Another Serious Lake District MTB Crash today - Think about the consequences to emergency services attending during covid!

[The Hodge]

@steve_sordy ..
I hope you have covered yourself with insurance for these guided rides..it wasn't too many years ago when an mtb guide got sued for a six figure sum after a rider injured himself and claimed that the level of difficulty wasn't fully explained to him ..
edit:

Norwich bike instructor sued over lawyer's Surrey Hills fall

A mountain bike instructor is sued millions of pounds after a lawyer was left paralysed when he fell on his head during a beginners' training course.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Norange]

That's a paid course though, no?

 

[The Hodge]

Correct ..but blame culture being what it is these days who is to say that someone wouldn't try it on ..even on a free guided tour ..at the very least I would have folks signing some form of disclaimer ..

 

[Jorel]

Norwich bike instructor sued over lawyer's Surrey Hills fall

A mountain bike instructor is sued millions of pounds after a lawyer was left paralysed when he fell on his head during a beginners' training course.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's hard stuff!
I'm an instructor myself (no, not MTB) and well insured.
Imagine trying to motivate people to learn sth new by leaving their comfort zone (which is necessary in this kind of sport) and then you get sued because you do your work.
Strange times we live in...

Would be interesting to know if the participants had to sign a waiver in that course.

 

[Supratad]

It seems amazing that he didn’t have full waivers for injury. He really left himself wide open with that. If you go to a circuit track day, you have to sign a full waiver to participate because, guess what, you might well crash.

 

[Norange]

It seems amazing that he didn’t have full waivers for injury. He really left himself wide open with that. If you go to a circuit track day, you have to sign a full waiver to participate because, guess what, you might well crash.

Maybe he did? IANAL but I don't think a waiver covers you for all eventualities. Take your track day example. If I sign up for a beginners course, you put me in an F1 car, encourage me to go flat out on lap 1 and I stick it in the wall. In that scenario, I'm not sure a signed waiver absolves you of your responsibilities as an instructor.

 

[steve_sordy]

@steve_sordy ..
I hope you have covered yourself with insurance for these guided rides..it wasn't too many years ago when an mtb guide got sued for a six figure sum after a rider injured himself and claimed that the level of difficulty wasn't fully explained to him ..
edit:

Norwich bike instructor sued over lawyer's Surrey Hills fall

A mountain bike instructor is sued millions of pounds after a lawyer was left paralysed when he fell on his head during a beginners' training course.

www.bbc.co.uk

No I have not covered myself with insurance. I do not charge, although many have encouraged me to do so. I make it clear that I am not an instructor, I am not a qualified guide, and I don't carry a med kit, spare water, spare tubes, stretcher poles, or whatever qualified paid guides do to help justify their charges. I am just someone that knows the trails in that specific area very well indeed. I am fully aware that mtb carries a risk of injury, but so does golf! I do my bit to ensure a safe ride, but I'm not all-seeing or all-knowing. I stop frequently for headcounts and appoint someone else to carry them out. I appeal to the riders to watch out for the rider behind at tight turns to make sure that they make the turn and don't just go sailing along the "obvious" trail and lose the group. When we come to a trail feature that I suspect may be judged a bit tricky, then I stop and point it out, talk about it, open the discussion, allow riders to scope it out. If I'm feeling up to it, I will demonstrate. But sometime I'm just not feeling the force and invite someone else to have a go that I know has successfully passed the obstacle. We do not live in America and so far we don't have a very litigious society in the UK. The only place I "advertise" the guided ride is on here, peopled by mostly like-minded individuals.

No member of any group I have led since starting this guided ride malarkey (9 years) has had any even remotely serious injuries. Maybe nettle rash, a few scrapes from brambles, maybe a bruise or a graze or two; but no twisted ankles, broken wrists, concussions etc.

Or have I just been lucky!
Comments anyone?

