Beta testing a Flyon!

[arawa]

A friend and I used, and abused, our Haibike hardsevens for 4 years with no problems whatsoever.
A few months ago we took delivery of Flyon Alltrail 6.0 bikes. Almost immediately my bike was out of action for 6 weeks because of a fault in the control panel and waiting for a replacement.
My friend made a leisurely 4-mile trip from his house to mine but when he went to leave his bike refused to start with the message “fatal error”. After switching on and off a dozen or more times the bike did start and the problem has not reoccurred but I don’t like unexplained faults that could return anytime.
Today we were on a remote Highland trail when my bike suddenly lost power with the message “WARNING speed sensor problem”. It was a hard track so no mud or anything and although I carefully wiped the sensor disk the problem persisted. It was a hard slog back to the car without assistance!
My bike shop is hugely embarrassed and willing to do everything they can to help. They are taking up the problems with Haibike but the source of these issues is likely buried in the software.
Our confidence in taking these bikes deep into the hills, the whole reason we have them, has taken a serious knock.
Any other Flyon owners having problems?

 

[AJR]

It does make you wonder why they took so long to come on the market after being announced. Now they have, they should sort out the spares and technical backup. There is no excuse for not being prepared as the bikes took a year to appear.

 

[arawa]

This morning I carefully wiped the speed sensor disk but the warning was still present so the bike has gone back to the (mortified) dealer. His first thoughts are that it is a software issue and I left the bike with him to try and find a solution.
He is going to take my friend’s Flyon back too in an attempt to discover the source of the “fatal error” it experienced which he also believes is a separate software problem.
They are discreet but it is obvious the dealer shares AJR’s opinion over the lack of support available from Haibike.
Although when the bike is working it is perfect for my intended use I could not recommend buying one until these significant faults are rectified. There is no way to fix software errors out on the hills!

 

[AJR]

This morning I carefully wiped the speed sensor disk but the warning was still present so the bike has gone back to the (mortified) dealer. His first thoughts are that it is a software issue and I left the bike with him to try and find a solution.
He is going to take my friend’s Flyon back too in an attempt to discover the source of the “fatal error” it experienced which he also believes is a separate software problem.
They are discreet but it is obvious the dealer shares AJR’s opinion over the lack of support available from Haibike.
Although when the bike is working it is perfect for my intended use I could not recommend buying one until these significant faults are rectified. There is no way to fix software errors out on the hills!

 

[AJR]

The dealer can plug in the diagnostic equipment and it will tell them what the problem is. The fatal error could be a trapped wire. I had a customer who cut the wire from the control unit when moving his handlebars in his stem.

 

[Polaris]

well there's a surprise! This wasnt going to happen after a 20 month delay with no supporting info or data. wait for the flyon 2 peeps, I have a feeling the first gen will be a turkey!

 

[arawa]

I well understand your point regarding the perils of being early adopters but my friend and I could not wait as advancing years mean we needed better climbing bikes now to continue with our hobby of fishing high hill lochs.
On Friday we were out on a well known to us track that climbs 1000ft in a few miles. One stretch is so steep that my 71-year old friend could not cycle up it with our previous Hardsevens but on the Flyon he zoomed up with at least 2 gears to spare (and an absolutely ginormous grin!). Coming back down we both commented how more stable than the Hardsevens the bikes were at stupid speeds as we bounced along over the gravel and stones.
When the software allows, the Flyon really does meet our brief for a "packhorse" and I just hope the update expected this week permits the hardware to perform reliably. I will report back.

 

[Jetpilot]

I had a few problems with a new Flyon straight out the box, when it arrived it wouldnt power up at all, it needed a new wiring harness, there was no lock out tab supplied by Haibike to the dealer, the bars spun round and chipped the frame and imho the battery is rubbish.

