Assist level to match manual bike - experiment...

[rsilvers]

I completed a test today that helped pin down the assist value.

Can an eMTB be as much rider effort as a MTB? – Matter-Replicator

 

[TMS]

Good post. Have you tried max rider watts with giant and levo? Can you get the same max values?

And when assistance level was 10 % what was the peak power value? I think it's the number that we should know also.

 

[rsilvers]

PP was on 49%.

 

[rsilvers]

It would be nice to try some Garmin power meter pedals on the bike. But really, it needs a way to be calibrated.

 

[TMS]

The difference in average power resuts can also be caused by different average cadence. With same force (torque) you can measure higher watts with higher cadence. That is why you get the most assistance with 10 % when the cadence is between 80-90 rpm. If you ride, lets say with 60 rpm, the average assistance watts are lower and you have to do more work to keep up the speed.

Cadence can also affect to average heart rate. Even the work you do is the same. Just speculating here, not trying to explain the differencies.

I think too that 10% assistance with about 30 % PP is good to go out with acoustic friends. But I usually take acoustic myself too because I love the agility of 11.5 kg bike.

 

[rsilvers]

I rode at 62rpm for the eMTB and 71rpm for the manual bike.

 

[rsilvers]

I will say the weight has not been bothering me. I adapted to it. But it is a joy lifting my manual bike onto the hitch rack.

 

[Gary]

Sometimes I want to ride on my eMTB with people who are on normal/manual/clockwork/acoustic/old-school bikes and want to experience the same effort that they have

Just turn it off mate. it'll ride fine switched off and you'll experience the effort they are properly.

Assisting it low isn't really the same as evening up your effort with your non-Ebike mates. they simply didn't choose to take a 50lb bike mountainbiking

I have seen people suggest 10%, 15%, or even 5% to make up for the weight and motor drag of the eMTB. My theory was that about 10% assist was needed to match the effort

I thought the jEsus Eeb's motor didn't cause any drag?

 

[rsilvers]

I thought the jEsus Eeb's motor didn't cause any drag?

Whatever drag there is or is not, I am trying to match up for it. I am pretty sure if I turn the bike off, I cannot match my time on a manual bike.

I don't even need to match my Giant manual bike. I would be happy to match an S-Works Epic or some fast cross country bike, and my 10% setting probably does match that.

 

[Gary]

Whatever drag there is or is not, I am trying to match up for it. I am pretty sure if I turn the bike off, I cannot match my time on a manual bike.

you could if it was a 50lb "manual" bike with the same tyres/components/geometry/suspension.
That was my point.
Setting your motor assist at a certain percentage is NOT going miraculously make your riding effort equal to that of a non motorised bike. There are far too many variables in terrain and gradient alone for it to.
The only way to replicate a non motorised bike using an Ebike is to switch it off (assuming you have a motor system with no drag).
sorry but your experiment is massively flawed.

 

[rsilvers]

I don't care to replicate a 50lb manual bike. Those are $80 at Walmart. I would rather replicate a $10,000 cross country.

"The only way to replicate a non motorised bike using an Ebike is to switch it off (assuming you have a motor system with no drag)."

For sure there are ways to do it, and to do it well. For example, I could replicate a road racing bike from a eMTB by calculating air drag from 0-20mph in 1 mph increments for both, and calculating how much wattage is needed at each speed to compensate for the differences in drag, and then add that wattage in under phone app control. And it could also measure the incline that was being ridden and compensate for the weight difference with wattage, also based on calculations and under app control. That would be the correct way to do it.

For something easy, I defined success as "Coming within 1 mph average speed on a typical trail route with the same human effort." The 10% assist was 0.9 mph faster than my manual bike, which was close enough for me, considering that I could probably beat this time on a faster cross-country MTB with lower-rolling resistance tires.

 

[Gary]

For example, I could replicate a road racing bike from a eMTB by calculating air drag from 0-20mph in 1 mph increments for both, and calculating how much wattage is needed at each speed to compensate for the differences in drag

Aye. maybe in a wind tunnel on elevating rollers. in the real world cycling on actual roads with actual wind not so much.

The 10% assist was 0.9 mph faster than my manual bike

An average of 0.9mph faster over the whole route is not the same as climbing at 0.9mph faster, riding the flat 0.9mph faster and descending 0.9 mph faster though is it? not to mention terrain differences and accelerations/decelerations.

You're dreaming if you think you can make your specialized Levo truely mimic the effort of riding a regular bike. Yeah. you can reduce assistance levels to get a similar average workload and maybe it'll make you feel better riding with others on regular bikes. but it's not the same and no App will make it so.
Switch it off or ride your regular bike if you want to experience what it's like to ride unassisted.
If you simply want to ride your Ebike at a very low assistance level carry on.

