Bad backs & emtbs

[Doug Stampfer]

Looking to get an emtb as I find my lower back hurting too much on the climbs on my normal bike. The local tracks are all pretty much involve 45min -1 Hr uphills to the start. The concern I have though, is that I noticed the other day on a reasonably technical downhill track that I was stressing my back handling my acoustic bike around some tight sections. I began wondering if a heavier bike would actually do more damage on the downhills. I know the answer is to relax & get Zen on the downhills but TBH sometimes I'm just shitting myself getting down some chutes alive and getting too old to learn new tricks.
Has anyone shifted to an Emtb with similar back problems & if so did it make a difference?

 

[HIGHL4NDER]

My bad back is 100% why I opted to try an e-mtb. I have 2 collapsed disks, L4-L5 and L5-S1, on my regular mtb I am usually in agony by the top of the first climb which is about 30 mins or so. I stopped red/black routes altogether and was consigned to just blue grades, even then I had to take 10-15 minute breaks after the first climb to stretch my back and let the pain subside enough to think about the downhill bits. It didn't matter, my back was too sore to adopt decent position, I couldn't send it on anything fun. Almost gave up altogether.

My first demo of an e-mtb changed that completely. I reached the top of my usual route pain free, had way more fun on the downhill and decided to just go again. Did the route 3 times COMPLETELY PAIN FREE!

I ended up buying and haven't looked back since. I've been out and done routes I couldn't before, I'm already fitter and even a little thinner! I have started attacking tabletops, tackling more features instead of rolling on by. I don't notice the weight at all, in fact I'd say it feels pretty lively.

I do find that I get a little "tightness" around the lower back at the end of my trips if I've been overdoing it a bit, but it's absolutely night and day compared to the old mtb.

Get yourself a test ride if you can, you'll grin all the way uphill to the start. In fact, you wont even consider the top to be the start anymore, the whole thing becomes fun!

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Great news bro - congrats. I have a mate with a Kenovo who has offered me a test ride to see if it will be easier.

 

[Bean]

Same here with disc damage, although can ride acoustic still I felt pain on climbs, particularily longer drags more than short bursts.
The emtb does make a world of different, doesn't solve back pain of course but can ride a lot more without taking a day out afterwards aching.

 

[Russell]

I don't have any collapsed discs or anything like that but I do get muscle pain after working hard or even moderately now (builder). I took a day off work this week because of my back, I decided to go out on the bike and had no pain what so ever and felt a lot better when I got back. I would recommend you get a full suspension with 27.5 plus tyres as they increase comfort considerably.

 

[Gary]

Because of the extra weight descending and riding dynamically/playfully on an Ebike is far more stressful on your lower back and shoulders than climbing (using appropriate gearing) on a non-E bike.
you can get round this by not riding playfully at all and simply using the bike's suspension and extra stability to smooth out the descents. You're not going to be descending very quickly if you do take this approach though.

My back is way more fatigued after every ride on my emtbs than it is on my far lighter non assisted bikes.

 

[Maxb]

I ride regular mtb and emtb and my back is not great after years of abuse I find little difference with my back between both types of bike.

What has helped me the most is increasing my core strength and flexibility I have done this with doing yoga a few times a week just following YouTube videos , as an added bonus it's made me better at descending as I an hold a better position and get less fatigue.

 

[Gary]

You know the easiest way to increase core strength for mtb?
Simply not ever sitting down while riding mtb

 

[Clausguld]

The same here I have riding mtb, for 15-20 years and never had problems with my back, got a e-mtb 5-6 months ago, every time I come home my lover back hurts. Yesterday I started on core training

 

[Gary]

Manualling the gawd awful heavy things is the main cluprit (for me)

 

[Jeff McD]

Hey OP, you didn't tell us whether you have bad disks or not and that make all the difference in the world. As you get older you will get stiffer, and your core strength slips. The prolonged climbs can then really overtax and inflame your lower back muscles & ligaments. This doesn't automatically mean you have a ruptured lumbar disc necessarily, but may be simply because you are stressing the lower back musculature secondary to stiffness with aging, weight gain, deconditioning, and a lifetime of a slowly accumulating osteoarthritis of the lumbar spine, which can only be successfully treated with core strengthening. And of course the super intense the exercise, like Gary referred to in manualling, this is going to irritate the tissues the most of all.

