Big battery explosion inside house

[Polar]

Another reason not to buy second hand battery you know nothing about and using a random charger

E-bikes: Battery fire destroys family home days before Christmas

One occupant escaped through the front door and two others were forced to climb on to the roof.

www.bbc.com

https://flip.it/BLCrtU

 

[Jackware]

"The flames were started by an e-bike battery on charge in the home, according to London Fire Brigade (LFB) - who say it shows the dangers of unregulated e-bike sales. LFB confirmed the e-bike was a normal pedal bike that had a lithium-ion battery fitted, which had been purchased online second-hand.
The charger being used was generic and not specific to the battery pack."

 

[Zed.]

modified deliveroo bike?

Rich.

 

[Stihldog]

Could you imagine what would happen if an EV, parked in your garage, suddenly burst into flames . Besides the potential loss of life, or injuries, the manufacturer recall would be huge.

Why are these poorly manufactured batteries allowed. Oh, I know why…

 

[Arminius]

Frightening trend: „E-bikes are one of London's fastest-growing fire risks, with a fire on average once every other day.“

 

[RustyIron]

The bike that caught fire was not a normal eMTB that is manufactured by normal bicycle company. It was some kind of bodged together contraption from sourced parts. Putting engines on bicycles has been a thing since the invention of engines and bicycles, and it hasn't always worked out as the builder expected. Many lives and assets were lost.

Familiar to many of the English folks will be the Petroleum Act of 1879. After the advancements in pumping oil out of the ground, everyone began lighting, heating, and powering with petroleum distillates. Just as it is now with fancy batteries, buildings started blowing up, people began blowing up. Everyone was up in arms. Lawmakers sprung into action, imposing new standards on the storage, transportation, and usage of petroleum products. The chaos soon subsided.

I suspect that even though our top-tier bikes are reasonably safe, our legislators will create regulations that keep the shoddily made junk bikes out of our countries, making lives easier for all of us.

 

[Mad_Angler1]

The issue is most of these really cheap systems cut back on the most important part and that's battery management. Rather than use a proper BMS in the battery they use basic charger and then you get these issues when it's lost or something goes wrong.

The sad fact is people jist don't understand the dangers of these battieries when mistreated.

Iv had several Lipos go up on the bench and it's never fun but iv always been somewhat prepared for it. That happen in a house and it's end game.

As has been said this will be used as a weapon to force more regulation over ebikes simply because of the bad press when in realty these don't remotly resemble the same products we use.

 

[steve_sordy]

.............................

I suspect that even though our top-tier bikes are reasonably safe, our legislators will create regulations that keep the shoddily made junk bikes out of our countries, making lives easier for all of us.

You may be correct; at least they will be doing their job, rather than setting up a quango. My concern would be that they will rush into it (headlines of "action this day!" and so forth) and end up including us lot in the legislation.

 

[Mikerb]

What works against any universal legislation is the fact that lithium batteries are embedded in Govt crass net zero policies. Fortunately for us that will force them to identify the cause of these fires rather than universally condemn lithium battery technology. The biggest danger for our use of these batteries is that there is only a fraction of the mining capacity for the lithium and other rare minerals, worldwide, required to enable the growth of EV car manufacture that Govts are pushing for. The logistics of increasing that capacity will take decades and every aspect from extraction to processing, transportation and manufacture uses fossil fuel . The result is of course massive co2 emissions far greater than any reductions achieved by using EV rather than diesel cars. Yep...its all a nonsense!
Back to our use of lithium batteries......it all means they will become more expensive and eventually unavailable, regardless of minor changes of technology. The future will be some form of liquid fuel which is more abundant and cheaper to transport......e.g. petrol....hehe!

 

[irie]

The result is of course massive co2 emissions far greater than any reductions achieved by using EV rather than diesel cars. Yep...its all a nonsense!

What's the problem with CO2 emissions?

 

[Tooks]

Iv had several Lipos go up on the bench and it's never fun but iv always been somewhat prepared for it. That happen in a house and it's end game.

What are you doing to them?

I’ve been using lipos in my RC hobby since they became available, I’ve only lost one to a fire and that was when I nosed in the rc aircraft from 200ft that it was in.

