Bad backs & emtbs

[RickBullotta]

I'd add one other consideration: as cyclists (eMTB or otherwise) we tend to do most of our work in one plane - and our lateral core strength suffers. As much as they suck to do, side planks should be part of a regular workout routine also. I'm also a fan of balance boards for core stability as well (and doing other exercises such as curls and shoulder work while on the balance board).

 

[SimiEMTB]

My back also was the driver to get on emtb. I share many of the same issues as stated already. Core strength is obviously key with a bad back. I found being able to take advantage of the motor and keeping my back straight on the uphills vs being hunched over like on my analog made a huge difference. Also, a plus bike with low air pressure helped with pain from reduced vibration. Being able to keep more sag on the suspension also is nice/not worrying about having it set stiffer for pedal efficiency. Haven’t noticed the weight being an issue on downhill but Again core strength is key. And of course....relaxing and letting the bike go, plus correct form and all of that. Bottom line for me is that I was done riding because of my list of injuries/problems and can ride again now because of the emtb.

 

[Gary]

I'd add one other consideration: as cyclists (eMTB or otherwise) we tend to do most of our work in one plane - and our lateral core strength suffers. As much as they suck to do, side planks should be part of a regular workout routine also. I'm also a fan of balance boards for core stability as well (and doing other exercises such as curls and shoulder work while on the balance board).

Do you even whip bro?



I wouldn't really consider myself a "cyclist" TBH and already have good core strength so there's no way i'd spend time doing excercise routines or using balance boards to maintain that strength/balance when I can get exactly the same benefit just from going out and messing about on my bike.

Ps. If you really want a work out. Dig trails.

 

[steve_sordy]

............

Ps. If you really want a work out. Dig trails.

I have had a bad back and there is no way that I will do any digging. I suspect that many others may have the same view. I've reached a good place in the last year and there is no way that I would risk it all by doing any digging. I wish I could, but I content myself maintaining the off-piste trails at my local ride. There are no end of brambles shaking hands across the trail, or fallen trees (well, saplings really) to contend with and I carry a folding saw to enable this. Some may call my work "a bit of light gardening"!

 

[Gary]

It was a tongue in cheek comment Steve.

But...
By digging
I did infact mean. Helping with trail building/maintenance in some way. Like you already do. (no actual digging action is required. but if you're fit and healthy it'll probably do you good). If you can ride an E bike you can probably help maintain a trail. (in some way).
We all should.

[Amen]

 

[Jeff McD]

Do you even whip bro?



I wouldn't really consider myself a "cyclist" TBH and already have good core strength so there's no way i'd spend time doing excercise routines or using balance boards to maintain that strength/balance when I can get exactly the same benefit just from going out and messing about on my bike.

Ps. If you really want a work out. Dig trails.

So true! My hour of trail work after a couple of fun, scary fast (for me, hee hee) loops on my trails twice a week is more brutal and exhausting than the ride every time.

 

[johnrwilkinson]

Hi Doug,
Yes, as a lower back pain sufferer, I have shifted to an e-bike and this has helped by enabling me to reduce the pain felt during extended climbing. As others point out though, this does not deal with the root cause of the pain. On that topic, I was referred to a Canadian specialist and authority on lower back pain, Dr Stuart McGill. Please order a copy of his book, "Back Mechanic by Dr. Stuart McGill (2015-09-30)". It is available on Amazon. Dr McGill assists one to identify the causes and activities aggravating back pain, strategies and exercises to assist with maintaining a healthy spine. You will note the are many ill advised core exercises and movements that Dr McGill flags that will make things worse and I think that includes some of those recommended in this thread. There are many youtube clips on Dr McGills process for reducing back pain and gearing up for performance in many disciplines. Another interesting read is "Crooked: Outwitting the Back Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery", by Ramin, Cathryn Jakobson.
All the best!

 

[RickBullotta]

Do you even whip bro?



I wouldn't really consider myself a "cyclist" TBH and already have good core strength so there's no way i'd spend time doing excercise routines or using balance boards to maintain that strength/balance when I can get exactly the same benefit just from going out and messing about on my bike.

Ps. If you really want a work out. Dig trails.

