BLEvo Game Over (with MasterMind TCU)

[MarkoPetejan]

OK, the point we are talking here is this:

1.) app can read sensor data from bike , such as speed, cadence, power, battery level, etc.
This is used to display, to store, to calculate statistics.

2.) app can change support level (based on those statistics)
Instead of doing it manually in Mission Control, it can be done automatically based on power readings etc.
(Granted, due to slow communication and not he best implementation in TCU - not as effectively and smoothly as it could.)
However there is NO WAY to change any speed limit or power limit given by the motor.


Bosch bikes have 4 riding modes, one of which is "EMTB mode".
I don't know exactly how EMTB mode works, but based on my information "it changes support level based on input power".
Not unlike what was described in [2]
So [2] is needed to make something inferior to Bosch (!!!) better.

I personally need this to tell the bike "hey, I'm able to go as high as XXX Watts, you do the rest".
I can train in heart rate zones or/and in power zones (granted, app could be better interfacing this, but OK).
It saves battery life and gives me adequate support on a changing terrain.

NOTHING described above does anything - in any shape or form - against regulatory requirements.
Nothing.

3) De-restricting with some additional electronics or mechanical devices however does, but has NOTHING to do with this, whatsoever.
This is not even possible to do in ANY app at least from 2019 onward.

You are closing all access for [1] and [2], allegedly "because of [3]" and this makes ZERO sense to me.


I can not buy new Specialized bike now, because frankly - in a closed proprietary system, all thing being equal - Bosch is better.
EMTB mode aside, the very reason I bought Specialized is because I want to be able to control MY PROPERTY the way I want.
If you guys go now the Bosch or even Apple way, well, I'm more of a sausage guy... and Linux and stuff...

That being said, I did not test Mastermind TCU, but from what I gather I must congratulate on direction it took.
You have been listening to comments, and it shows. Bravo!

However I will not buy it because of this situation, whatever it does and however good it is,
I will not buy it even if it is so good, I don't even need an (third party) app.
Not ever.
Because principles.


Instead I will be working on this bike to max out everything. Now I have the incentive, because new bikes will never can.
It will have even better app, even better control, I will replace whatever electronics I can, hell, even de-restrict.
It will be faster, stronger and better than any new bike with proprietary app or TCU, being Mission Control or Mission Impossible, being Master Mind or Death Star.
And because of this it will hold the price, the value of my bike for a long time.
So thank you.

 

[RobertD]

Thanks for the namecheck. The regulars on this forum know that we welcome honest feedback - even when that's challenging - and this is indeed a difficult topic. We can see that the change of connectivity protocol used with the Mastermind TCU has hit a nerve with BLEvo users. We hear you, we're sorry to hear your disappointment, we do listen and will continue to follow this issue. A few comments that will help to explain the situation and our position: -

For existing owners/bikes already in the field:

• There are no retrospective changes to communications protocol planned - meaning that bikes already in the field should continue to work as they always have done, even after any firmware updates that may come in the future. Whilst we don't test with 3rd party apps, we're confident that if an app is already working with your bike you'll be able to keep using it as long as the developers provide support.

For new bikes made from 2021 onwards featuring Mastermind TCU:

• New products often bring new features/new tech. Yes, we've changed our communications protocol and added encryption to support new features - there's more to come here that will increasingly make sense over time. We've been equally torn here - but we honestly believe you'll feel the same way as us once new features are released.
• We've only changed the way that devices/apps wanting to control bike performance settings authenticate and connect. We continue to support connectivity with ANT+/BLE devices and apps (such as Garmin/Wahoo etc.) that read/store/mirror bike data.

What's our position on working with 3rd party app developers in the future?