Charging them with the appropriate quality charger and I’ve never had so much as one get hot.

 

[Tooks]

What works against any universal legislation is the fact that lithium batteries are embedded in Govt crass net zero policies. Fortunately for us that will force them to identify the cause of these fires rather than universally condemn lithium battery technology. The biggest danger for our use of these batteries is that there is only a fraction of the mining capacity for the lithium and other rare minerals, worldwide, required to enable the growth of EV car manufacture that Govts are pushing for. The logistics of increasing that capacity will take decades and every aspect from extraction to processing, transportation and manufacture uses fossil fuel . The result is of course massive co2 emissions far greater than any reductions achieved by using EV rather than diesel cars. Yep...its all a nonsense!
Back to our use of lithium batteries......it all means they will become more expensive and eventually unavailable, regardless of minor changes of technology. The future will be some form of liquid fuel which is more abundant and cheaper to transport......e.g. petrol....hehe!

There’s so much to unpack here, and respectfully a lot of it is wide of the mark, or a bit misleading.

‘Rare minerals’ are also used in all sorts of chemical processing including the refining of petrol. These minerals are amongst the most abundant on earth, but until now there’s been no drive to go find and sell them.

Used/old lithium batteries can also be fully recycled and used to build new ones. You can’t recycle petrol or diesel unfortunately.

When the first petrol cars appeared, there also wasn’t the infrastructure to support it, and nor did it appear overnight, but it was built up over time. Why will a transition to electric passenger cars be any different?

There will be a place for fossil fuel powered vehicles for many decades yet, but we need to do something about the 900+ million miles per day driven on UK roads, especially now there is a viable alternative. EVs are a part of tackling that, but not all of it.

The other thing I’d say is there seems to be a collective cognitive dissonance around the carbon investment required to move to a more sustainable transport solution wherever that is. The carbon investment to get to where we are with ICE fuels is massive, the ongoing drilling, transporting and refining of fossil fuels is also massive and itself takes huge quantities of electricity to do. That’s before the massive impact of burning it.

The other thing we always like to forget, one day oil will simply run out, or become very scarce and very expensive. I think the sooner we try to wean ourselves off it as much as we can the better, oil is far too valuable in everyday life/things and we shouldn’t really just be burning as much of it as we do.

I’m not evangelical about things, just realistic, as well as a little depressed if I’m honest, I’d prefer we chose to do things differently rather than wait until we have no other options.

 

[RustyMTB]

This topic comes up here every time there's a fire & it is invariably some cheapy Temu ticking time bomb killing some unfortunate who thought they were getting for a steal until they found out different. The regulatory side of things is likely to overreact, egged on by the fire service but I genuinely cannot recall every hearing of an ebike fire that had a Trek, Giant, Spesh etc at the root of it. They're not all the same, not by a long way.

 

[Tooks]

This topic comes up here every time there's a fire & it is invariably some cheapy Temu ticking time bomb killing some unfortunate who thought they were getting for a steal until they found out different. The regulatory side of things is likely to overreact, egged on by the fire service but I genuinely cannot recall every hearing of an ebike fire that had a Trek, Giant, Spesh etc at the root of it. They're not all the same, not by a long way.

A very good point.

We always seem to go from ‘another e-bike fire’ to ‘about time we banned electric anything, especially cars’ very quickly.

As you say, there’s a massive difference between a cheap battery pack being charged with a dumb charger to a properly constructed one with failsafes, and a charger and BMS that knows what’s going on in each cell.

 

[steve_sordy]

Hydrogen for all internal combustion engines!

 

[RustyIron]

it all means they will become more expensive and eventually unavailable, regardless of minor changes of technology. The future will be some form of liquid fuel which is more abundant and cheaper to transport......e.g. petrol...

Are you suggesting that there may come a day when eMTB's are no longer powered by lithium batteries, and that some scientist might develop a way to power two-wheeled transportation devices with... a liquid that comes from the ground in unimaginable quantities? That's quite the vivid imagination you have there, son!

 

[RustyIron]

Hydrogen for all internal combustion engines!