Ha. Real world training is indeed the best. If you *really* want a full body workout, haul a 250 pound dirt bike around on technical terrain. I'm more whooped after 2+ hours on the KTM than 5+ hours on the MTB...

Cheers.

 

[Gary]

2hrs of actual DH (riding time) would take 12+ hours to achieve.
Even using uplifts.
How fucked do you think you'd be after that?
Having done 13 runs of FT William WC DH track in 7hrs.. (1hr 15ish actual riding time) and being absolutely hanging by the second last run. I actually think motox and DH are fairly similar in brutality on your body. .

 

[RickBullotta]

2hrs of actual DH (riding time) would take 12+ hours to achieve.
Even using uplifts.
How fucked do you think you'd be after that?
Having done 13 runs of FT William WC DH track in 7hrs.. (1hr 15ish actual riding time) and being absolutely hanging by the second last run. I actually think motox and DH are fairly similar in brutality on your body. .

Ha. No doubt. It's hauling that 250 lb slab of metal up off the rocks and dragging it back up the side of a hill that adds a "special something". I'd love to ride Ft William someday...jealous!

 

[HikerDave]

Looking to get an emtb as I find my lower back hurting too much on the climbs on my normal bike. The local tracks are all pretty much involve 45min -1 Hr uphills to the start. The concern I have though, is that I noticed the other day on a reasonably technical downhill track that I was stressing my back handling my acoustic bike around some tight sections. I began wondering if a heavier bike would actually do more damage on the downhills. I know the answer is to relax & get Zen on the downhills but TBH sometimes I'm just shitting myself getting down some chutes alive and getting too old to learn new tricks.
Has anyone shifted to an Emtb with similar back problems & if so did it make a difference?

My back is good, but my right-side SI joint is terrible and let to a locked facet joint. I do 130 reps of various abdominal exercises every morning plus stretching. The eBike is what keeps me riding; for me producing a lot of torque for a long time is one issue; the other issue is shock transmitted to the joint. I always turn up the assist to 200 or 300 percent on steep hills. Problem solved; I can ride again. I also try not to take any hits more than a few inches while seated and now avoid the really tough terrain (Phoenix South Mountain National Trail) even with full suspension.

The eBike is a huge quality of life improvement for me; I actually have less pain commuting by eBike than I do commuting on my car or scooter and can ride early on a weekend morning and still enjoy the rest of the day.

 

[Jeff McD]

My back is good, but my right-side SI joint is terrible and let to a locked facet joint. I do 130 reps of various abdominal exercises every morning plus stretching. The eBike is what keeps me riding; for me producing a lot of torque for a long time is one issue; the other issue is shock transmitted to the joint. I always turn up the assist to 200 or 300 percent on steep hills. Problem solved; I can ride again. I also try not to take any hits more than a few inches while seated and now avoid the really tough terrain (Phoenix South Mountain National Trail) even with full suspension.

The eBike is a huge quality of life improvement for me; I actually have less pain commuting by eBike than I do commuting on my car or scooter and can ride early on a weekend morning and still enjoy the rest of the day.

Hey HikerDave, curious as to what kind of injury led to a frozen SI joint? Not that common a problem. Thanks, Jeff.

 

[RickBullotta]

Hey HikerDave, curious as to what kind of injury led to a frozen SI joint? Not that common a problem. Thanks, Jeff.

Can't speak for Dave, but mine's not frozen yet it's not great - and in my case from undiagnosed scoliosis most of my life + a bunch of years of endurance racing. It already cost me my left hip, which I had resurfaced a few years ago. About 9 months ago I got an inversion table that helped quite a bit. I don't see it is a miracle cure, but as a stretching aid. It took a couple of weeks but it did really help with my SI joint soreness and range of motion (when combined with other stretching and exercise, particularly piriformis stretches, hip ROM, and lateral core stuff). What I don't and won't do is a lot of extreme twisting movements anymore. No bueno.