We love the creativity that comes from owners, riders, free thinkers and experts. We've always wanted connectivity with our bikes to be as open as possible, however this has to be balanced with 2 key factors: -

• System integrity. We have more electric bikes in the field globally than some manufacturers have electric cars. As bikes continue to play an increasingly important role in transport infrastructure, new industry standards are going to be set. Firmware updates need to be smoother and quicker, onboard diagnostics need to improve. Few car manufacturers allow 3rd parties to connect to their vehicles, those that do have clear terms and conditions.
• The regulatory requirements that we have from government and trade bodies. All eBike manufacturers are on a level playing field here, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Specialized can't partner with developers that actively enable users to bypass regional speed limits.

It is possible that we'll enable 3rd party connectivity with new products again in the future - just under clearer terms with app developers. We're not suggesting an immediate answer and have already been transparent with @PaoloBLEvo that we don't have a working solution right now. However we know BLEvo is important to many on this forum and will follow this thread together with our in-house connectivity team.

Specialized Rider Care

Thanks Specialized Rider Care for your post. I found BLevo shortly after buying my first Levo, I have recently taken delivery of my 3rd Levo. I
have two members of my bike club who also bought Levos based on the performance enhacing BLevo App (that is 5 new bikes). I never even considered an alternative manufacturer BLevo is so good. You have made it clear in your post that at present BLevo cannot be used with your new TCU system, but may be available some time down the line. I want to just make this point, untill BLevo can be connected to your Levos then my friends and I will be searching alternative manufactures for our future bikes. Indeed if BLevo can be connected to alternative manufacturers bikes then those will be the bikes for us. One final point:-
Please don't let your sales prevention team win on this!!
Please allow BLevo to connect to your bikes! If not you have lost mine and many other's custom based on you latest incredibly daft decision to exclude BLevo!

 

[eagerly]

OK, the point we are talking here is this:

1.) app can read sensor data from bike , such as speed, cadence, power, battery level, etc.
This is used to display, to store, to calculate statistics.

2.) app can change support level (based on those statistics)
Instead of doing it manually in Mission Control, it can be done automatically based on power readings etc.
(Granted, due to slow communication and not he best implementation in TCU - not as effectively and smoothly as it could.)
However there is NO WAY to change any speed limit or power limit given by the motor.


Bosch bikes have 4 riding modes, one of which is "EMTB mode".
I don't know exactly how EMTB mode works, but based on my information "it changes support level based on input power".
Not unlike what was described in [2]
So [2] is needed to make something inferior to Bosch (!!!) better.

I personally need this to tell the bike "hey, I'm able to go as high as XXX Watts, you do the rest".
I can train in heart rate zones or/and in power zones (granted, app could be better interfacing this, but OK).
It saves battery life and gives me adequate support on a changing terrain.

NOTHING described above does anything - in any shape or form - against regulatory requirements.
Nothing.

3) De-restricting with some additional electronics or mechanical devices however does, but has NOTHING to do with this, whatsoever.
This is not even possible to do in ANY app at least from 2019 onward.

You are closing all access for [1] and [2], allegedly "because of [3]" and this makes ZERO sense to me.


I can not buy new Specialized bike now, because frankly - in a closed proprietary system, all thing being equal - Bosch is better.
EMTB mode aside, the very reason I bought Specialized is because I want to be able to control MY PROPERTY the way I want.
If you guys go now the Bosch or even Apple way, well, I'm more of a sausage guy... and Linux and stuff...

That being said, I did not test Mastermind TCU, but from what I gather I must congratulate on direction it took.
You have been listening to comments, and it shows. Bravo!

However I will not buy it because of this situation, whatever it does and however good it is,
I will not buy it even if it is so good, I don't even need an (third party) app.
Not ever.
Because principles.


Instead I will be working on this bike to max out everything. Now I have the incentive, because new bikes will never can.
It will have even better app, even better control, I will replace whatever electronics I can, hell, even de-restrict.
It will be faster, stronger and better than any new bike with proprietary app or TCU, being Mission Control or Mission Impossible, being Master Mind or Death Star.
And because of this it will hold the price, the value of my bike for a long time.
So thank you.

Uau...this post strikes perfectly where it should. @Specialized Rider Care , if you don't like people tampering with extenders, or external hardware to derestrict the speed limits, you can address and block this possibility by closing the backdoors in the FW/HW, without banning an app, and the developer. Would it just be less easy, but more correct?
We really don't understand what is happening here...

