Anyone use Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech on EMTB?

[AlumiPro]

E13 responded to my question about if the SideKick will help reduce the Bosch rattle.

 

[AlumiPro]

All my Sapim spokes were within spec length for the new SideKick, just new nipples and rim tape were added. The SideKick is all laced up and ready for action! I have it set at 18deg deadband for the first ride.
It had been many weeks since my last ride on my emtb, so I just installed a new chain and cassette (1100miles old) and went for a 2-1/2hr ride Friday(w/out SideKick) to have the Bosch rattle fresh in my mind. I felt having a new chain and cassette for a quiet drivetrain would be best for the Sidekick comparison. I’ll be getting the Sidekick all muddy soon and report back with my findings.

 

[megabobra]

All my Sapim spokes were within spec length for the new SideKick, just new nipples and rim tape were added. The SideKick is all laced up and ready for action! I have it set at 18deg deadband for the first ride.
It had been many weeks since my last ride on my emtb, so I just installed a new chain and cassette (1100miles old) and went for a 2-1/2hr ride Friday(w/out SideKick) to have the Bosch rattle fresh in my mind. I felt having a new chain and cassette for a quiet drivetrain would be best for the Sidekick comparison. I’ll be getting the Sidekick all muddy soon and report back with my findings.

View attachment 153138

It sure looks nice

 

[Suns_PSD]

Very curious about this experiment! Thanks for reporting to us and being thorough.

 

[AlumiPro]

After a 2-1/2 hour ride (750wh battery 97% to 25%), I can say that the e13 Sidekick hub definitely REDUCES the Bosch Gen4 rattle. It does not completely get ride of it, which I didn’t expect it to. But at least it doesn’t sound like I’m riding around with a handful of nuts and bolts in my water bottle! I noticed a significantly quieter ride overall.

Some of the remaining rattle I’m still hearing is due to shaking and vibration through the frame/motor when going fast down steep rock gardens. Which is separate from chain growth movement while the rear suspension cycles(pedal kickback) causing the internal gear backlash rattle. Certain trail sections I’m getting up to speeds of 30-36mph…..there’s going to be some internal motor gear backlash noise thats not necessarily associated with kickback…..at least with the Gen4 motor.

I have an EXT E-Storia coil shock which makes a squishy “catfish out of water” breathing sound as it cycles(if you own an E-Storia you know the sound I’m talking about) I had this shock mounted first to a quiet Gen3 Brose/Levo, which makes the shock sound very noticeable(but not annoying to me). When I replaced the Levo with the Crestline/Gen4 Bosch, I installed the E-Storia and forgot how loud the E-Storia sound was because the Bosch rattle was grabbing my attention. With the SideKick installed reducing the Bosch rattle, I am now hearing the E-Storia sound noticeably more again…..a welcomed sound to my ears over the Bosch rattle!

I noticed the biggest reduction in motor rattle while riding mellower/not crazy steep rocky slight down hill sections, it’s much quieter. Which is when I was the most annoyed by the Bosch rattle before installing the SideKick. I feel when you’re going down a crazy steep fast rocky descend, it’s understandable that there will be more noise being produced. But not ok to hear such rattling over the mellower/not crazy steep rocky trail sections.

I did notice the 18 degree deadband (greatest amount) I setup inside the SideKick for the first ride. It obviously creates more play in the drive system, but as with most things you get used to it quickly. On my typical rides I encounter many up hill rock ledges that I have to quickly ratchet the cranks to get up and over. I had no issues with the 18 degree deadband in this situation but again you can feel the large deadband. I have now set the SideKick deadband at 12deg (least amount) for my next ride. (Very easy to do, could be done on the trail.)

As far as pedal kickback/rear suspension performance with the SideKick, I couldn’t tell you……I was too focused on listening for rattling. I’ll be hitting the trails again soon though.

I hope I didn’t ramble too much, and hopefully some riders find this helpful.

 

[slickrock]

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I did notice the 18 degree deadband (greatest amount) I setup inside the SideKick for the first ride. It obviously creates more play in the drive system, but as with most things you get used to it quickly. On my typical rides I encounter many up hill rock ledges that I have to quickly ratchet the cranks to get up and over. I had no issues with the 18 degree deadband in this situation but again you can feel the large deadband. I have now set the SideKick deadband at 12deg (least amount) for my next ride. (Very easy to do, could be done on the trail.)
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Thanks for the feedback.

Based on the comments from the E13 folks regarding sidekick performance with EMTB, they stated the the motor's torque sensor cause the motor to take up the slack quickly so the deadband is effectively eliminated under normal use. Based on your comments this does not seem to be the case. Perhaps the effect is reduced or ameliorated instead of being eliminated. It would be interesting if you slap that rear wheel onto an analog MTB at max deadband and report on the difference between that and the Crestline.

When you do return to test, do report kickback/suspension performance on the different deadband settings. How does the hub sound, BTW?

 

[AlumiPro]

Thanks for the feedback.

