Apollo

[Mabman]

Over here in the US there has been a pretty active underground movement of high power eBikes going on for quite a few years. Primarily the activity was documented on a forum called Endless Sphere and all manner of home brew from high tech to wtf builds have occurred over the years. One of the more colorful characters that posted on there ended up starting his own company dedicated to selling kit components aimed at the high power market segment, it is called Luna Cycles.

The owner is a pretty out there person that is nothing if not passionate about eBikes and the faster the better. He has over the years been focused on the next level of eBikes and has made several attempts at producing complete bikes of his design and it seems he has finally gotten one to market.

Luna Cycle Apollo

Luna's main focus are batteries that will withstand high amp output, which is the key to getting higher power output. You can crank your 36v system controller up to 20A all you want but cranking a 52v up to 40A is next level but it all has to be dependable too.

I know this type of eBike is not exactly what the market is crying for but those whoops of laughter from a recent TQ test on here were due to experiencing the next level above stock EU spec power levels and that is where a bike like this will bring the giggles. Personally I have no desire for a 60lb eMTB not matter how much power it produces but wouldn't mind trying a SuperMoto version as with only 120mm of suspension it wouldn't be all that useful offload for my riding style anyway. Also bikes over the legal limit as much as this could be considered fodder for the trail access nazi's to focus on.

It is not at all easy on the eyes but well speced, albeit lacking in the amount of connectivity that seems to be the way things are going ala Greyp etc.. However the Bafang systems are known for their tunability overall. And don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger....

 

[MattyB]

It may look slightly like an MTB (battery excepted), but with 2000W and a throttle that is an e-moto - it really has nothing to do with the pedal assist bikes most of us enjoy. I have to say being carbon with that kit at $5.5k the value is pretty impressive, but some of the component choices are pretty hilarious.... Altus M355 brakes, really?! I also wonder how long Eagle XX chains and cassettes last with 2000w going through them...

 

[JimBo]

It may look slightly like an MTB (battery excepted), but with 2000W and a throttle that is an e-moto - it really has nothing to do with the pedal assist bikes most of us enjoy. I have to say being carbon with that kit at $5.5k the value is pretty impressive, but some of the component choices are pretty funny.... Altus M355 brakes, really?! I wonder how long Eagle XX chains and cassettes last with that 2000w going through them...

I think Luna cuts corners on specs in the areas they think their customers will notice the least (in the short term... long-term, one might assume that the lifespan of people that try to ride these death traps on technical trails is shorter than that of the crap hubs, brakes etc.).

And this eMoto will no doubt be another point of reference for land managers when deciding whether to allow legit eMTBs like mine access to their trails. How are they supposed to differentiate (at-a-glance) between this f'ugly setup and my true pedelec, low-power eMTBs?

 

[JimBo]

...And don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger....

I'll save my proverbial bullets for the mofos who try to ride these on singletrack I'm fighting for eMTB access to.

 

[MattyB]

I think Luna cuts corners on specs in the areas they think their customers will notice the least (in the short term - long-term, one can assume the lifespan of people that try to ride these on technical trails is shorter than that of the crap hubs, brakes etc.).

And this eMoto will no doubt be another point of reference for land managers when deciding whether to allow legit eMTBs like mine access to their trails. How are they supposed to differentiate (at-a-glance) between this f'ugly setup and my true pedelec, low-power eMTBs?

Agreed on all counts, though at 60lbs/27kg I suspect they may notice those Altus brakes after a few serious stops on their first descent...!

 

[dirt huffer]

might be a good city bike with those tires

 

[Mabman]

Any e system is programable to a certain wattage and speed limit restricted to whatever legal regulations the manufacturer allows and ultimately what the end user desires. This pertains to the old "off road use only" gambit.

However if the systems base of V x A is not in sync with the motor core and reduction systems ability to manufacture reliable output without overheating then the more A you ask of a lower Volt system the higher demand it puts on the former and the less reliable the system is.

So although Luna advertises this system as "2000w", which in effect is 52v x 40A so slightly more even, it can be de-tuned to be a 52v x 15A system quite easily that would be 780w peak and quite inline with the peak output of a 36v x 20A system as is being used by Brose for example. And further restricting the speed limit to legal in your country would further allow for a bike like this to be considered as " with the pedal assist bikes most of us enjoy".

