Battery, is this truth or fallacy?

[33red]

I started Ebiking a few months ago so i read to learn. I remember reading that fully charging our battery than fully discharging it is a positive thing we should do. Not all the time but after a while a battery has less capacity than when it was new. If i understand correctly it is about *refreshing the battery*, allowing it to recalibrate.
First is this a fact?
How often, every month? Every 1,000 kms?
I have been using it for a few months, now 3,770 kms. I had never reached 0% before today.
I did that because i am planning on a long day tomorrow. It is a standard 500 Wh Yamaha.
I am a low tech guy, no cell, no ap, just an 8 YO laptop and a fun bike.
Happy trails.

 

[Borist]

I believe this notion of recalibrating batteries is leftover from times of different battery chemistry not Li ion. Li based batteries don’t like extreme states, neither lowest nor highest level of charge. Keep out of those states for maximum longevity. This info is coming from our team engineer who does cell characterization for our battery systems design team.

 

[flash]

No. You don't need to do this. The chemistry in our batteries (Lithium Iron which is an upgrade from Lithium Ion) don't need recalibrating.

The only things you should do for best battery health are:

* Avoid charging in extremely hot of cold temperatures. Room temperature is best.
* Avoid leaving your battery empty or full for extended periods of time. So when you get home charge the battery to 40-70% and do a full charge the night before your ride. Don't store a battery for extended periods of time at full charge or very low charge. Our batteries don't like being left either full or empty and repeated abuse can shorten their life. Occasionally I have a full battery for a week but I try not to on a regular basis.
* Don't charge a battery that has swelled or if the case is cracked or damaged. This is when those pesky Lithium fires burn your house down.

LiFEPO4 batteries are very very stable and reliable in normal use. They're also being used in campers and caravans as well as industrial applications. They're MUCH safer and more stable than the one in your phone.

I have added a timer to my charging routine, recently. If I use all of my battery I give it a couple of hours charge when I get home. If I have two or three bars I store it as is. I set a five hour charge for the night before each ride. Dead easy.

Gordon

p.s. and what ever you do don't blindly follow the advice on EMBN regarding batteries. About half of it is wrong.

 

[33red]

No. You don't need to do this. The chemistry in our batteries (Lithium Iron which is an upgrade from Lithium Ion) don't need recalibrating.

The only things you should do for best battery health are:

* Avoid charging in extremely hot of cold temperatures. Room temperature is best.
* Avoid leaving your battery empty or full for extended periods of time. So when you get home charge the battery to 40-70% and do a full charge the night before your ride. Don't store a battery for extended periods of time at full charge or very low charge. Our batteries don't like being left either full or empty and repeated abuse can shorten their life. Occasionally I have a full battery for a week but I try not to on a regular basis.
* Don't charge a battery that has swelled or if the case is cracked or damaged. This is when those pesky Lithium fires burn your house down.

LiFEPO4 batteries are very very stable and reliable in normal use. They're also being used in campers and caravans as well as industrial applications. They're MUCH safer and more stable than the one in your phone.

I have added a timer to my charging routine, recently. If I use all of my battery I give it a couple of hours charge when I get home. If I have two or three bars I store it as is. I set a five hour charge for the night before each ride. Dead easy.

Gordon

p.s. and what ever you do don't blindly follow the advice on EMBN regarding batteries. About half of it is wrong.

I appologize. I checked with my owners manual and my Yamaha 2017 came with a Lithium-ion battery 500Wh.

 

[Rusty]

What Flash said sums it up nicely.

Borist was also correct - the old Charge it full, keep it charged full and always run flat is a holdover from NiCad batteries that developed 'charge memory'.

 

[LeeBoy]

33red are you in the market for another new battery ? I have a never used spare for Giant mtb e bikes 2017-18 . Asking half price, $450 ! USA

 

[33red]

33red are you in the market for another new battery ? I have a never used spare for Giant mtb e bikes 2017-18 . Asking half price, $450 ! USA

Thanks but it is fine. On mtbr a guy was looking for 1 recently i kind of remember he is from California. Good luck. Maybe pinkbike will help you.