 

[ruppia]

Paolo, i've got a question. In your first post you said:

2. More expensive option (to be tested more in deep): buy the latest bike model with a MasterMind TCU, buy a previous 2019 model TCU with the blue lights. Exchange it with the MasterMind TCU. The additional investment will be €169 euro and continue to use BLEvo. The TCU part nr. is S194200017. Google is your friend here.

Do you now if with these option you can easily swap TCU ? Of course, the first time you need LBS and turbo app, but after is it possible to swap without any problem ?

Luca

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

Paolo, i've got a question. In your first post you said:

2. More expensive option (to be tested more in deep): buy the latest bike model with a MasterMind TCU, buy a previous 2019 model TCU with the blue lights. Exchange it with the MasterMind TCU. The additional investment will be €169 euro and continue to use BLEvo. The TCU part nr. is S194200017. Google is your friend here.

Do you now if with these option you can easily swap TCU ? Of course, the first time you need LBS and turbo app, but after is it possible to swap without any problem ?

Luca

I will test in deep when I will receive the new Kenevo SL, but I think you don't need to do anything.. very easy to swap.. less that one minute....
Today I tested the opposite swap.. I mounted the MasterMind and Kenevo 2020 and it work correctly...

 

[ruppia]

I will test in deep when I will receive the new Kenevo SL, but I think you don't need to do anything.. very easy to swap.. less that one minute....
Today I tested the opposite swap.. I mounted the MasterMind and Kenevo 2020 and it work correctly...

Thanks, i thougth TCU must be combined to bike by LBS. So i think i'm going straight with this solution

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

Thanks, i thougth TCU must be combined to bike by LBS. So i think i'm going straight with this solution

Yes, it "should be" but it is nor necessary.. In anycase, after the first "pairing" is not necessary other operation by the LBS

 

[ruppia]

This evening i will try the old one. And during the weekend i will ride with blevo one again, yeppa

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

This evening i will try the old one. And during the weekend i will ride with blevo one again, yeppa

Let us know..

 

[StiwiMKS]

• System integrity. We have more electric bikes in the field globally than some manufacturers have electric cars. As bikes continue to play an increasingly important role in transport infrastructure, new industry standards are going to be set. Firmware updates need to be smoother and quicker, onboard diagnostics need to improve. Few car manufacturers allow 3rd parties to connect to their vehicles, those that do have clear terms and conditions.

@Specialized Rider Care First of all, thanks for trying to explain Specialized's point of view.
But the trying to excuse your companys decision with a car manufacturer fact doesn't work, because your fact IMHO isn't true.
With OBD-II there is a standardized interface to read car data from CAN bus and for some cases also a way to change specific car settings.

 

[msruby64]

I would just like to add my 2 cents to hope that Specialized will work with PaoloBLEvo and allow the BLEvo app to work with new Specialized bikes. I feel that Paolo has been an integral part of the Levo development and community. Many of us find his app extremely useful as others have pointed out.

 

[zorro77]

My Gen3 arrived yesterday but I said I don't withdraw it because I can't use Bilevo. The seller is a friend and he told me that I am not the first who does not want to withdraw anymore for this reason

Please Specialized

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

I would just like to add my 2 cents to hope that Specialized will work with PaoloBLEvo and allow the BLEvo app to work with new Specialized bikes. I feel that Paolo has been an integral part of the Levo development and community. Many of us find his app extremely useful as others have pointed out.

Thanks for your 2 cents..

 

[ruppia]

Let us know..

I did in the weekend nearly 200 km. Blevo with old TCU works perfectly.
For the first time i use BLEvo with android and it seems magical for many small aspects.
I will make some more tests because some value on the report are strange. I will contact Paolo for this reason.

Guys, with the old TCU, the bike it's a dream, you can have all information at your side during and after the ride.
Great

 

[Jersey Skier]

I did in the weekend nearly 200 km. Blevo with old TCU works perfectly.
For the first time i use BLEvo with android and it seems magical for many small aspects.
I will make some more tests because some value on the report are strange. I will contact Paolo for this reason.