Right?
The most abundant element in our solar system?
C₅H₁₂
C₆H₁₄
C₆H₆
C₇H₈
C₈H₁₈
C₈H₁₀

 

[Polar]

X

Are you suggesting that there may come a day when eMTB's are no longer powered by lithium batteries, and that some scientist might develop a way to power two-wheeled transportation devices with... a liquid that comes from the ground in unimaginable quantities? That's quite the vivid imagination you have there, son!

First ecars then ebikes will get SSB and I have never heard of a pacemaker exploding in the chest of a person.

Solid-state battery - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/tech/what-a-solid-state-battery-and-why-are-they-next-big-thing-evs

 

[Mikerb]

What's the problem with CO2 emissions?

The reduction of co2 is what net zero is all about! As far as I am concerned the entire focus on co2 as a catalyst for climate change is a nonsense.......there are far greater well known factors which drive changes in our climate....they always have done and always will.

 

[Mikerb]

Are you suggesting that there may come a day when eMTB's are no longer powered by lithium batteries, and that some scientist might develop a way to power two-wheeled transportation devices with... a liquid that comes from the ground in unimaginable quantities? That's quite the vivid imagination you have there, son!

! know! ......but when you weigh it up there is already known reserves sufficient to last over 150 years and unlike electricity, the means to distribute it from source to consumer in quantities required already exists. Its a no brainer solution to energy needs...........the rest of the world beyond woke Western countries already know! For us it will be a refillable flask of propane...hehe!!

 

[Mikerb]

X

First ecars then ebikes will get SSB and I have never heard of a pacemaker exploding in the chest of a person.

Solid-state battery - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/tech/what-a-solid-state-battery-and-why-are-they-next-big-thing-evs

SSBs will solve none of the logistical issues

 

[Tooks]

unlike electricity, the means to distribute it from source to consumer in quantities required already exists.

Wait, you don’t have the National Grid where you live?

There were zero changes required to electricity infrastructure to install my home charger, or next doors hot tub, it’s the same requirement.

Sure, not everybody has a hot tub, but nor does everybody have an EV so the infrastructure can grow with uptake of electric vehicles.

Most people don’t have a petrol station in their backyard, it can’t be beyond the wit of mankind to get some electricity to wherever cars are left parked overnight, be that home, the street, car parks or work.

I really don’t see why this has become a ‘woke’ issue either.

National Grid are assessing and looking after our electricity network, they don’t see an issue.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars#:~:text=Do%20the%20electricity%20grid's%20wires,to%20improvements%20in%20energy%20efficiency.

There are good reasons for decarbonising our electricity grid whether EVs are a thing or not.

Get a surplus of clean electricity generated and they we can seriously start to look at Hydrogen as well, the energy requirements to crack it are enormous, presently it’s far more efficient to use it to charge a battery.

I work in one of the most carbon intensive sectors around, so I’m not knitting my own muesli and yogurt, and know how valuable oil is to the Western way of life, it’s far too valuable to burn getting from A to B, other things can do that without as much damage.

 

[Polar]

SSBs will solve none of the logistical issues

The challenges are not just logistical but far more complex and no solution of a problem is perfect just acceptable

 

[irie]

The reduction of co2 is what net zero is all about! As far as I am concerned the entire focus on co2 as a catalyst for climate change is a nonsense.......there are far greater well known factors which drive changes in our climate....they always have done and always will.

Agree.

Initial climate science correlated rising CO2 levels with rising human industrial production and therefore interpreted this as causation. Rising CO2 levels do not cause climate change, they are instead the result of rising temperatures*. But the Initial science that CO2 is responsible for global warming is now embedded in the UN and the global good and wise with Guterres as the major mouthpiece. Nice little earner for many.

* The oceans store the majority of the planet's CO2 (about 95% IIRC). As water cools it absorbs CO2, as water heats it emits CO2.

 

[Stihldog]

The oceans produce 70% of the earth’s O2. The rest is land surface plants.

 

[Mikerb]

Agree.

Initial climate science correlated rising CO2 levels with rising human industrial production and therefore interpreted this as causation. Rising CO2 levels do not cause climate change, they are instead the result of rising temperatures*. But the Initial science that CO2 is responsible for global warming is now embedded in the UN and the global good and wise with Guterres as the major mouthpiece. Nice little earner for many.