There are many ways to increase core strength but as a sports medicine doctor, I favor resistance exercises. Yoga also works well for many people. However I want something that can be done quickly, conveniently at home, without extra cost for my patients. I have found over 47 years of practicing sports medicine, that nobody keeps up exercises indefinitely unless you meet 3 requirements: it must be cheap, convenient (in your home) and quick.

I'm presuming because you didn't mention bulging lumbar discs, and because you aren't describing severe pain radiating down the legs, that you don't have bulging discs pressing on a lumbar nerve root as the cause of your discomfort, but to be thorough, I have to emphasize that you can't definitively know this without at least a medical exam by your doctor, an x-ray of the lumbar spine and possibly an MRI, especially if the core strengthening exercises that I am going to recommend do not bring relief after 6-8 weeks. However, now that the disclaimer is in place, it is always safe to try the exercises first rather than going through the expense of medical treatment at the outset.

Resistance exercises to strengthen your core muscles means abdominal crunches with the knees drawn all the way up to the chest (easier on the lumbar discs and better isolates the abdominals), back extensions performed over a padded stool like a mechanics/doctors stool in your garage (way overpriced brand new but they last forever so buy used on craigslist or tape a small hefty square pillow to a $6.00 wooden stool from Walmart) , with the toes hooked under the side of your car so that the feet are 4 inches lower than the hips, bridges, planks held for one minute x 3 (you gradually work up to this one minute mark), and lateral leg lifts with ankle weights for the gluteus medius, possibly the most important core muscle for mountain biking, performed over the side of your bed. Additionally, you simply have to do squats because inadequate leg strength in the quads as you age will overstress the lower back on climbs as well.
You can Google these exercises to see how they are done.

3 days per week is an absolute must if you expect to see results. Personally I have found Americans are so freaking lazy this appears to be asking the impossible. 3 months max and that's it! Yes 47 years of medicine has made a cynic out of me. Now where is that goddamn tweet my patient was trying to read when I so rudely interrupted?

The old system recommended three sets of 10 reps but that takes too long for most Americans anyway. The newest recommendation is one set of five reps performed very slowly, 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down using lighter weights which helps prevent weightlifting injuries like tendinitis (except for isometric exercises like planks). This builds greater muscle strength than the three sets anyway so that is a definite plus, but it's over much quicker that's the real benefit. Squats with a significant weight are very hard to live with with this method however ha ha.

We doctors have a rather dismal success record in getting people to do what we recommend, and I have come to this very slow recommendation because most people will not continue weight training indefinitely, which you need to be an effective mountain biker, if it takes too long, which for most Americans is no longer than 15 minutes/day. And guess what? The benefit is gone within several weeks of wimping out on the exercise. Your best chance of continuing indefinitely is to make it get over very quick! One set of 5 slow is much faster than three sets of 10reps at 3 seconds up/three seconds down. Slow method equals win/win. This works for mountain bikers but not for people with big egos who want big muscles.

Finally, and I can't recommend this highly enough for mountain bikers, deadlifts using a light weight, 10-30 pounds depending on your age, your musculature and your amount of deconditioning (always begin with a very light weight and gradually progress upwards), with the above slow technique, is one of the most useful lumbar strengthening core exercises we can do. Almost immediate improvement in lower back pain can be seen on extended climbs.

However, this also presumes you are maintaining your lower back/hip flexibility by stretching your hamstrings/ piriformis/ hip flexors adequately. Tight hamstrings/hip flexors/piriformis will lead to more back pain on climbs no matter how much weight lifting you do. Stretching on a daily basis is one of those things that is so hard for people to do initially but once you have the habit it becomes second nature. Practice, practice, practice is all it takes.

Where people get into trouble with the dead lift exercise, and where it's bad reputation comes from, is when they start using heavier weights and rupture discs. Can you say CrossFit competitions?

So give these exercises a try and then go see your doctor if your discomfort persists after 6 to 12 weeks of really, honestly, genuinely doing them 3 days per week. Sorry, cynic, remember? Most likely you won't keep this up very long.