 

[Jeff McD]

Can't speak for Dave, but mine's not frozen yet it's not great - and in my case from undiagnosed scoliosis most of my life + a bunch of years of endurance racing. It already cost me my left hip, which I had resurfaced a few years ago. About 9 months ago I got an inversion table that helped quite a bit. I don't see it is a miracle cure, but as a stretching aid. It took a couple of weeks but it did really help with my SI joint soreness and range of motion (when combined with other stretching and exercise, particularly piriformis stretches, hip ROM, and lateral core stuff). What I don't and won't do is a lot of extreme twisting movements anymore. No bueno.

I can sympathize, Rick. Mine is partially calcified/frozen due to 30 years of mountain bike racing and falls on it many times. For years I blamed my SI joint pain on that and then found I had worn out the hip joint. Down to bone on bone with subchondral bone cysts. Had to have the hip replaced, the other one to years later, and now the SI pain is completely gone. The calcified SI joint was not the cause of that pain but rather a worn out hip.
Kind of ironic in away because I'm supposed to be a specialist but pain in this area can caused by multiple problems. I was still doing aggressive 3 to 5 hour mountain bike rides every Sunday at race pace with our extremely competitive group when I decided to finally do something about my chronic right anterior and posterior hip pain from presumed severe strains of the groin/piriformis tendons years earlier that just simply would not resolve with consistent strengthening exercises. Decided to try the new stem cell injections for troublesome tendon inflammation. Knew the orthopod would want an x-ray before the consult, and was stunned to find the pain was caused by a totally degenerated hip joint, bone on bone with subchondral bone cysts, haha. Had to get the second one two years later. It's a crazy world!
However, I love my new hips. In fact I transitioned to the E bike from my beautiful custom 24.5 pound 2018 stumpjumper build, a bike I truly loved, to hopefully not prematurely wear through the dinky 4 mm plastic liner of these suckers.
The hip resurfacing is only a temporizing procedure for a hip that is on the way out. You need to make sure your x-ray doesn't show bone on bone with subchondral bone cysts nowadays as that is a sign that the hip replacement is inevitable.

 

[RickBullotta]

I can sympathize, Rick. .

My hip resurfacing is metal on metal, and should be good for 15-20 years if I don't do a lot of running. I was actually referred to this procedure (and indirectly to my doc at HSS) by Floyd Landis, who was one of the first in the USA to have it done. It can be revised to a replacement without modifying the cup. I have no activity restrictions and am back snowboarding, dirt biking, MTBing, etc...

I liked the idea of preserving more of the femur. The head of the femur was milled and capped, so any of the calcified protusions are gone. It's been awesome thus far (I'm about 6 years in). I've slammed down HARD on that hip a few times and so far so good!

 

[HikerDave]

Hey HikerDave, curious as to what kind of injury led to a frozen SI joint? Not that common a problem. Thanks, Jeff.

I had a locked facet joint, not the SI Joint. It was fixed with physical therapy but the SI joint pain persisted. I don’t know exactly what brought this on but I went over a 3 foot drop to flat forgetting that I had flats on my bike, lost the pedals and landed hard on the top tube; the opposite side to where the pain started was pretty crunchy for a while.

But that’s just a guess; it might just be wear; I was riding a lot back then, and the pain gradually came on starting with one weekend 20 mile ride. It got worse on a trip to Durango; I drove a lot of dirt roads on the way and the last ride to the Hermosa trailhead was just too much; I broke.

Maybe just wear and tear, though - I rode rigid and hardtail mountain bikes for 20 years plus distance running, backpacking, kayaking, hang gliding, downhill, backcountry and cross country skiing, soccer and walking.

Or maybe it was working long hours for a couple of years, also just before it started. My core got weak and I was less flexible; strong now that I’m exercising and stretching to compensate.

Chronic pain sucks. eBiking makes it suck a lot less. One little thing that helps is that I get off the bike every few miles and stretch.

 

[Jeff McD]

My hip resurfacing is metal on metal, and should be good for 15-20 years if I don't do a lot of running. I was actually referred to this procedure (and indirectly to my doc at HSS) by Floyd Landis, who was one of the first in the USA to have it done. It can be revised to a replacement without modifying the cup. I have no activity restrictions and am back snowboarding, dirt biking, MTBing, etc...

