Anyone use Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech on EMTB?

[slickrock]

In the last year there has been a surge in use anti-pedal kickback components to provide significant improvements in suspension feel, travel utilization, chain slap, and overall reduction pedal kickback on MTBs (mostly downhill bikes, but trending into enduro), especially on bikes that don't use idler gears or have high anti-squat suspension designs. I'm primarily referring to:

• O-Chain chainrings (or similar) that use elastomers to provide a degree of disengagement float
• and the E13 Sidekick or Tairin S1/Shogun hubs that provide a consistent drive disengagement deadband. The prior got Pinkbike Innovation of the Year award (over even the DGI motor if you can believe) and their performance claims are borderline transformative.

While I have not used these components, I'd be curious if any of you have, either MTB or EMTB , and to get your opinions on this tech? I get a sense that perhaps this tech may or may not work EMTB, since with various motors have internal freewheel designs and some may prevent reverse rotation or have motor torque characteristics that may take up chain slack or dynamically respond to pedal kickback.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure how much pedal kickback is really a concern for EMTBs as it seems it doesn't come up in the forum. Perhaps the sprung to unsprung weight ratio is high enough that this attenuates the feel compared to MTBs, but then again there are a number of idler gear EMTBS out there, including the Slash+ (Pinkbike favorite) and soon the Forbidden models sporting idlers and DGI's. That said, it would be good compare and contrast some setups. What do you think Rob?

 

[megabobra]

In the last year there has been a surge in use anti-pedal kickback components to provide significant improvements in suspension feel, travel utilization, chain slap, and overall reduction pedal kickback on MTBs (mostly downhill bikes, but trending into enduro), especially on bikes that don't use idler gears or have high anti-squat suspension designs. I'm primarily referring to:

• O-Chain chainrings (or similar) that use elastomers to provide a degree of disengagement float
• and the E13 Sidekick or Tairin S1/Shogun hubs that provide a consistent drive disengagement deadband. The prior got Pinkbike Innovation of the Year award (over even the DGI motor if you can believe) and their performance claims are borderline transformative.

While I have not used these components, I'd be curious if any of you have, either MTB or EMTB , and to get your opinions on this tech? I get a sense that perhaps this tech may or may not work EMTB, since with various motors have internal freewheel designs and some may prevent reverse rotation or have motor torque characteristics that may take up chain slack or dynamically respond to pedal kickback.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure how much pedal kickback is really a concern for EMTBs as it seems it doesn't come up in the forum. Perhaps the sprung to unsprung weight ratio is high enough that this attenuates the feel compared to MTBs, but then again there are a number of idler gear EMTBS out there, including the Slash+ (Pinkbike favorite) and soon the Forbidden models sporting idlers and DGI's. That said, it would be good compare and contrast some setups. What do you think Rob?

I'd been wondering if the Sidekick hub would be a good bandaid for motor rattle... I've been meaning to do a quick run without a chain fitted to get an idea as to to how much (if any) of the rattle is removed. Given the rattle is specifically from that pedal kickback, I was hoping for good results? If so, I might look into the Sidekick when I need a new rear wheel.

 

[Robstyle]

I run an ochain on my bosch motor.
The reasoning behind trying was I went from a cheap low engagement rear hub to an i9 hydra. Not by choice, that was just what came on the used wheelset I bought.
Anyway, I noticed straight away the kickback that hub induced and I didn't like it. Especially under brakes going down steeps with repeated ledges or square hits.
Ochain solved that, it's better under the same situation now. They do require upkeep to stay crisp and free moving though.

But yes does what it says on the tin, I've actually got one to go on my dh bike too. It actually has an idler but I've still felt kickback at times and I've run it chain less for a day after destroying my udh so you know there's some gains to be had. You have to be riding pretty rough stuff to feel it, but there's definitely something there.

 

[alleeex]

I wanted an O-Chain for my Kenevo SL but they don’t make them for that motor. The e13 hub is next on my list but I want a few more long-term reviews first as e13 and moving components haven’t historically gone well .

IME, the KSL suffers quite badly from pedal kickback on big cases and hard drops to flat — on one memorable occasion I thought it had actually broken my ankle!

 

[irie]

Whatever this is, if it's shiny and expensive it will sell well, especially if there are many colour choices.