 

[McInner1]

I built my Stages powermeter on my S-Works Levo 2019 to compare the power data. It turned out that the values matched well, but the reaction-speed of the Stages is much faster when you stop and start pedalling again. So if you often pedalling a lot of varying power, the average power of the Levo drops a lot compared to the Stages.
I mainly ride with ECO 10/30 and in my experience it gives a more easy riding than with my KTM-Scarp-Sonic (22 lbs Fully).

 

[rsilvers]

Aye. maybe in a wind tunnel on elevating rollers. in the real world cycling on actual roads with actual wind not so much.

I would use a drag calculator:

How To Calculate Your Drag | TriRadar

Bike Calculator

Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator

An interactive model-based calculator of cycling power vs. speed

Cycling Power Lab

you can reduce assistance levels to get a similar average workload

Exactly. That is what I did.

 

[Pdoz]

Time to make this scientific - perhaps a bouble blind placebo controlled trial? Not quite bike swapping with blindfolds, but perhaps ask your mates to take turns riding the emtb and vary assistance levels / record heart rate vs speed ?

I predict it will be impossible to compensate for the bored bike factor. Testing for the bbf is easy - just remotely switch the emtb to full assistance at random times and measure how much heart rate increases from the subsequent endorphin rush.

Or , you could just carry a heavier backpack filled with beer? Guaranteed to stop your mates caring what setting your ebike is on

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

At my age, setting it to max Turbo would replicate EXACTLY what it was like for me to ride a bike when I was 10. Piece of cake!

 

[rsilvers]

I am not sure the peak power setting matters for me when assist is on 10%. I believe that 100% assist is 4.1x the rider input, so 10% assist is 0.41x rider input.

If PP is set to 30%, and the bike can max at 700 watts, then the bike can send 210 watts to the motor.

If PP was set to 49%, as I had it set, then the bike could send up to 343 watts to the motor.

So let's say I pedal hard and can put down 500 watts for a few seconds. 500 * 0.41 is 205 watts.

Whether PP was set to 30% or 49%, either would send the 205 watts and so there would be no difference in the motor output or battery consumption unless I was cranking more than about 500 watts (which I don't).

 

[outerlimits]

Who really gives a F if you are doing it easier on your eMtb than your mates on their non powered bikes. Screw that, why did you even get a eMtb for ? If you want to replicate what your mates effort then ride what they ride, a non powered bike.
It makes you look dumb when you say “ I brought a eMtb to ride but I still want to put in the effort of others on non powered bikes” or I ride with it switched off some or most of the time”
Like wtf, why even get an ebike if that’s what you want to do ?‍
Just ride the dam thing as intended and enjoy. Who gives a rats if your smoking all your mates. If they can’t handle that, then are they really your mates ?

 

[Galion]

Interesting, thanks for posting.
Do you like the Schwalbe tire combo better than the Maxxis?

 

[TMS]

I am not sure the peak power setting matters for me when assist is on 10%. I believe that 100% assist is 4.1x the rider input, so 10% assist is 0.41x rider input.

If PP is set to 30%, and the bike can max at 700 watts, then the bike can send 210 watts to the motor.

If PP was set to 49%, as I had it set, then the bike could send up to 343 watts to the motor.

So let's say I pedal hard and can put down 500 watts for a few seconds. 500 * 0.41 is 205 watts.

Whether PP was set to 30% or 49%, either would send the 205 watts and so there would be no difference in the motor output or battery consumption unless I was cranking more than about 500 watts (which I don't).

You are right. My max is usually little under 600 w so there is a minimal cutoff with 30 % PP. But does not change a thing.

And I think too that all this matter if you want same exercise/workload effort as your acoustic mates. But there is too many variables to test or calculate just one right setting. And personally I feel myself stupid when riding ultra low assistance. My Levo SW was not build for that. Ride like a ten years old. That was well said above.

 

[rsilvers]

Interesting, thanks for posting.
Do you like the Schwalbe tire combo better than the Maxxis?

For front tires I like DHF and Magic Mary just about equally as well. For rear tires I like DHR2 or Eddy Current rear. I prefer the DHF to the Assegai on the front.

 

[rsilvers]

Who really gives a F if you are doing it easier on your eMtb than your mates on their non powered bikes. Screw that, why did you even get a eMtb for ? If you want to replicate what your mates effort then ride what they ride, a non powered bike.

I wouldn't use this setting when alone as it makes no sense since once can just use, say 25% assist and still push your heart rate up and cover more ground.
But when with others, if you go on a ride with other people - you can't just speed ahead of them. And if you ride along side them with too much assist, you don't get much of a workout. I wouldn't ride with 10% assist when alone, except to do this experiment.

Look at my Strava feed to see how I normally ride: Strava Cyclist Profile | Robert Silvers

 

[gipsy]

I went for test ride with my son with your settings, SC Blur 10kg bike and Turbo Comp 10/50. We switched bikes 20 times on 15 miles ride and I found 10/50 to be still to strong and SC Blur needed more effort for climbs... will test more...