But taking nm torque into consideration a bike like the Apollo set to legal levels would have way more low end grunt producing giggles than any other mid drive system out other than perhaps the forthcoming TQ system on the Flyon. And that is because the TQ system is very similar to the Bafang Ultra in that it is a system capable of very high reliable output that is restricted by V x A by Haibikes need to adhere to legal regulations. If you don't think that as soon as the Flyon gets well distributed that there won't be people trying to hack into that potential, well, ok then.

But still for most mtb'ers bikes that weigh in the 60lb bracket probably won't be all that popular, especially in that bikes that weigh 15lbs less will exhibit enough performance to easily meet current regulations and restrictions and handle way more like a conventional mtb. If "wink wink" untapped they will still be heavy bikes to handle on technical terrain and the odd fence lift over.

Here in the US trail access could more easily be inhibited by some A hole riding a "250w" Class 1 bike recklessly as someone riding a bike like the Apollo responsibly or having some legislator see a picture of it online and making their decision based on that. I really doubt this effort will gain wide distribution and easily less than the Flyon will upon its release and I see it as being every bit as much of a stretch.

 

[Russell]

I have no particular problem with the idea of high power ebikes but there is no point building them with crappy bicycle chains and cassetts, they need motorcycle chains and a gearbox. Even a truly gutless 50cc moped will have chain that is way beefier than a bicycle chain.

 

[JimBo]

... Here in the US trail access could more easily be inhibited by some A hole riding a "250w" Class 1 bike recklessly as someone riding a bike like the Apollo responsibly or having some legislator see a picture of it online and making their decision based on that. I really doubt this effort will gain wide distribution and easily less than the Flyon will upon its release and I see it as being every bit as much of a stretch.

It's a helluva lot easier to ride 2kW recklessly than 250W. Luna isn't marketing this eMotorbike to folks who'll restrict its output. They call 250W "feeble" in their write up.

 

[MattyB]

Any e system is programable to a certain wattage and speed limit restricted to whatever legal regulations the manufacturer allows and ultimately what the end user desires. This pertains to the old "off road use only" gambit.

However if the systems base of V x A is not in sync with the motor core and reduction systems ability to manufacture reliable output without overheating then the more A you ask of a lower Volt system the higher demand it puts on the former and the less reliable the system is.

So although Luna advertises this system as "2000w", which in effect is 52v x 40A so slightly more even, it can be de-tuned to be a 52v x 15A system quite easily that would be 780w peak and quite inline with the peak output of a 36v x 20A system as is being used by Brose for example. And further restricting the speed limit to legal in your country would further allow for a bike like this to be considered as " with the pedal assist bikes most of us enjoy".

But taking nm torque into consideration a bike like the Apollo set to legal levels would have way more low end grunt producing giggles than any other mid drive system out other than perhaps the forthcoming TQ system on the Flyon. And that is because the TQ system is very similar to the Bafang Ultra in that it is a system capable of very high reliable output that is restricted by V x A by Haibikes need to adhere to legal regulations. If you don't think that as soon as the Flyon gets well distributed that there won't be people trying to hack into that potential, well, ok then.

But still for most mtb'ers bikes that weigh in the 60lb bracket probably won't be all that popular, especially in that bikes that weigh 15lbs less will exhibit enough performance to easily meet current regulations and restrictions and handle way more like a conventional mtb. If "wink wink" untapped they will still be heavy bikes to handle on technical terrain and the odd fence lift over.

Here in the US trail access could more easily be inhibited by some A hole riding a "250w" Class 1 bike recklessly as someone riding a bike like the Apollo responsibly or having some legislator see a picture of it online and making their decision based on that. I really doubt this effort will gain wide distribution and easily less than the Flyon will upon its release and I see it as being every bit as much of a stretch.

The problem with your logic is not around the specifications and capabilities of the power - it’s the addition of a twist throttle AND the high power output together. Put those together and (as @JimBo points out) you get a completely different audience for the bike than if it were solely pedal assist. Those buyers are far more likely to invest in a bike like this - a ready to go e-moto - than buying a Flyon or similar pedal assist ebike and hacking it.

 

[Mabman]

A throttle has no more effect on motor output than the PAS. At these levels of wattage roosting is not really a thing. It is helpful in certain situations as a walk assist and starting out on steep grades until the PAS can kick in, weighs next to nothing to have onboard and just a tip that a thumb throttle works much better than a twist one.