The dealer was excellent and i returned the bike as not fit for purpose. They also mentioned out of the flyons that had gone out he said only a couple of people havent been back with problems, yet! (he was expecting the phone to ring any minute), without reading between the lines i understand they are in discussion to reject them. The delays with supply now all seem to add up, i dont think the bike had the proper r and d, testing or back up in their haste to get to market

I appreciate your usage and understand the need and appeal of the extreme mode, problem is, how many buyers of the flyon are going to match that remit for a bike, it needs to operate over a wide spectrum and these problems in its infancy (of the flyon motor'd bikes) do not spell out a successful product, i am surprised how patient you have been to fair, i appreciate its not the dealers fault, but 6 weeks for a simple swap out item, really!!!!

Watch this space i would say, i think this "chat" is going to be a frequent thing over the next few months!

 

[arawa]

I appreciate your usage and understand the need and appeal of the extreme mode, problem is, how many buyers of the flyon are going to match that remit for a bike, it needs to operate over a wide spectrum and these problems in its infancy (of the flyon motor'd bikes) do not spell out a successful product, i am surprised how patient you have been to fair, i appreciate its not the dealers fault, but 6 weeks for a simple swap out item, really!!!!

Watch this space i would say, i think this "chat" is going to be a frequent thing over the next few months!

I quite agree our usage is pretty niche and when not planning to lug kit up steep hills I prefer to use my old Hardseven. I cannot imagine that many “normal” emtbers would really need the power and low gears.

Regarding support. My excellent dealer has been mortified by the initial delays and then by misinformation or just lack of information from Raleigh/Haibike. And the lack of spares and accessories or indeed any information on planned availability. Plus, of course, the embarrassing software failings. I very much doubt they are promoting the sales of Flyons just now.

I have not used the bike sufficiently on longer trips properly to test the battery but, not unreasonably, extreme or high modes do drain it quickly. However, my (heavy) friend has used his Flyon several times on a 16 mile fairly hilly road trip and that has used 40-50%.

I am pinning my hopes on a software update and have written separately (no response yet) to Haibike asking why there is no information on accessories. Hopefully, enough Flyon owners who suffer problems will be vocal enough to focus Haibike’s attention on resolving them.

Ps. Speaking from experience, this is not a bike you want to pedal far without power assistance!

 

[Polaris]

Ps. Speaking from experience, this is not a bike you want to pedal far without power assistance!

Wasn't that another selling point of the Flyon, “zero resistance unpowered motor”?? Oh dear Haibike, oh dear, oh dear.
actually where is that Haibike salesman who used to frequent this forum and post magazine articles saying it was the best thing since sliced bread and “every other ebike was dead in comparison”? Bet he feels a bit of a mug now, account deleted

 

[Jetpilot]

^^^ Let alone the first two modes were like riding through treacle and if you try moving the bike backwards, you could feel heavy resistance from the motor, it really was an effort, no wonder its so hard to pedal.

 

[arawa]

I emailed Haibike UK asking when parts and accessories for Flyons would be available (some ordered 18 months ago)! The complete response cut and pasted:

Thank you for contacting Haibike UK, were are waiting for stock for spares we do have all the parts on order. As soon as they arrive your local dealer will be updated.

Very informative!

 

[Jetpilot]

I asked them about arrival dates of certain models whilst i was looking, as the dealer couldnt answer as they were not informed by Haibike, Haibike said they did not know, contact the dealers, actually you couldnt make it up.

Just to add, its a great pity, i had wanted a flyon ever since i first saw one.

 

[arawa]

Well, we got our bikes back today with many apologies from the bike shop.
My friend’s “fatal error” and refusal to start was caused by having pressure on a pedal when switching on the power. That might well have happened the first time, but we were holding the bike when we tried a further dozen times.
My bike’s refusal to provide assistance was caused by a warped brake disk to which is affixed the speed sensor disk. The sensor disk is apparently very sensitive to distortion and must be true to 1mm. I have no idea what might have caused the brake disk to warp because the bike has really not been used hard or off-track.
My bike also had a “battery timeout error” which was fixed by removing and replacing the battery. No idea what caused that.
Both bikes had a software upgrade installed.
No charge for any of the work.

