are interested.
My friend is happy with is Bosch, i am happy with my Yamaha/Giant.
If you want reliable i suggest you pick one of those.

 

[Peaky Rider]

Shimano keeps you fit, Bosch makes you lazy.

 

[w2ge]

I’ve had both…. A Trek Powerfly with Bosch and currently a Canyon Spectral ON w EP8. Tbh, I don’t notice the EP8 bring down on power. I rarely, if ever, use the highest modes… I mean I’m still trying to get some exercise. (And they both have all the power you need, so that the Bosch may be stronger in my mind is moot… it doesn’t “mean anything) My experience however was the Bosch rattled WAYYY more then my EP8, and my Bosch would cut out on very rocky trails.. I understand there’s now a recall, fix for this. The battery pack would lose contact and shutdown. Controller on the EP8 is better than the Bosch.
Both are fine, I would not pick a bike based on Bosch vs Shimano.

 

[steve_sordy]

I read so many problems from Shimano, i have no clue why you are interested.
My friend is happy with is Bosch, i am happy with my Yamaha/Giant.
If you want reliable i suggest you pick one of those.

I have had two Shimano motors now: e8000 (3071m before being sold) and EP8 (1055m, still got it) EDIT 9th Jul'23: 2368m and still fault free. Not large mileages, but I don't commute so nearly all are trail miles. But I have not had the slightest problem with either motor. On the first bike there was a problem with the battery charger, but that was all. No battery problems either. My objections to a Shimano motor are based solely upon the relative difficulty of them being serviced (ranging from difficult, to impossible to do a proper job).
I did not intend to buy a second bike with a Shimano motor, but I was seduced by the Merida eOne-Sixty 9000 that I was very lucky to find.

 

[steve_sordy]

.......................
Both are fine, I would not pick a bike based on Bosch vs Shimano.

I have no disagreement with your other points. However, I DID choose a bike based upon the motor. It was before the pandemic triggered supply chain problems when emtbs were widely available. I was able to test 7 different bikes (Haibike, Moustache, 2xCube, Giant, Focus, Speccy). Between them they had the usual range of wheel sizes, motors, control systems etc. I was choosing my first emtb, so I was coming from a position of ignorance. Eventually, but with complete confidence, I chose the Focus. The ride experience felt like it was me having a really good day on an mtb, and not like the other bikes where it felt all the time like I was on an mtb with a powerful motor. It also happened to be the only one with a Shimano motor. That ride experience convinced me to get the Focus. The ride experience has been maintained and improved with the EP8.
When it comes time to change bikes, I'm hoping to have more choice and I look forward to testing the various other motors for myself with some experience to draw upon this time, although on principle I am still biased away from the Shimano motor (for reasons, see post #20).

 

[jbrown15]

Having both Shimano and Bosch I still prefer the Bosch, by quite a bit. But that still wouldn’t stop me from buying a particular bike if it had a Shimano motor.

 

[Motohawk75]

thanks for all the input so far, appreciated and seems to confirm the impressions i had. i've tried the E8000 on my mates decoy and the Bosch feels a significant improvement on that, so i guess its a case of how much of an improvement is the EP8 over the E8000?



is that with the shimano settings on max? how did it feel in trail on the shimano motor? is the difference big enough for you not to go back to the shimano on santa cruz bikes?

yep i have had the setting maxed out on both trail and boost and yes its obviously better but still can’t compete with the Bosh and now with the new bosh smart system 750 with it all turned up in turbo its not even comparable im afraid.
would i buy another SC bike even tho it has the ep8….. probably yeah because for me personally there the only bikes that i feel i just have to own ! However if you want a bike to propelling you along and your planning on using the motor to do all or most of the work the bosh wins all day long

 

[sgtcurry]

Having the EP8 RS in the 21 Rise, the EP8 in the 22 Heckler and the CX gen 4 in the 21 Rail 9.7. The CX gen 4 feels more powerful, assists more up to the limit and is more efficient. I am by far the fastest on the Rail 9.7 its just so fast at kicking in and keeping the assist vs either EP8's. This is in Turbo in the CX and Boost in both EP8's with basically everything maxed on both EP8s. The heckler with a 720wh gets about the same or a little less range than my 650w in the rail while IMO being less powerful.

The only thing the EP8 has that is more desirable is that it feels more natural, as in it likes higher cadence and it kicks in more smoothly or linearly vs the CX Gen 4 which kicks in hard early and keeps on all the way up.

 

[Sofaboy73]

. The heckler with a 720wh gets about the same or a little less range than my 650w in the rail while IMO being less powerful.

that's a little concerning, i was hoping the 3rd party battery performed better than the shimano ones (although i guess it's the efficiency of the motor) and would find it a little galling to only get similar ranges form a bigger battery - do find it's prety constant in it's performance like this?

other than that, how do you find the new heckler compared to the rail?

 

[Edmu]

One aspect that should be considered: warranty response.

In the e-Bike universe, it’s not a matter of “if” but “when”, you will need to look into a replacement motor and/or battery. I only have 1st hand experience with Shimano (ep8 system).

Shimano’s customer service is non-existent. Other makes may (or may not) fare better, but I doubt any would be worse than Shimano.

 

[Rawmance]

Generally all the motors are good enough for casual use. But there's really only Shimano EP8 that stands out as the worst. Buying an EP8 is the same as buying an old battery on a lower power bike. Sam's ebike did a test for 750Wh batteries and Shimano had by far the worst range at 1200+m of vert while all others Bosch, Brose, Yamaha all did above 1400+m.

There's a bike radar test in which Shimano EP8 had the most range but that is false. They used profile 1 meaning it was around 70Nm not 85Nm on profile 2.

There's a lot of bikes that are ruined by Shimano motors. Doesn't matter if you are buying a bike for grocery shopping but for any trail rider it makes a huge difference.

I've had both EP8 and Bosch CX. And there is a massive difference. When I've done a maximal run on the EP8 on a few minute segment it's still slower than a casual comfortable run on Bosch CX. For example today I did a run on a 2 and a half minute segment on the Bosch, slipped on a root came to a stop. And was still 10 seconds faster than on the EP8 with more effort.

The only reason to buy a Shimano is the Husqvarnas because they assist up to 30kmh. Which if you are racing xc type flatter trails then you have an obvious advantage. But that is a very niche scenario. Specialized assists up to 28kmh. Bosch assists up to 27kmh. And the old EP8 on my Devinci assisted to 26kmh. But any technical sections with enough roots or rocks to slow you down the power matters and Shimano can't hang with the rest.

 

[RustyIron]

Shimano’s customer service is non-existent.

I've only had three experiences with Shimano in regards to eMTB's. One was a broken bracket. They sent me a new one and it arrived two days later. Another was a power switch. That one was three or four days getting to me. The last was battery that wasn't as good as it was when it was new, so I asked for another. A new one arrived in less than a week.

I find your claim confusing, considering that either Shimano's customer service DOES exist, or some very clever person has gone to a great deal of trouble to trick me into believing in their existence. Maybe you don't have the right phone number and email address for Shimano. I can provide them if you need help.