 

[conman]

The following is copied from an e-bikeshop.co.uk blog from 2013 and I've done it on my bike once a year, that's 3 times. Can't say if it's made any difference or not but it doesn't seem to have done any harm.

Should I perform a full conditioning cycle often?

No, the Bosch battery is very intelligent, the on board BMS takes the hassle away to make a really user friendly battery. Really all you have to do is charge it and the Bosch system will take care of the rest.

The BMS will self balance the cells when charging, it will control everything from deep discharging, over charging through to short circuiting. If you do wish to perform a full conditioning cycle then you can do this by simply discharging the battery completely by riding it until it is flat, then charging it back up fully with no interruptions. This can be done twice in a row to make sure it has fully conditioned.

This is not recommended to do all of the time. Once a year is sufficient but like I say above it’s not necessary in most cases.

 

[wepn]

The following is copied from an e-bikeshop.co.uk blog from 2013 and I've done it on my bike once a year, that's 3 times. Can't say if it's made any difference or not but it doesn't seem to have done any harm.

Should I perform a full conditioning cycle often?

No, the Bosch battery is very intelligent, the on board BMS takes the hassle away to make a really user friendly battery. Really all you have to do is charge it and the Bosch system will take care of the rest.

The BMS will self balance the cells when charging, it will control everything from deep discharging, over charging through to short circuiting. If you do wish to perform a full conditioning cycle then you can do this by simply discharging the battery completely by riding it until it is flat, then charging it back up fully with no interruptions. This can be done twice in a row to make sure it has fully conditioned.

This is not recommended to do all of the time. Once a year is sufficient but like I say above it’s not necessary in most cases.

Hmm I wouldn't have - not even in 2013. Not sure what battery that was so may have been required for 'conditioning' but sounds more like calibration? Running your pack to zero - or charging to 100% if not required - puts unnecessary stress on the cells. Operating in the 80% to 20% charge state range is best.
Only if you need that extra range capacity, charge to 100% or discharge to anything below 20% regularly, maybe 10% as an absolute minimum.

Of course if you need the range on a daily basis then go ahead & use all 100% to full discharge & be happy to replace it some time sooner than you otherwise would.

Most BMS's will balance only at 100% charge so highly advisable to charge to 100% maybe every 4-6 weeks. Does anybody know of any examples that balance at less than 100%? Tesla commences the balance cycle at 93% but that's a Tesla.

 

[33red]

Without a car i just pedal everyday so for 8 months it is pedal recharge than 4 months of snow fun on my fat. I rarely go under 25%. If it last 3 years instead of a potential 4 i have no problem. I save not having a car, not taking the bus. Thanks everyone for the info.

 

[Pukmeister]

Can't vouch for other brands, but I follow the advice in my owners manual (which is to fully discharge and recharge once every three months and put the charger in 60% mode if storing the bike.)

 

[Rich-EMTB-UK]

Confusing aint it

 

[Beekeeper]

The only benefit I can think of for an occasional full discharge is calibration so the power bars on your display give a true reading of what’s left.

For ultimate battery longevity you would ride until your battery dropped to 49% and charge back up to 51% ?. But where is the fun in that?

The electrons do love being at equilibrium unfortunately

 

[flash]

I appologize. I checked with my owners manual and my Yamaha 2017 came with a Lithium-ion battery 500Wh.

No, my apologies. I was being somewhat simplistic. It's possible for a battery to be LiON. Especially an older one. These are slightly less stable than LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron) batteries most commonly used. It could also be that Yamaha just label it that way as Lithium Iron is an Ion battery (As distinct from LiPo - Lithium Polymer. That's probably what's in your phone.). I would prefer to see all LiFePO4 batteries labelled as such but it doesn't always happen.

Either way they're the same for charging and battery health. It's just the newer technology in the Iron version is somewhat more stable. It's able to hold a higher SOC with less (not none) cell fatigue and less prone to impact ignition. LiPo's on the other hand, burst into flame if you look at them the wrong way.