* The oceans store the majority of the planet's CO2 (about 95% IIRC). As water cools it absorbs CO2, as water heats it emits CO2.

correct..............and the main "greehouse" agent is water vapour mostly in the form of cloud. Global temperature is largely regulated by differences in solar radiation, changes in Earths axis inclinations and orbit, and heat transfer from tropics to poles via air stream and ocean currents. That same processes have occured forever in relatively similar time cycles.............all known by climate scientists........its nothing new or different.

 

[irie]

correct..............and the main "greehouse" agent is water vapour mostly in the form of cloud. Global temperature is largely regulated by differences in solar radiation, changes in Earths axis inclinations and orbit, and heat transfer from tropics to poles via air stream and ocean currents. That same processes have occured forever in relatively similar time cycles.............all known by climate scientists........its nothing new or different.

We will however be made poorer by the cost incurred in trying to reverse something which is not humanly reversible.

 

[Mad_Angler1]

What are you doing to them?

I’ve been using lipos in my RC hobby since they became available, I’ve only lost one to a fire and that was when I nosed in the rc aircraft from 200ft that it was in.

Charging them with the appropriate quality charger and I’ve never had so much as one get hot.

When you do as much with them as I do a pack letting go now and then is inevitable .

The real danger with a non BMS high density lipo like I use in FPV, an example is an out of ballance cell with parallel charging but you can get a cell just go south.

IV been using them heavily since 2012 so I actually think I'm on the good side of number of issues. The funny part of I have tried to cause issues a few times and always fail. They are not as easy to go up as you think even when you try but they will go when you least expect it.

The trick is to treat them like a pet lion. It may be all soft and cuddly but one day it will bring out it's teeth and see you as lunch.

 

[Mikerb]

Wait, you don’t have the National Grid where you live?

There were zero changes required to electricity infrastructure to install my home charger, or next doors hot tub, it’s the same requirement.

Sure, not everybody has a hot tub, but nor does everybody have an EV so the infrastructure can grow with uptake of electric vehicles.

Most people don’t have a petrol station in their backyard, it can’t be beyond the wit of mankind to get some electricity to wherever cars are left parked overnight, be that home, the street, car parks or work.

I really don’t see why this has become a ‘woke’ issue either.

National Grid are assessing and looking after our electricity network, they don’t see an issue.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars#:~:text=Do%20the%20electricity%20grid's%20wires,to%20improvements%20in%20energy%20efficiency.

There are good reasons for decarbonising our electricity grid whether EVs are a thing or not.

Get a surplus of clean electricity generated and they we can seriously start to look at Hydrogen as well, the energy requirements to crack it are enormous, presently it’s far more efficient to use it to charge a battery.

I work in one of the most carbon intensive sectors around, so I’m not knitting my own muesli and yogurt, and know how valuable oil is to the Western way of life, it’s far too valuable to burn getting from A to B, other things can do that without as much damage.

Of course we have a National Grid but it is nowhere near the sort of capacity we would need to enable the charging of more and more EVs and heat pumps. Enlargeing it is going to be hugely expensive and destructive. What you forget is that in order to deliver electricity, a physical circuit of sufficient capacity is permanently required from generation sources to every single point of consumption. It is a hugely expensive way to distribute energy. It is already the case that if most folk had EVs and most got home from work and plugged in their EVS at 6 or 7 pm, the entire estate of houses would suffer a blackout.......or all those chargers would only get a very low charge rate. More likely is that EV charging would not be enabled until after midnight and cut off before 7am.

 

[Stihldog]

Bottom line for us was money. The new Toyota hybrid has saved us between $500-$600 per month. We were both shocked and likely won’t need to add fuel till late January.

Two more EV’s were added to our street this month. There are 5 Tesla’s and two other hybrid’s. We decided to wait a few years before we committed to an EV.

But power may not be a problem in this area. A new massive hydro dam is going into production next year and two more for the future. A lot of our power is sold to the U.S. imo we have/get too much water here …but what do I know?