 

[Stihldog]

It was explained to me, by someone on this forum, that the POE is determined by the gears in the motor, not the shiny new hub. I don’t know what the numbers are but the Bosch CX motor is noticeable. The TQ motor is not.
I never experienced kick-back …but I have had a shin strike.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I run an ochain on my bosch motor.
The reasoning behind trying was I went from a cheap low engagement rear hub to an i9 hydra. Not by choice, that was just what came on the used wheelset I bought.
Anyway, I noticed straight away the kickback that hub induced and I didn't like it. Especially under brakes going down steeps with repeated ledges or square hits.
Ochain solved that, it's better under the same situation now. They do require upkeep to stay crisp and free moving though.

But yes does what it says on the tin, I've actually got one to go on my dh bike too. It actually has an idler but I've still felt kickback at times and I've run it chain less for a day after destroying my udh so you know there's some gains to be had. You have to be riding pretty rough stuff to feel it, but there's definitely something there.

It's an interesting topic but I'm not sure how much is actually PK (obviously varies by bike) and how much is just a 400-gram chain whipping around.

Here is what E-13 says about their hubs when on an e-bike: https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en...-Are-Sidekick-s-benefits-the-same-for-e-bikes

"Yes, Sidekick hubs are compatible with all Class-1 e-bikes; there are additional benefits for e-bike riders!

E-bikes experience the same kickback effect as any full-suspension bike, the difference being that spikes in chain tension will be loaded into the motor, rather than feeding directly into the cranks and pedals. While this chain force typically wouldn’t be felt by the rider at the pedals, the negative effects on suspension performance are the same.

Since e-bike motors operate with a torque sensor, the rider can use the highest deadband setting and still experience quick engagement of the rear hub. The motor will turn the chainring faster than the rider turns the cranks, more quickly taking up any slack in the chain.

As an added benefit, chain vibration can cause a significant amount of noise with certain ebike motors, such as Shimano EP8 or Bosch CX motors with internal counter-acting clutches. On these bikes, Sidekick can significantly reduce or even eliminate this noise."

Me, I've decided to skip the whole mess and just buy either the E-druid or the Rocky Mountain Instinct e-bikes, in large part because of the high pivot. Given RM's financial difficulties I'm mostly waiting for the E-druid while watching the used classifieds for the RM.

 

[RustyIron]

Whether it's cars, health care, kitchen appliances, or mountain bikes, it seems like there's always some jokers sitting in an office with whiteboards and slide rules who are devising ways to get us to part with our hard earned cash. Do these contraptions make a difference on paper? Yeah. Will it make a difference for ME? I don't know. But until I see some GOOD riders, who are not being paid to shill a protuct, running any of these newfangled gadgets, I'll stick with what I know.

 

[slickrock]

It's an interesting topic but I'm not sure how much is actually PK (obviously varies by bike) and how much is just a 400-gram chain whipping around.

Here is what E-13 says about their hubs when on an e-bike: https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en...-Are-Sidekick-s-benefits-the-same-for-e-bikes

"Yes, Sidekick hubs are compatible with all Class-1 e-bikes; there are additional benefits for e-bike riders!

E-bikes experience the same kickback effect as any full-suspension bike, the difference being that spikes in chain tension will be loaded into the motor, rather than feeding directly into the cranks and pedals. While this chain force typically wouldn’t be felt by the rider at the pedals, the negative effects on suspension performance are the same.

Since e-bike motors operate with a torque sensor, the rider can use the highest deadband setting and still experience quick engagement of the rear hub. The motor will turn the chainring faster than the rider turns the cranks, more quickly taking up any slack in the chain.

As an added benefit, chain vibration can cause a significant amount of noise with certain ebike motors, such as Shimano EP8 or Bosch CX motors with internal counter-acting clutches. On these bikes, Sidekick can significantly reduce or even eliminate this noise."

Me, I've decided to skip the whole mess and just buy either the E-druid or the Rocky Mountain Instinct e-bikes, in large part because of the high pivot. Given RM's financial difficulties I'm mostly waiting for the E-druid while watching the used classifieds for the RM.

I've looked more into this since my OP and I think your find is spot on. Rather than complicating motor interaction, it ameliorates the problem of take-up on level ground and more important on steep uphills - Basically getting your cake and eating it too. And you get a quieter motor for those that tend to rattle. Just set the Ochain or Sidekick to max float without downsides (at least conceptually).