Finally, to answer your original question, yes a definite yes. Before the Ebike I was riding a custom build specialized stumpjumper that weighed 24.5 pounds in spite of heavier aftermarket components: 160 mm Pike fork, a dropper post, and 2.35 mm tires, but still suffering on the climbs with lower back pain because I am older but still very fit and an aggressive climber, with a significant old lower back injury. The pain is completely gone now that I ride the Levo (unless we do the brutal 5 hr top of the mountain ride where there are sustained incredibly steep climbs that will stress the lower back even in boost mode. However on my usual trails with a fast 90 minute training ride no back pain whatsoever. I can't recommend the E bike enough for what sounds like your problem.

One caveat however: I had to raise the front end of the bike with a 17° stem and added spacers in the steering tube to get a more upright position on the bike to completely eliminate the back pain on climbs. Proper bike fit is also a necessity.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Thanks for your very informative reply Jeff.
To answer a few questions or put things in context I hurt my back about 25 years ago lifting a stove & although it wasn't a bad injury I think the time it took to finally find someone to diagnose the problem & set out the treatment caused the problem to become more permanent. Anyway 25 years later the occasional pain is just more annoying than rehabilitating. It is brought on by my manual type job & unfortunately mtbing or surfing. I actually think the pain is caused by tight hip flexors pulling my hips out but not sure which way they pull them out (cat or cow)
I'm a yoga convert & do yoga 3 times a week & look after my body reasonably well. My core is pretty solid but I cringe at the thought of deadlifts.
I guess I'm getting to that age (54) where maybe my body won't be able to take the drop on that 6ft wave or do epic mtb climbs without a dose of ibuprofen in the evening.
I'll take a test ride & see.

 

[BigLee]

Excellent post Doc ??

 

[tedturbine]

Outstanding post Jeff and I can relate to everything you said. I do go to the gym but even having had a microdiscectomy just last October I struggle to maintain the core exercises. This has given me a kick up the arse to get back on it and I'm going to follow your advise super carefully.

I bought my emtb exactly because I didn't want to be straining on the uphills and it's utterly perfect for that. I'm not deliberately throwing the bike around as I ride more conseratively post surgery but it is still pretty fast downhill on the terrain I ride.

Oh and the piriformis stretch was invented by a sadist !

 

[steve_sordy]

Give Pilates a try.
I have been a back sufferer ever since dislocating some vertebrae in 1996. I got by, but with frequent disabling spasms - off work etc. Then in Dec'08 I read in a MTB magazine, in answer to someone with back problems, three experts replied. All three had different answers, but they each recommended Pilates. There and then I made an appointment with the local Pilates class. I have been going every week since the first week in Jan'09. The main benefit is massively increased core strength,with greatly improved flexibility and balance. My posture is better too and I'm no longer looking at a wheelchair!

In addition to the weekly class I now do some pelvic tilts and abdominal crunches every morning before I get out of bed - takes me less than 5 mins. Then some stretches against the window sill. I haven't had a spasm for over a year now (since I started the morning exercises in fact). I should have started the morning exercises years ago, but I'm a lazy sod. Pain is a good teacher and even I got the message eventually.

Many things ache after a bike ride, but never my back!

 

[Rich the gasman]

Great posts in here guys, I my self had had 2 slipped discs and ruptured disc. I found it on climbs I’d have to keep moving around on the bike to release the pressure and feel comfortable. Tried different packs, hip bags etc, all changed when I got my e bike, no more back pain. My core strength is poor and I haven’t set foot in. A gym for years, I’m 40 now and quite bike fit and the e bike was worth all the stick I get from my mates ? as to be able to go out pain free is the best.
I’m going to start basic strength training as as others have said the upper body work out is tuff, plus I need to keep up with my XC champ mate who’s just got his eeb.

 

[Gary]

Yoga is awesome. (but won't really raise core strength all that much unless you do an awful lot of it)

I do a little yoga but I'm lazy and have comittment issues so I basically devised a routine I can do anytime in just 5mins and absolutely anywhere.
Basically salute the the sun x3 (but standing) with shoulder and neck rolls. It keeps me flexible and helps with fatigue/tightness.
And meets Jeff's 3 requirements.
My core is already really strong though from riding every day, doing a physically demanding job and having an incredibly active sexlife.