Gordon

p.s. My Shimano battery is rated for 1000 charges. To do that, it's highly likely that it can't be charged to 100% or flattened to 0%. I haven't actually tested it but I suspect it'll be fully charged at around 85-90% capacity and flat at 20%. Normally, the higher you can charge the battery the less cycles it's rated for. If it was at the highest SOC (state of charge) voltages it'd likely be rated at 500 cycles. The high and low cutoffs in the BMS would be more conservative for a 1000 charge rating.

 

[knut7]

No, my apologies. I was being somewhat simplistic. It's possible for a battery to be LiON. Especially an older one. These are slightly less stable than LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron) batteries most commonly used. It could also be that Yamaha just label it that way as Lithium Iron is an Ion battery (As distinct from LiPo - Lithium Polymer. That's probably what's in your phone.). I would prefer to see all LiFePO4 batteries labelled as such but it doesn't always happen.

Are you sure about this? The batteries from Shimano, Yamaha, Specialized, Bosch, etc are all Li-Ion. A 500Wh battery is a 10s4p config with 3500mAh liion cells. LiFePo4 has a maximum energy density of 130Wh/Kg, as far as I know. That's 3,85kg just for the weight of the cells, add at least half a kilo for the casing etc, and a 500Wh LiFePo4 battery is easily 4,5kg. The external 500Wh batteries from Bosch and Shimano are just over 2.5kg and 3kg for the Yamaha. Energy density is about 250Wh/Kg for these Li-Ion cells, so cell weight is about 2kg.

Even though progress is made all the time, and I'd be really happy to see the lifepo4 chemistry at 250Wh/kg, I don't belive that's the case here. The Bosch/Shimano/Yamaha batteries I talk about are from like 2016, and lifepo4 couldn't have been 250wh/kg back then.

 

[Pukmeister]

All You Need To Know About Panasonic E-Bike Batteries | Giant Bicycles UK

 

[Oldnomad52]

1000 charges that's about 30,000km by that time a new bike would be on the shopping list rather than another battery

 

[Dewi]

My Norco VLT battery.

 

[DrStupid]

All You Need To Know About Panasonic E-Bike Batteries | Giant Bicycles UK

I am now even more in love with my Trance.. I didn't think that was possible.

 

[DrStupid]

Are you sure about this? The batteries from Shimano, Yamaha, Specialized, Bosch, etc are all Li-Ion. A 500Wh battery is a 10s4p config with 3500mAh liion cells. LiFePo4 has a maximum energy density of 130Wh/Kg, as far as I know. That's 3,85kg just for the weight of the cells, add at least half a kilo for the casing etc, and a 500Wh LiFePo4 battery is easily 4,5kg. The external 500Wh batteries from Bosch and Shimano are just over 2.5kg and 3kg for the Yamaha. Energy density is about 250Wh/Kg for these Li-Ion cells, so cell weight is about 2kg.

Even though progress is made all the time, and I'd be really happy to see the lifepo4 chemistry at 250Wh/kg, I don't belive that's the case here. The Bosch/Shimano/Yamaha batteries I talk about are from like 2016, and lifepo4 couldn't have been 250wh/kg back then.

Li-ion covers many chemistries


Copied from Webster's
"a rechargeable battery that uses lithium ions as the primary component of its electrolyte"

As long as they ain't lead or nickel... I guess it could say li-ion?

 

[knut7]

Yeah, the ebike battery manufacturers rarely state the chemistry, so it's just Lithium-Ion, as the photo above shows. It could be chemistries like NCA, NMC and LCO. But when we're talking about other chemistries, we tend to use more specific names, like LFP, LTO, Lipo etc. I assume emtb batteries are NCA/NMC, but everyone just refers to them as li-ion.

 

[Rusty]

Meh - just be glad we don't still have NiCad ................. just sayin

 

[Beekeeper]

Meh - just be glad we don't still have NiCad ................. just sayin

Or lead-acid ?