Also, whether or not kickpack can be felt, it doesn't take away from the fact that kickback counteracts suspension movement and it is actually happening. Running your bike without a chain on a downhill would be the real test and baseline. Actually, tuning your shock FOR a chainless downhill ride would be the ultimate baseline, as it would be the maximum performance you could extract from your bike's suspension design. And the effect would be most pronounced with suspension designs that prioritize high anti-squat that don't counteract kickback with idlers, dual chains, and other techniques. IOW, the suspensions that aren't typical on downhill bikes.

Following Rob's EMTB evolution path, it seems his proclivity is towards full power motors, slack geometry, and longer and longer travel, tending towards downhill (downduro?) geo. After all, the higher sprung to unsprung weight ratio of FP EMTBs make them a delight on downhills. So if the vector is pointing this way, it would seem pedal-kickback concerns should start to get more mindshare here. The fact that this tech is getting traction in the analog space, without the benefits from motor torque control, is in a way more compelling, but then again, this could be just a fad, especially If you start seeing this tech on XC bikes. But on long travel downhillish steeds, where EMTBs tend to inhabit and shine, this tech may have some future sway.

 

[irie]

I've looked more into this since my OP and I think your find is spot on. Rather than complicating motor interaction, it ameliorates the problem of take-up on level ground and more important on steep uphills - Basically getting your cake and eating it too. And you get a quieter motor for those that tend to rattle. Just set the Ochain or Sidekick to max float without downsides (at least conceptually).

Also, whether or not kickpack can be felt, it doesn't take away from the fact that kickback counteracts suspension movement and it is actually happening. Running your bike without a chain on a downhill would be the real test and baseline. Actually, tuning your shock FOR a chainless downhill ride would be the ultimate baseline, as it would be the maximum performance you could extract from your bike's suspension design. And the effect would be most pronounced with suspension designs that prioritize high anti-squat that don't counteract kickback with idlers, dual chains, and other techniques. IOW, the suspensions that aren't typical on downhill bikes.

Following Rob's EMTB evolution path, it seems his proclivity is towards full power motors, slack geometry, and longer and longer travel, tending towards downhill (downduro?) geo. After all, the higher sprung to unsprung weight ratio of FP EMTBs make them a delight on downhills. So if the vector is pointing this way, it would seem pedal-kickback concerns should start to get more mindshare here. The fact that this tech is getting traction in the analog space, without the benefits from motor torque control, is in a way more compelling, but then again, this could be just a fad, especially If you start seeing this tech on XC bikes. But on long travel downhillish steeds, where EMTBs tend to inhabit and shine, this tech may have some future sway.

Given all the above and previous caveats, does currently appear to be a solution looking for a problem.

 

[alleeex]

<snip>
Running your bike without a chain on a downhill would be the real test and baseline
</snip>

A snapped chain at the top of the mountain is what made me realise how bad the pedal kickback is on the KSL - it is a delight to ride chainless and felt so much better everywhere.

I suppose it could’ve been the placebo effect but I was absolutely raging (snapped chain was a brand new SRAM XX flattop chain with less than 6 miles on it) and had never even considered riding chainless or anything about pedal kickback.

 

[Robstyle]

It wasn't a placebo. Chain less feels amazing haha.
Everyone can try it for free too and by your own choice

I was a skeptic before am not now. Not interested in the hub though, she heavy.

 

[slickrock]

A snapped chain at the top of the mountain is what made me realise how bad the pedal kickback is on the KSL - it is a delight to ride chainless and felt so much better everywhere.

I suppose it could’ve been the placebo effect but I was absolutely raging (snapped chain was a brand new SRAM XX flattop chain with less than 6 miles on it) and had never even considered riding chainless or anything about pedal kickback.

This is exactly it what I'm talking about. You don't really know how kickpack is affecting the suspension until you kill it. I have a Sonni and I sense it has a some more kickback than I remember when I had the Voima (although Sonni has markedly less brake squat comparatively). I think I'm going to take the plunge, at least with an a 12 degree OChain, as I'm working on converting the rear hub to an IGH.

...
I was a skeptic before am not now. Not interested in the hub though, she heavy.

Take a look at the Tairin Silent Shogun and S1 hubs which have up to 9 and 15 degrees of constant floating engagement, which are over a 100g to 130g lighter than the Sidekick, and even lighter still if you you choose the aluminum axles. A niche player though and float is fixed.

 

[2stroked]

Bought an O Chain for my Intense and it made a noticeable difference in kick back, feels smoother now. I thought I was bottoming the suspension now I don’t feel it at all anymore

 

[Suns_PSD]

It wasn't a placebo. Chain less feels amazing haha.
Everyone can try it for free too and by your own choice

I was a skeptic before am not now. Not interested in the hub though, she heavy.