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

Well, we got our bikes back today with many apologies from the bike shop.
My friend’s “fatal error” and refusal to start was caused by having pressure on a pedal when switching on the power. That might well have happened the first time, but we were holding the bike when we tried a further dozen times.
My bike’s refusal to provide assistance was caused by a warped brake disk to which is affixed the speed sensor disk. The sensor disk is apparently very sensitive to distortion and must be true to 1mm. I have no idea what might have caused the brake disk to warp because the bike has really not been used hard or off-track.
My bike also had a “battery timeout error” which was fixed by removing and replacing the battery. No idea what caused that.
Both bikes had a software upgrade installed.
No charge for any of the work.

Hopefully you are all good to go from now on

 

[Mikedodds]

Well, we got our bikes back today with many apologies from the bike shop.
My friend’s “fatal error” and refusal to start was caused by having pressure on a pedal when switching on the power. That might well have happened the first time, but we were holding the bike when we tried a further dozen times.
My bike’s refusal to provide assistance was caused by a warped brake disk to which is affixed the speed sensor disk. The sensor disk is apparently very sensitive to distortion and must be true to 1mm. I have no idea what might have caused the brake disk to warp because the bike has really not been used hard or off-track.
My bike also had a “battery timeout error” which was fixed by removing and replacing the battery. No idea what caused that.
Both bikes had a software upgrade installed.
No charge for any of the work.

Has the soft ware update seen a marked improvement to your experience?

 

[arawa]

Has the soft ware update seen a marked improvement to your experience?

I have not had time to use mine, but my friend did 10 miles on his yesterday. His bike worked, as far as he could tell, exactly the same as before the update.

I am no longer sure how much to blame the software itself for our problems. Apparently, his fatal error was caused by him having pressure on the pedals when switching on; a message more helpful than “fatal error” would have been useful and no idea why it was repeated when no one was on the bike and we were just holding it.

In my case, no idea what caused the “battery timeout” error. But the power failure was apparently caused by the speed sensor disk being warped – so not software. As the bike has not been used in anger yet but rather treated with considerable respect I have no idea how the sensor disk could become warped, and any warping was invisible to the eye.

What I would hope to get from a software update is more even power delivery and more useful error messages.

In case I appear too negative, I repeat that when working the bikes are excellent for our intended use

 

[Mikedodds]

I have not had time to use mine, but my friend did 10 miles on his yesterday. His bike worked, as far as he could tell, exactly the same as before the update.

I am no longer sure how much to blame the software itself for our problems. Apparently, his fatal error was caused by him having pressure on the pedals when switching on; a message more helpful than “fatal error” would have been useful and no idea why it was repeated when no one was on the bike and we were just holding it.

In my case, no idea what caused the “battery timeout” error. But the power failure was apparently caused by the speed sensor disk being warped – so not software. As the bike has not been used in anger yet but rather treated with considerable respect I have no idea how the sensor disk could become warped, and any warping was invisible to the eye.

What I would hope to get from a software update is more even power delivery and more useful error messages.

In case I appear too negative, I repeat that when working the bikes are excellent for our intended use

Thanks for that. I hope, weather permitting, you can get out on it soon!

 

[Jetpilot]

Well, we got our bikes back today with many apologies from the bike shop.
My friend’s “fatal error” and refusal to start was caused by having pressure on a pedal when switching on the power. That might well have happened the first time, but we were holding the bike when we tried a further dozen times.
My bike’s refusal to provide assistance was caused by a warped brake disk to which is affixed the speed sensor disk. The sensor disk is apparently very sensitive to distortion and must be true to 1mm. I have no idea what might have caused the brake disk to warp because the bike has really not been used hard or off-track.
My bike also had a “battery timeout error” which was fixed by removing and replacing the battery. No idea what caused that.
Both bikes had a software upgrade installed.
No charge for any of the work.

Quite a list of problems to encounter and doesnt allow a lot of room for error if your speed sensor needs to be within 1mm tolerance and to be frank, a brake disc doesnt just suddenly warp mid ride!