Based on the comments from the E13 folks regarding sidekick performance with EMTB, they stated the the motor's torque sensor cause the motor to take up the slack quickly so the deadband is effectively eliminated under normal use. Based on your comments this does not seem to be the case. Perhaps the effect is reduced or ameliorated instead of being eliminated. It would be interesting if you slap that rear wheel onto an analog MTB at max deadband and report on the difference between that and the Crestline.

When you do return to test, do report kickback/suspension performance on the different deadband settings. How does the hub sound, BTW?

The SideKick pawls have a very quiet engagement.
I would agree that the deadband is taken up quickly due to the motor torque but some of the time I can definitely feel and hear the end of the deadband when the pawls are forced to reengage. But there are a lot of variables to the deadbands engagement sound and feel. I’m doing a lot of climbing and ratcheting my 145mm cranks under load to overcome obstacles. Which would seem to make the deadband more noticeable, but not a deal breaker.
I would definitely not want this SideKick hub on a MTB with my type of technical riding, and the fact that I have to pedal up a long distance to get to the descending sections. I’m sure this deadband on a down hill rig would be just fine though, and obviously very useful for kickback.
My mtb is a high pivot Gates carbon belt drive gearbox bike with zero belt growth and zero kickback, set up with a high engagement i9 Hydra hub. This SideKick hub would be absolutely pointless on it. My mtb and emtb both have Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon rear 27.5 wheels, boost width. So if I really wanted to I could do some experimenting. Ideally I’d have my i9 hud/rim setup with a t-type cassette as well, so I can swap it out with the Sidekick hub rim setup on every other ride with the Crestline. That would give me a really good sense of what the SideKick is achieving on the Crestline. I already have all the parts to do so.

 

[slickrock]

...
My mtb is a high pivot Gates carbon belt drive gearbox bike with zero belt growth and zero kickback, set up with a high engagement i9 Hydra hub. This SideKick hub would be absolutely pointless on it. My mtb and emtb both have Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon rear 27.5 wheels, boost width. So if I really wanted to I could do some experimenting. Ideally I’d have my i9 hud/rim setup with a t-type cassette as well, so I can swap it out with the Sidekick hub rim setup on every other ride with the Crestline. That would give me a really good sense of what the SideKick is achieving on the Crestline. I already have all the parts to do so.

OK, now you got me really curious about your gearbox MTB. Not too many bikes have zero belt growth out there (or zero chain growth for that matter) - it would require a concentric pivot. Might it be an Cavaliere Anakin or similar with a Effigear gearbox?

 

[AlumiPro]

Frame/gearbox only dream build; 2024/2025 176mm/190mm travel Cavalerie Anakin V2. It checked every box on my list, and then some! No chainring or derailleur to get smacked, no chain to oil, low maintenance, no pedal kickback, no goofy tensioner, quiet drivetrain, SRAM trigger shifter, able to shift to any gear without pedaling, raw aluminum frame, long travel, very well balanced weight and geo, ……I think that’s about everything that really set it apart from the rest for me. It’s an absolute blast to ride and a real head turner. I’m really enjoying it. The Crestline had some dust build up on it after I completed the Anakin V2 build.
I’m REALLY looking forward to the day I get a long travel belt drive gearbox(NO wrist twist shifter) emtb!…..Basically an Anakin V2 with a built in motor and battery would be insanely awesome!
Cavalerie is in test phases with there new Effigear emtb.(attached pic) But good grief the gearbox/motor is huge!(because they’re two separate units joined together) Unfortunately the output shaft is at the cranks, unlike the Anakin. It’s also a chain drive with a tensioner……not what I’m looking for in my next emtb unfortunately.

 

[slickrock]

Frame/gearbox only dream build; 2024/2025 176mm/190mm travel Cavalerie Anakin V2. It checked every box on my list, and then some! No chainring or derailleur to get smacked, no chain to oil, low maintenance, no pedal kickback, no goofy tensioner, quiet drivetrain, SRAM trigger shifter, able to shift to any gear without pedaling, raw aluminum frame, long travel, very well balanced weight and geo, ……I think that’s about everything that really set it apart from the rest for me. It’s an absolute blast to ride and a real head turner. I’m really enjoying it. The Crestline had some dust build up on it after I completed the Anakin V2 build.
I’m REALLY looking forward to the day I get a long travel belt drive gearbox(NO wrist twist shifter) emtb!…..Basically an Anakin V2 with a built in motor and battery would be insanely awesome!
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Dude, we need to talk. I've been seriously jonesing for the Anakin v2.2 for EXACTLY every thing you mentioned and been lamenting about an EMTB alternative just the same. That French bike you have is a very rare bird out here, and I would very much like to throw a leg over one or at least discuss configuration choices. I'm in California as well - expect a PM.

If firmly believe that a concentric axle path rear suspension is only true way to fully eliminate suspension activated kickback, and add a gearbox in the mix to top off all other advantages your mentioned. I feel the original Effigear gearbox design (with elevated drivetrain separated from the pedal-train) is a perfect high-pivot solution and really hoped that design would have made its way into Effigear's planned MGU, but oh well. My dream machine would be a DGI CVT MGU with built-in elevated drivetrain mated to a concentric elevated swingarm rear suspension, long travel (enduro, downduro) bike.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.