 

[Jeff McD]

Great replies all. main message is you don’t have to be too aggressive but find a mild exercise and stick with it lifelong. Pilates is absolutely excellent as well. And remember it takes 4 years to reach peak strength with any kind of resistance exercise. Then you lose it in six months if you quit. So got to continue life long.

And what works for one will not always work for another as evidenced by the replies. Oh and another thing it usually takes about 12 months Of religiously performing the strengthening exercise three days per week before you stop experiencing any flareups. So not a quick fix but it’s what your body needs. You must be patient and stick with it and believe in this.

 

[steve_sordy]

.............
My core is already really strong though from riding every day, doing a physically demanding job and having an incredibly active sexlife.

This person you are having an incredibly active sex life with... he must be able to run faster than you!

 

[highpeakrider]

This person you are having an incredibly active sex life with... he must be able to run faster than you!

Felling brave Steve I await the response from @Gary ??

 

[highpeakrider]

All I will say is don’t lift your bike with a bad back, caused my L4 to slip into my leg nerve and my leg is still partially dead.

 

[steve_sordy]

All I will say is don’t lift your bike with a bad back, caused my L4 to slip into my leg nerve and my leg is still partially dead.

OUCHY!

 

[Mikerb]

I am no doctor and I am sure there are a variety of back injuries each of which demand different remedies. I am tall and have always suffered some back pain and as I have aged it is most acute if I do something like digging or any activity that involves leaning over...e.g. cutting a low hedge. When I retired I set myself a project involving dietary change and body conditioning. A major part of my exercise regime involved using weights...on a multi gym rather than free weights which can be dangerous without a helper. My main sport is windsurfing so core muscles are fine but in terms of my back I worked from the principle ( which I think is part of the doctor's philosophy above) of strengthening the muscles that support the spine. The key exercise I found most useful in achieving that was a sit down row. That involves sitting with straight legs and pulling against a weight using your back not by bending your arms or legs as in a normal rowing action. What weight you pull and the number of reps/sets can be incremental but with the same timing discipline as other weight exercises. The principle is that with use and/or age the discs separating the vertibrae may be partially compressed or dislodged but the stronger the muscle groups supporting them, the less stress you impose on them. It worked for me. I suffer no back pain now.

 

[Dax]

My core is already really strong though from riding every day, doing a physically demanding job and having an incredibly active sexlife.

Also explains the massive right arm

 

[seamarsh]

Thanks for your very informative reply Jeff.
To answer a few questions or put things in context I hurt my back about 25 years ago lifting a stove & although it wasn't a bad injury I think the time it took to finally find someone to diagnose the problem & set out the treatment caused the problem to become more permanent. Anyway 25 years later the occasional pain is just more annoying than rehabilitating. It is brought on by my manual type job & unfortunately mtbing or surfing. I actually think the pain is caused by tight hip flexors pulling my hips out but not sure which way they pull them out (cat or cow)
I'm a yoga convert & do yoga 3 times a week & look after my body reasonably well. My core is pretty solid but I cringe at the thought of deadlifts.
I guess I'm getting to that age (54) where maybe my body won't be able to take the drop on that 6ft wave or do epic mtb climbs without a dose of ibuprofen in the evening.
I'll take a test ride & see.

Was gonna say hip flexors if lower back, that was my problem I chased for years. Now foam roll 30-45 minutes a night with one of these
GRID® 2.0 Foam Roller | TriggerPoint

Back rarely gets tight now. Highly recommend it! Also use lacrosse balls to get deep in hip, back pelvis bone.. give it a shot.. sounds ridiculous but foam roller changed my life! Lol

 

[Gary]

This person

Singular?

fucking amature!