I liked the idea of preserving more of the femur. The head of the femur was milled and capped, so any of the calcified protusions are gone. It's been awesome thus far (I'm about 6 years in). I've slammed down HARD on that hip a few times and so far so good!

Ha, that specific procedure I misinterpreted good for you.

I had a locked facet joint, not the SI Joint. It was fixed with physical therapy but the SI joint pain persisted. I don’t know exactly what brought this on but I went over a 3 foot drop to flat forgetting that I had flats on my bike, lost the pedals and landed hard on the top tube; the opposite side to where the pain started was pretty crunchy for a while.

But that’s just a guess; it might just be wear; I was riding a lot back then, and the pain gradually came on starting with one weekend 20 mile ride. It got worse on a trip to Durango; I drove a lot of dirt roads on the way and the last ride to the Hermosa trailhead was just too much; I broke.

Maybe just wear and tear, though - I rode rigid and hardtail mountain bikes for 20 years plus distance running, backpacking, kayaking, hang gliding, downhill, backcountry and cross country skiing, soccer and walking.

Or maybe it was working long hours for a couple of years, also just before it started. My core got weak and I was less flexible; strong now that I’m exercising and stretching to compensate.

Chronic pain sucks. eBiking makes it suck a lot less. One little thing that helps is that I get off the bike every few miles and stretch.

oh geez, that hurts just to think of that injury. Glad to hear your bike helps.

 

[Mikerb]

It is really gratifying to hear how many people are able to continue riding due to emtbs with what sound like horrific injuries. I count myself fortunate at nearly 69 to be free of knee or hip joint damage (I hope!).
My main sport for the last 40+ years has been windsurfing which exercises practically every muscle in your body. Injuries are not unknown especially at the extremes of the sport in wave and speed disciplines in high winds but there is plenty of scope to have fun without taking those risks.
I hate doing exercises! They are so boring! 3 hours blasting around on the water is far better!

 

[Labrador29]

Yoga is awesome. (but won't really raise core strength all that much unless you do an awful lot of it)

I do a little yoga but I'm lazy and have comittment issues so I basically devised a routine I can do anytime in just 5mins and absolutely anywhere.
Basically salute the the sun x3 (but standing) with shoulder and neck rolls. It keeps me flexible and helps with fatigue/tightness.
And meets Jeff's 3 requirements.
My core is already really strong though from riding every day, doing a physically demanding job and having an incredibly active sexlife.

I am not a General Practitioner, but my limited medical training tells me that an 'incredibly active sex life' can only build up one muscle, and that is as useless as tits on a bull whilst mountain biking.

 

[Gary]

And your comment tells me medical training is not the only thing you have limited experience with.

 

[highpeakrider]

My physio uses this, I should practice more says the man with one disc removed and an S1 disc pressing into my leg nerve making my thigh spasam.

Method - Spiral Stabilization UK

spiralstabilization.co.uk

 

[Doug Stampfer]

Funny to see this thread has woken up again.
Update - had my emtb for a year now. I def realise now my back pain was caused by hip flexors shortening while riding. Not having to grind up hills for an hour reduces the back pain however still a few pangs while throwing it down steep techy corners but lifting it on the rack & over fences are moments of concern.

More importantly I came across AthleanX on youtube. He is a body builder trainer etc & I really click with how he approaches the technical side of injuries. Unfortunately he talks fast like one of those commercials but for a different viewpoint check him out.
With some of the things he has pointed out I'm now quite wary of how long my legs remain in seated position during the day shortening the hip flexors.

 

[Nicho]

an 'incredibly active sex life' can only build up one muscle

Your heart?

 

[RickBullotta]

Thanks for your very informative reply Jeff.
To answer a few questions or put things in context I hurt my back about 25 years ago lifting a stove & although it wasn't a bad injury I think the time it took to finally find someone to diagnose the problem & set out the treatment caused the problem to become more permanent. Anyway 25 years later the occasional pain is just more annoying than rehabilitating. It is brought on by my manual type job & unfortunately mtbing or surfing. I actually think the pain is caused by tight hip flexors pulling my hips out but not sure which way they pull them out (cat or cow)
I'm a yoga convert & do yoga 3 times a week & look after my body reasonably well. My core is pretty solid but I cringe at the thought of deadlifts.
I guess I'm getting to that age (54) where maybe my body won't be able to take the drop on that 6ft wave or do epic mtb climbs without a dose of ibuprofen in the evening.
I'll take a test ride & see.