I too broke a chain on my Relay, but I wasn't at a lift park or anything. I just had about 150 meters of medium downhill terrain, followed by a long push back to the car.

That said, I was determined to get as much momentum for the next hill as possible so bombed it (chainless) and there was a real difference, right in my feet, on my e-bike. The bike tracked a bit better.

That said, a few points:
1) What if what I felt was just the lack of chain weight flopping about and had nothing to do with PK?
2) It was nice but was not a huge difference for me. I'd say the rear suspension was 10-15% smoother & more reactive feeling. Enough to definitely notice, but not enough for me to go 'oh wow, that really improved my speed.

That said, maybe all of this PK talk has gotten in my head, but I've really began to notice lately that my Avalanche Racing hybrid front fork is notably smoother and 'free-er' feeling than the rear coil Avalanche Racing rear shock which mildly locks up/ snags as I head down my very chunder filled trails. Like it needs less HSC (it's not adjustable) or something.

 

[Stormy 107]

It's an interesting topic but I'm not sure how much is actually PK (obviously varies by bike) and how much is just a 400-gram chain whipping around.

Here is what E-13 says about their hubs when on an e-bike: https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en...-Are-Sidekick-s-benefits-the-same-for-e-bikes

"Yes, Sidekick hubs are compatible with all Class-1 e-bikes; there are additional benefits for e-bike riders!

E-bikes experience the same kickback effect as any full-suspension bike, the difference being that spikes in chain tension will be loaded into the motor, rather than feeding directly into the cranks and pedals. While this chain force typically wouldn’t be felt by the rider at the pedals, the negative effects on suspension performance are the same.

Since e-bike motors operate with a torque sensor, the rider can use the highest deadband setting and still experience quick engagement of the rear hub. The motor will turn the chainring faster than the rider turns the cranks, more quickly taking up any slack in the chain.

As an added benefit, chain vibration can cause a significant amount of noise with certain ebike motors, such as Shimano EP8 or Bosch CX motors with internal counter-acting clutches. On these bikes, Sidekick can significantly reduce or even eliminate this noise."

Me, I've decided to skip the whole mess and just buy either the E-druid or the Rocky Mountain Instinct e-bikes, in large part because of the high pivot. Given RM's financial difficulties I'm mostly waiting for the E-druid while watching the used classifieds for the RM.

Rocky mountains are going at 50% at Paul's cycles in the UK.

 

[Robstyle]

@Suns_PSD , yeah that's another thing with an ochain is that you're really able to isolate suspension performance.

PK or chain whip are tricky things to tell apart for sure. Dropping unsrung weight makes a huge difference too. Way more than I thought.

 

[slickrock]

@Suns_PSD , yeah that's another thing with an ochain is that you're really able to isolate suspension performance.

PK or chain whip are tricky things to tell apart for sure. Dropping unsrung weight makes a huge difference too. Way more than I thought.

This unsprung weight callout is what got me on this topic in the first place. Going with lighter hubs , wheels, and spokes helps, but dumping the rear drivetrain really helps, like with gearbox MTBs and Pinion MGU setups -the only things holding these bikes back is kickback. Alas, I'm going the opposite way with plans to add a heavy IGH rear hub with belt drive to my ebike, where I just know that will affect the kinematics of the suspension. I would compensate by backing compression and rebound damping off the rear shock and maybe reshim, but I'll need extra help from suspension unshackling tech like Ochain to ameliorate the unsprung weight change.

 

[Robstyle]

I managed to drop 400gms of weight of my dh bike. It's a long story, but I used to run t-type on it. Was to be able to hot swap wheels with my ebike in case of flats etc.
Anyway went to XO1 7spd with an og axs derailleur with med cage, it saves a shit load of weight. The difference in suspension performance was crazy. It was like someone had swapped a different shock in. It's so dramatic I'm looking at throwing t-type in the bin and going full xtr on my ebike and I really hate cables!

 

[AlumiPro]

This support info is posted on the E13 site.(see below screenshot)
I just ordered a Sidekick which will be laced to my Crank Brother Synthesis carbon wheel mounted to my Crestline. I’ll update if it does indeed help remove the descending rattle of the Bosch CX Race motor.
E13 is 3hrs away from me, so it shouldn’t take long to get.