 

[Jeff McD]

I am no doctor and I am sure there are a variety of back injuries each of which demand different remedies. I am tall and have always suffered some back pain and as I have aged it is most acute if I do something like digging or any activity that involves leaning over...e.g. cutting a low hedge. When I retired I set myself a project involving dietary change and body conditioning. A major part of my exercise regime involved using weights...on a multi gym rather than free weights which can be dangerous without a helper. My main sport is windsurfing so core muscles are fine but in terms of my back I worked from the principle ( which I think is part of the doctor's philosophy above) of strengthening the muscles that support the spine. The key exercise I found most useful in achieving that was a sit down row. That involves sitting with straight legs and pulling against a weight using your back not by bending your arms or legs as in a normal rowing action. What weight you pull and the number of reps/sets can be incremental but with the same timing discipline as other weight exercises. The principle is that with use and/or age the discs separating the vertibrae may be partially compressed or dislodged but the stronger the muscle groups supporting them, the less stress you impose on them. It worked for me. I suffer no back pain now.

This is a great alternative to doing deadlifts with the same strengthening effect for the all important lumbar extensors, and may be superior in that you aren't leaning over while standing up but rather sitting down which would be easier on the lumbar discs. Good suggestion, mikerb. Never came across this one before but I like it. I'm definitely going to try it.

Using roller on the hip flexors sounds great to me as well. This will work the inflammatory stiffness out of them which occurs because we always ride with them in a flexed position and will allow them to stretch out more easily which is critical again for non-painful function.

Again having optimal strength and flexibility of all joints is critical for pain-free function at any age but most especially as we get older. Both require active exercises to directly stimulate/ maintain the healing process which we are constantly stressing and disrupting with the rather violent forces involved in mountain biking, and all the passive techniques assist in this but are not the primary approach. Reverse lunges are the best strengthening exercise for the hip flexors that I know of and don't require any equipment, so meets my three requirements, convenient, easy, and quick, at home, while traveling, anywhere, 1 set 5 slow reps 3 d/wk for the rest of our lives, cause were going to ride till we drop right?

One patient who fell on his shoulder pretty badly while mountain biking (how about this-riding in the lava field on this narrow trail on an extremely windy day with gusts up to 20 mph. A ferocious gust suddenly hit him on the right side as he paused for a second to get front wheel turned a bit to the left, and literally blew him completely off the bike 3 feet to his left down into a depression, landing with great force on his left shoulder in terribly rugged razor sharp lava) with a rotator cuff strain. Could not get him pain-free after a reasonable period of time with strengthening exercises. Questioning him revealed he wasn't doing enough stretching and sure enough his anterior shoulder capsule was very slightly tight, but enough to perpetuate his pain to where he couldn't sleep on the shoulder at night and was in constant pain. Adding a single stretch for the anterior portion of the capsule got rid of this pain completely within 6 months-shoulders are very slow to heal. But it just shows that you need both strength and flexibility completely recover after injuries.

One other thing I found in my practice was I couldn't get anyone including myself to work out for 45 minutes to an hour doing all the exercises we need three days per week. More effective is to break it up into six 20 minute segments. Monday Wednesday Friday I do squats, calf raises, lateral leg lifts, bridges, planks, crunches, reverse lunges, back extensions over the stool, and neck extensions/rotations using my hands for resistance behind/on the side of the head. Tuesday Thursday Saturday I do upper body stuff. Takes about 20 to 25 minutes because only 1 set of 5 slow reps-and that I will keep up. I let the weights do my stretches after the last strengthening rep by letting the weight force the joint into full stretch several times so I don't have to spend a lot of time stretching as well.

Also found if I don't do the workout before breakfast right after my morning coffee and meditation, I will absolutely blow it off so that has become a routine for me. I will never do strength work in the afternoon when I'm fading fast ha ha.

 

[TtheArab]

Great thread. One comment - with eMTB we all get more runs. For me the effort in coming down (even with analogue Canyon Strive and Giant SX suspensions) gives me sore feet and ultimately a sore lower back. More riding = more aches but worth it.

Love the advice here tho so will try get that into my weekly routine which is challenged as I work away each week Mon-Thu but use a Peleton in apartment to try keep some level of fitness.

 

[Gary]

with eMTB we all get more runs.

We actually ALL don't. I regularly rode longer loops with more elevation than an Emtb's range will manage before owning an Emtb.. I now can't be bothered very often.

 

[All Mountain Coaching]

My back issues have returned with the ebike. I'm sure it's the weight, nearly double my previous bike and playful riding nature. It's a proper bloody workout