 

[rsilvers]

On the one hand I may repeat with 5 percent and see what happens. On the other hand I am pretty happy to just know 10 percent is a tad too much. Even if I did more testing and found that 7 percent was a more perfect value, I doubt I would ever ride with less than 10 percent assist.

 

[outerlimits]

O

I wouldn't use this setting when alone as it makes no sense since once can just use, say 25% assist and still push your heart rate up and cover more ground.
But when with others, if you go on a ride with other people - you can't just speed ahead of them. And if you ride along side them with too much assist, you don't get much of a workout. I wouldn't ride with 10% assist when alone, except to do this experiment.

Look at my Strava feed to see how I normally ride: Strava Cyclist Profile | Robert Silvers

Oh, you use Strava...carry on then. ?‍

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Time to make this scientific...

Ok then. Well... it's over ambitious to think that this can be done by simply adjusting motor output using basic user apps. Someone 'scientific' would have to write a complex and sophisticated software algorithm to take into account and then match the INERTIA of a heavy eBike versus a much lighter MTB. Just taking descending for example... there are accounts of some riders discovering that eBikes are often faster going downhill. NOT that more weight makes an object go faster, but that the heavier eBike maintains momentum better over bumps, and takes longer to slow down when braking approaching a corner - but yet is able to be controlled somehow because of the same extra weight spread over wider tyres is able to maintain traction... whereas a lighter analogue bike might start squirrelling. Software scripts may also need to be written to include engaging the brakes on certain moments to mimic the deceleration characteristic of a lighter bike, plus include actuators to re-posture your suspension travel depressions accordingly... BUT, there is no software in the world that would be able to produce and mimic lesser tyre traction due to lesser weight. Then there's increased stability and improved handling due to the fact that an eBike has a much lower centre of gravity because the extra weight is down low. In a manual MTB, the rider is significantly heavier than the bike itself so all that weight-bias is top heavy. In many ways an eBike may exhibit inherent 'unfair' advantages when descending - and motor assist hasn't even switched ON yet.

I'm reading in between the lines here, and perhaps the real issue here is about friendships... because friendships are very important. If you find that your riding mates are unable or unwilling to accept that you're riding an eBike and sense that you are being ostracised... then if you want to maintain those relationships, use your analogue MTB on group rides with them.

But don't leave it there. No one has a monopoly on making new friends. Find other eBikers in your area... and do group rides with them. They'll accept you as you are, motor and all.

And lastly... maybe no one is actually judging you about riding an eBike... the pressure or guilt might just be all in your head. Not saying it is, but if this is the case you just need to chill and reset mentally.


.

 

[rsilvers]

Yeah, there are no other eMTB. I know of three people. One is selling his. One is in another state. One never rides where I go. I started a Facebook group for my state and I am pretty much the only person posting in it. eMTB is just not popular in the US. The first step to changing that is for the laws to change. They are not allowed where people ride MTB.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Yeah, there are no other eMTB. I know of three people. One is selling his. One is in another state. One never rides where I go. I started a Facebook group for my state and I am pretty much the only person posting in it. eMTB is just not popular in the US. The first step to changing that is for the laws to change. They are not allowed where people ride MTB.

I'm fortunate I guess... none of my friends ride eBikes but they all think it's awesome that I do, and they don't give me a hard time about it. They are often curious and so I let them ride mine and they all think it's great even if they're not interested in getting one just yet.

When it comes to strangers though, I do get the occasional smart remark or look of disapproval from people my age (I'm retired). Whereas when younger riders see my bike they kinda go woah nice bike!

 

[rsilvers]

I went on a group ride last month with my manual bike. I overheard the ride leader say "Maybe in Colorado there is room for eBikes, but this park is too small to share the trail with them."

We ride on 5000 acres of trails, and he said that was too small. The next week I showed up for the same group ride with my eMTB, and had my medical ID on the back of the seat, and he didn't say anything. I am not sure any of the other riders even noticed.

But yeah, I am uptight about it - though getting better as nothing bad is happening. eBikes are not allowed there, and a few people have been vocal against them on the local groups.

 

[Pdoz]

Yeah, there are no other eMTB. I know of three people. One is selling his. One is in another state. One never rides where I go. I started a Facebook group for my state and I am pretty much the only person posting in it. eMTB is just not popular in the US. The first step to changing that is for the laws to change. They are not allowed where people ride MTB.

three years ago there were very few emtb's around here either, nowadays it can be an even mix! Don't underestimate the value of offering your mates a ride / quietly demonstrating the benefits. That beer in backpack comment was only half a joke - perhaps at the end of a group ride you might want to nip up that hill for a quick blast? Or better yet, get your non ebike uphill workout whilst giving your mates a chance to ride your bike? Sometimes asking them if you can try their bike for a change is less threatening - when my kids start getting tired I ask if I can borrow their bike " for some exercise" .