 

[alleeex]

This support info is posted on the E13 site.(see below screenshot)
I just ordered a Sidekick which will be laced to my Crank Brother Synthesis carbon wheel mounted to my Crestline. I’ll update if it does indeed help remove the descending rattle of the Bosch CX Race motor.
E13 is 3hrs away from me, so it shouldn’t take long to get.

View attachment 152765

I’m super interested to hear how you get on with the e13 hub and also if you have any reliability issues. How many miles do you expect to do in the next ~6 months, and what sort of riding will it be used for? Would you consider starting a thread when it arrives please?

 

[whitymon]

I would like to get my hand on a rear Sidekick in AL when available Q1. Still something to take into account is that E13 does not make product that are really reliable (especially hub), it is also pretty overprice - maybe this one will be better have no clue.

O-Chain might be great so, especially as it would allow you to use any kind of wheel/hub.

The real question is, past commercial and placebo effect, will a normal rider will be able to feel it, will you?

At the very least, there is also the drawback of missing fast engagement which can be really bad for some people, for me as I do nearly only DH this make sense not sure it is worth or enjoyable for trail/enduro so, especially on tech climb or when you need some quick more pedal before a feature.

Would be eager too to see a real feedback.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Rocky mountains are going at 50% at Paul's cycles in the UK.

We have that here as well on the full Power Powerplays. If I could get that deal on the new Instinct SL in the states, I'd take it!

 

[Suns_PSD]

I managed to drop 400gms of weight of my dh bike. It's a long story, but I used to run t-type on it. Was to be able to hot swap wheels with my ebike in case of flats etc.
Anyway went to XO1 7spd with an og axs derailleur with med cage, it saves a shit load of weight. The difference in suspension performance was crazy. It was like someone had swapped a different shock in. It's so dramatic I'm looking at throwing t-type in the bin and going full xtr on my ebike and I really hate cables!

I swapped 3 bikes to SRAM X01 11 speeds, saving about 240 grams off the rear wheel, and was pleasantly surprised at how much more responsive the rear suspension seemed to feel. The thing is, compared to the gravity tire, & the DH rear rim, percent wise, it's still a pretty small change.

 

[AlumiPro]

I’m super interested to hear how you get on with the e13 hub and also if you have any reliability issues. How many miles do you expect to do in the next ~6 months, and what sort of riding will it be used for? Would you consider starting a thread when it arrives please?

I only purchased the rear Sidekick to hopefully reduce the motor rattle.
I recently purchased a gearbox/carbon belt drive mtb and have been enjoying how quiet it is, along with enjoying MANY other aspects of it. I won’t be replacing my Crestline/gen4 Bosch until a long travel gearbox emtb hits the market with the features I want……so I’d like to do what I can to reduce the Bosch gen4 rattle! If Bosch came out with an anti-rattle service kit for the gen4 I’d pay $500+ for it.
I ride tight single track, natural very rocky tech trails, climbing and descending. I’ve put 1k miles on my Crestline in a year. But now that I’ve been enjoying my new gearbox mtb so much, I won’t be putting as many miles on my Emtb, as traditional derailleur drivetrains suck for the terrain I ride and I find the motor rattling annoying. If all you ride is a rattling emtb, the noise is easy to get used to.
I’ll share how the Sidekick performs, if it doesn’t reduce the rattle, I’ll most likely unlace it and sell it.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I only purchased the rear Sidekick to hopefully reduce the motor rattle.
I recently purchased a gearbox/carbon belt drive mtb and have been enjoying how quiet it is, along with enjoying MANY other aspects of it. I won’t be replacing my Crestline/gen4 Bosch until a long travel gearbox emtb hits the market with the features I want……so I’d like to do what I can to reduce the Bosch gen4 rattle! If Bosch came out with an anti-rattle service kit for the gen4 I’d pay $500+ for it.
I ride tight single track, natural very rocky tech trails, climbing and descending. I’ve put 1k miles on my Crestline in a year. But now that I’ve been enjoying my new gearbox mtb so much, I won’t be putting as many miles on my Emtb, as traditional derailleur drivetrains suck for the terrain I ride and I find the motor rattling annoying. If all you ride is a rattling emtb, the noise is easy to get used to.
I’ll share how the Sidekick performs, if it doesn’t reduce the rattle, I’ll most likely unlace it and sell it.

The Crestline has significant chain growth due to the rearward axle path and no high pivot. My point being that you might also encounter better rear suspension performance and/ or less feedback in the pedals on your janky terrain.

Please keep us in the loop! And if you sell it, PM me!