In the evening? Why wait? I hit the ibuprofen two hours before the ride these days. ;-)

 

[SwissMountainLeader]

In the evening? Why wait? I hit the ibuprofen two hours before the ride these days. ;-)

Ibuprofen and other NSAID’s are probably not ideal for prophylactic use. Studies reliably link NSAID use with hyponatremia and the US FDA say since 2015 that “NSAIDs can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke in patients with or without heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. A large number of studies support this finding, with varying estimates of how much the risk is increased, depending on the drugs and the doses studied.” They also inhibit prostaglandin production, prostaglandins protect your gut so longer term NSAID use causes gastrointestinal (GI) upset, like dyspepsia or esophagitis, in about 60% of users.

For work, I do see sometimes clients taking NSAIDs on longer trips and I would generally discourage them. It’s a sufficient big issue to get mention on training courses, in fact I was running one this weekend and we spent a bit of time talking about this and other issues around hyponatremia, overuse of electrolytes and energy gels etc

 

[steve_sordy]

I used to take Brufen 400mg every 4 hours for a week at a time when I did my back in, sometimes for longer. I never had a stomach problem, so I used to take one 30 mins before riding. My GP advised me most strongly NOT to do this (use prophylactically), She really went on at me about it, so I stopped and only take one when I need it, which is a lot less.

 

[urastus]

I've been taking curcumin; it's in a form that is fairly bio available (theracurmin). It is only an anti inflammatory - it doesn't address pain, although it may address the cause of pain. I get sore hips and shoulders mostly in bed so I usually only take it before going to bed. Recently I tore some back muscle where it connects to the hip girdle; this happens to me every now and then (despite my stretching) so I've been taking it during the day too for 24hr coverage. I don't know of any negatives for this, in fact it also effects other things in a good way too. It might do something for some of you?

 

[RickBullotta]

Ibuprofen and other NSAID’s are probably not ideal for prophylactic use. Studies reliably link NSAID use with hyponatremia and the US FDA say since 2015 that “NSAIDs can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke in patients with or without heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. A large number of studies support this finding, with varying estimates of how much the risk is increased, depending on the drugs and the doses studied.” They also inhibit prostaglandin production, prostaglandins protect your gut so longer term NSAID use causes gastrointestinal (GI) upset, like dyspepsia or esophagitis, in about 60% of users.

For work, I do see sometimes clients taking NSAIDs on longer trips and I would generally discourage them. It’s a sufficient big issue to get mention on training courses, in fact I was running one this weekend and we spent a bit of time talking about this and other issues around hyponatremia, overuse of electrolytes and energy gels etc

I completely agree, having had GI issues (acid reflux) directly related to NSAID usage. I was being mostly facetious about pre-ride ibuprofen, but since I'm currently training for a multi-day MTB stage race, the "morning pain" is actually residual pain from the previous day's output. I don't pre-medicate, unless you consider strong coffee pre-medication...

I discourage use of NSAIDs in general, and have mostly switched to limited use of topical NSAIDS such as Voltaren gel, though that application sometimes doesn't work effectively for joint-related pain.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[bigdaddy46]

I've got 3 bulged discs in my back, for me the ebike is great. For me core strength is key, I find when I do damage to my back is when I get too tired and the emtb helps keep me from getting to that level of exhaustion. Again, core strength is key and knowing when to push and when not to in my scenario.

 

[steve_sordy]

................
I discourage use of NSAIDs in general, and have mostly switched to limited use of topical NSAIDS such as Voltaren gel, though that application sometimes doesn't work effectively for joint-related pain.
.........

Instead of using a 400mg Brufen before each ride, I now use some Volterol gel on my knees half an hour before (to allow it to dry as well as to soak in to the skin). It does the job. For those that have not used Volterol, it comes in two strengths, one is twice as strong but not twice the price. Both are good, but you have to be intelligent about the amount used or you end up losing whatever saving you thought you were making.