You aren't getting my point that it is ultimately the rider not the bike that is the potential for issues and bikes as powerful and more so than the Apollo have been available for years already. Will the increasing popularity of eBikes bring out more people that have no respect for the rules of the trails? That remains to be seen but I have noticed that the IMBA uphill has the right of way rule seems to have disappeared, and that is not because of eBikes.

 

[MattyB]

Twist or thumb throttle, makes no difference - it’s the combination of this plus huge power that is the challenge. Motorbikes attract motorbike riders who will ride them like motorbikes, except they will think they can do this on trails designed only for bicycles “because it’s just a bike mister”. You are right that it is the rider not the bike that defines the behaviour, but the probability of a rider who has only ridden motorbikes buying and using one of these irresponsibly seems far higher than an analogue MTBer buying a 250W class ebike and doing the same thing.

 

[Mabman]

While I sympathize with the guy from Mass that is having access issues in his state and those that are in others it isn't an all across the US problem. I don't buy the fact that non legal compliant eBikes with throttles will do any additional harm to the existing problem because as I have already said access to over watt eBikes has been available here for a long time and any hillbilly can get a BBSHD with special sauce and put it on his garage queen mtb and be on what you call an eMoto but it doesn't mean that a motor bike rider that shells out $5500 for something like the Luna bike is going to go straight to some single track and start ripping it up. Bottom line is that heavy high wattage eBikes are not trail worthy. Period.

I am not sure what the Moto scene is in the UK but there are still plenty of areas to ride and race ICE Moto's here in the states and for the price of the Apollo I feel that a motor bike rider will be more likely to put his hard earned $$ into something more like this: 2018 KTM

However with press about cross training on eMtb's being splashed around via the internet I do think that there will be a certain amount of riders looking for that experience but more about the fitness than the fastness perhaps? Time will tell but I have a bit more faith in humanity I guess but also don't see the need for the Apollo either.

One more thing, do you think there will come a time when the 250w class ebike card will stop being played as a benchmark for eBikes? While any eBike is capable of a 250w output there is not a single one that adheres to that number. The recent thread posts about Levo's on version 2.whatever putting out over 700w is a case in point.

 

[MattyB]

...One more thing, do you think there will come a time when the 250w class ebike card will stop being played as a benchmark for eBikes? While any eBike is capable of a 250w output there is not a single one that adheres to that number. The recent thread posts about Levo's on version 2.whatever putting out over 700w is a case in point.

The 250W is the maximum constant power the system is allowed to average not the maximum peak power, hence why these systems can all generate significantly more than 250W. However there is a lack of clarity over how that average is measured - basically it seems like a self certification by the manufacturers at this point. Whether this becomes an issue with the regulators will probably depend on how they are used and whether bikes like the Flyon trigger a rush to higher power machines amongst their competitors; I hope not...

 

[dirt huffer]

I hope @Rob Hancill can get his hands on one of these for a review

 

[Slowroller]

As with all things Luna, they know a lot about ebike electronics and systems, and almost nothing about bikes. There's nothing on their site about the geometry, suspension kinematics, or frame weight. They even spell Maxxis wrong. Like with their other flagship ebike, the Apex, as far as they're concerned, it's got 2 wheels, pedals, goes "squish" on either end and is faaaast, so it must be great. Same goes for their customers as well, they don't have a clue.

 

[khorn]

As with all things Luna, they know a lot about ebike electronics and systems, and almost nothing about bikes. There's nothing on their site about the geometry, suspension kinematics, or frame weight. They even spell Maxxis wrong. Like with their other flagship ebike, the Apex, as far as they're concerned, it's got 2 wheels, pedals, goes "squish" on either end and is faaaast, so it must be great. Same goes for their customers as well, they don't have a clue.

I totally agree, when I build my pedelec I contacted them an they are a bunch of arrogant people. I ended up placing my money in China and got excellent service!

Karsten

 

[dirt huffer]

As with all things Luna, they know a lot about ebike electronics and systems, and almost nothing about bikes. There's nothing on their site about the geometry, suspension kinematics, or frame weight. They even spell Maxxis wrong. Like with their other flagship ebike, the Apex, as far as they're concerned, it's got 2 wheels, pedals, goes "squish" on either end and is faaaast, so it must be great. Same goes for their customers as well, they don't have a clue.

Generally speaking, that can be said for the Endless Sphere forum. So many people on there put high horsepower motors on department store bikes.... I've never seen so many snappend fork stanchions. So many bad ideas on there...