Guys, with the old TCU, the bike it's a dream, you can have all information at your side during and after the ride.
Great

Did you do any type of update? I tried the TCU from my Creo on my Pro and it took a while to connect. Once I got it connected the speed limit on my Pro is reduced from 20mph max to 15.8. Same issue I've been having with my Creo and Blevo. New TCU on the creo won't start. Gives an error message.

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

Did you do any type of update? I tried the TCU from my Creo on my Pro and it took a while to connect. Once I got it connected the speed limit on my Pro is reduced from 20mph max to 15.8. Same issue I've been having with my Creo and Blevo. New TCU on the creo won't start. Gives an error message.

Maybe in US or where the speed limit is higher than 25km/h this change of the TCU cannot be done.. In any case I think the biker can choice to don't want to have the display on the bike and to use the old TCU. Could you ask to your dealer to recover the speed limit?

 

[Jersey Skier]

Maybe in US or where the speed limit is higher than 25km/h this change of the TCU cannot be done.. In any case I think the biker can choice to don't want to have the display on the bike and to use the old TCU. Could you ask to your dealer to recover the speed limit?

This speed limit only happens when I run Blevo. If I switch over to Mission Control it goes back to normal.

 

[Trail Blazer]

Will Levociraptor still work for Gen 3 for speed increase?

 

[ruppia]

Did you do any type of update? I tried the TCU from my Creo on my Pro and it took a while to connect. Once I got it connected the speed limit on my Pro is reduced from 20mph max to 15.8. Same issue I've been having with my Creo and Blevo. New TCU on the creo won't start. Gives an error message.

Yes, LBS set the TCU version 1 with bike data. Now i have 2 TCU, old and new, with the same WSBC code
Could be the reason why ?

 

[PaoloBLEvo]

Yes, LBS set the TCU version 1 with bike data. Now i have 2 TCU, old and new, with the same WSBC code
Could be the reason why ?

Really I don't know.. and it not so easy to understand for me, because in Italy the limit is always the same...

 

[ecotrials]

I too purchased the Levo after discovering BLEvo. This, for me, relegated all other manufacturer's irrelevant.
I love the amount of control I have using BLEvo with the remote from O'Synce. I have set it up to increase or decrease the % assistance by either 5 or 15 %. I try to ride with minimal assistance and this let's me conserve battery until it is really needed.

The park where I live has about 53 miles of fire road and I am trying to ride all the fire roads in a single ride. The route I have come up with so far is about 62.5 miles (some back tracking or re-riding some portions are necessary to get all the fire roads in.
In a couple of "let's see if this is even possible" rides, I have completed a 47 mile, 10,350 ft of ascending, 7hr 8min ride using 84% of the battery and then a 54.9 mile, 11,592 ft of ascending,, 8hr 16 min ride using 93% of the battery. I am trying to gain a bit more muscle and will await cooler temperatures before trying again, it is getting hot out here in California.

By using the remote via BLEvo I hope to conserve enough energy to make the ride a reality. For reference, I am 71 years old and in reasonable shape.

So Specialized, please pay attention to the members of this forum! I love my 2021 Levo Comp, but in NO SMALL PART because of the utility provide by Paolo and his BLEvo app. I love telling other riders about my bike and all the utility I have found using BLEvo.
If I ever buy another bike, (or recommend a new emtb), it will be with the caveat that Specialized has opted to change their bikes so that BLEvo no longer works with 2022 forward models. For me, a non-BLEvo capable Levo will not be in the running. Very sad.

Paul

 

[RoedeOrm]

My Feedback to Specialized as I always use BLEvo with Heart Rate due to health reason:
If I will not be able to use my next bike with BLEvo there is no more killing feature with Specialized. Other manufacturers there also selling good e-bikes.

 

[Kave]

I chose specialized because if blevo. I might buy that 2020 s-works frameset now so I will have a good bike for many years.