I really hope this is the end of your problems though

 

[arawa]

Went for a short run this morning including a very steep hill.

I really think there is even more hill-climbing power than before; amazing.

But, perhaps because it is working harder, the motor seems quite a bit noisier. Also, one of my original comments was how easy it was to pedal the bike beyond 15mph. Perhaps it is just me but I would not say that now. It is almost as if the brakes are applied quite abruptly once past the assistance limit.

Now all we need is some decent weather! If anything further develops I will report back.

 

[Polaris]

Went for a short run this morning including a very steep hill.

I really think there is even more hill-climbing power than before; amazing.

But, perhaps because it is working harder, the motor seems quite a bit noisier. Also, one of my original comments was how easy it was to pedal the bike beyond 15mph. Perhaps it is just me but I would not say that now. It is almost as if the brakes are applied quite abruptly once past the assistance limit.

Now all we need is some decent weather! If anything further develops I will report back.

Hence the desire for "de-restriction" something else i'm not sure is doable yet with the flyon...?

 

[Sure!]

Hi, I really did not like the start of this thread as I am a fairly new owner of the closely related Adventr 5.0. However I was thinking I can share my (so far positive) experience with my Flyon. I've been riding 25km daily since November to and from work in very hilly and horribly "weathery" middle of Norway. First leg of my ride I'm pulling a trailer with a 3-year old in a very steep climb. The last leg is offroad on muddy gravel tractor-tracks. Normally I can get home with app. 40% left on the battery, when it creeps below 0c normally around or just below 30% left. So far the bike has proven very reliable with no glitch. Not one. I am frequently pushing both the engine to the max on climbs, especially with the trailer. I love the instant power from the engine, and despite feeling a drag when the engine cuts it runs easier than I would expect. I am looking forward to removing the winter tyres. I only wish I had bought the SkyBeamer 5000 with it, better spot elks early. And +1 for de-restriction, just clip on a pair of wings then.

 

[arawa]

Hi, I really did not like the start of this thread as I am a fairly new owner of the closely related Adventr 5.0. However I was thinking I can share my (so far positive) experience with my Flyon. I've been riding 25km daily since November to and from work in very hilly and horribly "weathery" middle of Norway. First leg of my ride I'm pulling a trailer with a 3-year old in a very steep climb. The last leg is offroad on muddy gravel tractor-tracks. Normally I can get home with app. 40% left on the battery, when it creeps below 0c normally around or just below 30% left. So far the bike has proven very reliable with no glitch. Not one. I am frequently pushing both the engine to the max on climbs, especially with the trailer. I love the instant power from the engine, and despite feeling a drag when the engine cuts it runs easier than I would expect. I am looking forward to removing the winter tyres. I only wish I had bought the SkyBeamer 5000 with it, better spot elks early. And +1 for de-restriction, just clip on a pair of wings then.

I am glad that your Flyon is doing well and I hope I have made clear that when there are no glitches the bike is excellent for my purposes too. The climbing capability is truly amazing.
I think part of the problem was that after a very long wait my friend and I had 2 of the very first Flyons delivered in the UK (hence the thread title ) and it has been apparent that there was no supply chain in place to support them when things (perhaps inevitably in a new model) went wrong.
Apart from one test ride I have not used my bike since it was repaired and the software updated but the fishing season will be here soon and it will be well used then!

 

[arawa]

Well, I finally managed to get through to a senior person at Haibike UK/Raleigh. I mentioned that the kickstand I wanted was available in Norway (thanks Sure!) and he immediately accepted things had not been well handled and the delay was unreasonable. He promised to ring me back and did so within 2 hours to say the parts had been located and would be sent that afternoon to my bike shop free of charge.
Proper service at last. Thank you Jason at Raleigh UK.

 

[Sidepod]

Interesting thread. I’d posted something here with my thoughts on the power delivery.

Flyon Power delivery?