 

[Jersey Skier]

Having gone from a 2018 with Blevo to a 22 with Smart Control it's really disappointing. Smart Control HR refuses to stay connected for more than a few minutes at a time. Power seems to lag way behind what my HR needs. Then as my HR starts dropping I'll get a sudden power surge for no reason. Blevo was really set it and forget it once it was programed. I could just do the whole ride at one level and still have access to Turbo if needed. With Mission Control there is no way to get to Turbo quickly if you have Smart Control on.

 

[EatSleepRideRepeat]

Whaaaat?!? Just bought a Kenevo SL (waiting to pick it up) and now I read this?! Damn... BLevo was one of the biggest Pros of a Levo/Kenevo. And I didn't even care about the possibility of unlocking the speedlimit. Just having all that data around, that great map, and so much more.. Not a fan of strava and Co because they don't collect the Watts and Support Level and so on from my bike. That was HUGE and only possible thanks to BLevo! Looks like I have to visit the guys from Specialized Europe here in the hood where they're engineering and developing all that great stuff.. Would be a shame if BLevo wouldn't work anymore.. ???

 

[ruppia]

Whaaaat?!? Just bought a Kenevo SL (waiting to pick it up) and now I read this?! Damn... BLevo was one of the biggest Pros of a Levo/Kenevo. And I didn't even care about the possibility of unlocking the speedlimit. Just having all that data around, that great map, and so much more.. Not a fan of strava and Co because they don't collect the Watts and Support Level and so on from my bike. That was HUGE and only possible thanks to BLevo! Looks like I have to visit the guys from Specialized Europe here in the hood where they're engineering and developing all that great stuff.. Would be a shame if BLevo wouldn't work anymore.. ???

The problem is with mastermind TCU. There is a workaround, swap it with the old one.
For now nothing more, only a lot of people disappointed with Specy, like me

 

[BushLevo]

The other thing to consider in all of this, is that the Motor and TCU hardware and firmware design would be the intellectual property of Brose in Switzerland. There would be some coordination of function and design between Brose and Specialized, but if Brose decides to close the communication protocol of Mastermind for reasons of its own, Specialized would have to wear that. Brose may have decided that closing the BLE protocol is a further enhancement to IP protection against copying by other parties, for example.

I guess that only time will tell if this is going to significantly affect sales of new bikes with the Mastermind TCU. That will be be the metric that Specialized will be watching closely. I am pretty happy with my 2019 Levo, and although the extra features of the Mastermind are attractive, am not considering upgrading any time soon. Even less so after discovering this bombshell.

Pretty much every Levo/Kenevo etc. rider who has used BLEVo agrees that it leaves Mission Control in the dust for presentation, usability, function etc. etc... Specialized may find themselves in the position that if they want to claw market share back with Mastermind closed architecture, they will need a SERIOUS re-write of Mission Control. Their IT developers are somewhat lacking in this department.

 

[Zimmerframe]

@PaoloBLEvo Could you modify Blevo a bit ? (I know there's a whole thread on that).

At the moment when you run it and record a ride with no bike connected, all the fields are blank (the map still works).

Could you make it so the none bike fields still work, speed, altitude, heart rates and so on ?

Then people with Masterminds could still use it for some of it's functionality (not heart rate controlled speed or anything motor/battery related) but a lot of that is available on the mastermind anyway.

It might also be the beginnings for Blevo to branch out and not be just for Spesh bikes ? People can use it for ride tracking, mapping and so on like RidewithGPS for example (where you have to subscribe to get Strava upload capability).

 

[#mitch]

@PaoloBLEvo have you looked into using the same encryption in the app that spesh use in the mission control app? Figuring out how they encrypt it on the app side shouldn’t be that hard. It’s not magic just decompile the app and take a look.

 

[#mitch]

So I got interested last night and took a look at the insides of the mission control app and turns out the apps written in a framework called QT which makes figuring out how they do their encryption more difficult than I expected but not impossible. I’ll take a look later