Ok firstly the bike (All Trail 5) is fitted with a tuning kit. So, selected setting is standard legal limit of 25kph. When riding at or close to the speed limit the power switches in and out but seems very corse ie over 25kph it’s like slamming the brakes on. The power doesn’t come back in...

www.emtbforums.com

Im keen to understand the inner mechanism of the motor/clutch setup so I can get my head around this transition period from reaching speed limit to the point where the motor/clutch seems to disengage and pedalling becomes easier.

 

[Twiggyman]

I've got the 8K nDuro 10.0 and have had problems/issues with it from the first day I rode it. Within an hour of riding the rear brake, dropper seat and gear selection had failed. I also had the issue of the lack of steering lock and the bars spinning and damaging the frame.
Its had a new harness as it failed to turn on, the cassette broke within 3 months which has since been replaced under warranty and I've binned the magura brakes for hope as they are not man enough for the job. The rear lights failed and also fell out. The speed sensor failed and the rear bung continues to fall out, now glued in.
Needless to say I'm less than impressed in the bike or the customer support from Haibike. I had a critical battery error two weeks ago to which I'm still waiting for a response from Haibike. As they're flagship bike I thought they would had been interested to hear of my issues but no told to contact the distributor and washed their hands of, very poor.

 

[arawa]

I've got the 8K nDuro 10.0 and have had problems/issues with it from the first day I rode it. Within an hour of riding the rear brake, dropper seat and gear selection had failed. I also had the issue of the lack of steering lock and the bars spinning and damaging the frame.
Its had a new harness as it failed to turn on, the cassette broke within 3 months which has since been replaced under warranty and I've binned the magura brakes for hope as they are not man enough for the job. The rear lights failed and also fell out. The speed sensor failed and the rear bung continues to fall out, now glued in.
Needless to say I'm less than impressed in the bike or the customer support from Haibike. I had a critical battery error two weeks ago to which I'm still waiting for a response from Haibike. As they're flagship bike I thought they would had been interested to hear of my issues but no told to contact the distributor and washed their hands of, very poor.

Sorry to hear your saga; I too found Haibike support absolutely hopeless and without my excellent LBS I would have got nowhere.
My friend with a Flyon had a “critical error” from stationary and that was because he had his feet on the pedals when switching the power on. I had one on the move and that was because my speed sensor had become distorted.

As an aside, I was so frustrated with Haibike’s refusal to engage that I wrote to the magazines asking why they were not reporting the Flyon problems; none replied.

 

[Twiggyman]

Sorry to hear your saga; I too found Haibike support absolutely hopeless and without my excellent LBS I would have got nowhere.
My friend with a Flyon had a “critical error” from stationary and that was because he had his feet on the pedals when switching the power on. I had one on the move and that was because my speed sensor had become distorted.

As an aside, I was so frustrated with Haibike’s refusal to engage that I wrote to the magazines asking why they were not reporting the Flyon problems; none replied.

If these bikes generate fault codes someone somewhere must have a list of causes to enable the user to try and rectify themselves. I was supposed to be in the south of France with it when it developed the fault and would had been left with no other option but to hire a bike for the four days we had planned. What really annoys me is that you can take it out have a lovely issue free ride, come back clean and oil up for the next ride only for this to happen the next time you roll it out the van. It's getting to the stage where I have to have a pre ride before loading it up. At specialized have recognised they had an issue with there bikes and are trying rectify it, not bury their heads in the sand and hope we will go away, these bikes aren't cheap and require faith in the product to purchase them, without manufacturer support it's hard to promote the brand. Mine failed on three separate occasions whilst out with a mtb club not a good advert for the brand.

 

[Sidepod]

One other thing I’ve noticed, if I remove the bung in the rear drop out I can see what looks like a small white plastic connector/sensor on the end of a wire. It’s not fixed, just floating around inside the frame. Could this be the speed sensor? Should it not be anchored in some way?

 

[Twiggyman]

One other thing I’ve noticed, if I remove the bung in the rear drop out I can see what looks like a small white plastic connector/sensor on the end of a wire. It’s not fixed, just floating around inside the frame. Could this be the speed sensor? Should it not be anchored in some way?

It's just the rear light connection