Later Edit: Looks like I tempted fate. One of the riders on my very next guided ride was injured. He tore his hamstring at each end on his right leg. It was one of those descents that I didn't feel like doing today, so a good rider did the demo and made it look easy (it wasn't). A rider that I had never met before thought he'd have a go and it went wrong for him exactly how and where I was warning about. He wasn't gung-ho or stupid about it, just a bit over confident having been inspired by the previous rider. I still felt really guilty though. I have taken that descent off my route now and it won't go back on until some rain has stabilised the trail surface and I have ridden it.

 

[The Hodge]

Please don't get me wrong Steve ..I think it's great that you show folks around your local trails and maybe it was the wording in your original post that threw me a little bit ..but my mentioning insurance was from the viewpoint that if you set yourself up as a guide you could leave yourself open to a claim ..and more out of concern that it might happen rather than having a pop at you ..no offence intended .

 

[Nicho]

I think saying the OP is victim blaming is equally ridiculous ..

@Nicho only copied the text from an existing story/article and titled it to remind us to still be aware.

Exactly.

I posted it to remind people that having accidents off-road at this time can cause serious issues for the MRT members who turn out to attend the incident.

Covid precautions mean that all personnel have to wear full PPE including face masks, goggles and full waterproofs even in the middle of summer whilst doing casualty care and carrying a stretcher; have you tried doing that?

If the casualty tests positive for Covid when they are taken to hospital (he/she might not know they have it) all the MRT people who attended (this could be easily 20 to 30 people on a long carry-off) plus all their families will be required to self-isolate for 10 days, and many of those people are also essential workers.

The intention of the posting was therefore to make people think about the consequences to other people of going out to do potentially dangerous activities at this time.

 

[Drsooty]

I think saying the OP is victim blaming is equally ridiculous ..

@Nicho only copied the text from an existing story/article and titled it to remind us to still be aware.

It is the title I was referring to.

People are not going out looking to have accidents or get injured. To imply that someone who does need help from emergency services has not "thought about their actions" or considered other people during the covid pandemic is, by definition, exactly that, victim blaming.

 

[Planemo]

People are not going out looking to have accidents or get injured.

I am sure 99.99% of riders don't go out looking to have accidents. Doesn't mean that some aren't carrying the same courage as they were pre-covid though.

I noted that Pilgrim has said in several videos that he isn't going so gnarly during covid times for the exact reasons stated by the OP.

 

[Mike D.]

Speaking as someone with an internal titanium brace screwed into his upper spine from MTB-related back breakage and follow-on permanent disability from a botched operation (yes, STILL riding - changing to the EMTB has been an absolute boon), my own view is that dangerous fun like ours will almost ALWAYS exact a price from even the most experienced rider, from bramble scratches all the way up to bone breakage. Even death, occasionally.

If you don't want to risk it, don't do it.

Having said that, to the Cumbria rider... get well soon, buddy.

 

[Supratad]

Maybe he did? IANAL but I don't think a waiver covers you for all eventualities. Take your track day example. If I sign up for a beginners course, you put me in an F1 car, encourage me to go flat out on lap 1 and I stick it in the wall. In that scenario, I'm not sure a signed waiver absolves you of your responsibilities as an instructor.

You subverted the example there to prove your own point. You’re now talking about a race car experience day. Different thing entirely. On a track day, the example I was using, you drive your own car hopefully within your own limits. If you crash or get hit by another car, it’s all down to you.
Similarly, if you’re on an mtb instruction course, riding your own bike, you should expect to be responsible for your own safety.
That the injured party in the case above is a lawyer speaks volumes. The advice given by the instructor was correct but the guy still had his own accident. I’m personally disappointed that he’s won a claim but equally if the instructor didn’t cover himself, he’s found out the hard way. Not as hard as the paralysed guy but still.

 

[SquireRides]

OP/Article didn't say: How's the bike?

 

[steve_sordy]

Please don't get me wrong Steve ..I think it's great that you show folks around your local trails and maybe it was the wording in your original post that threw me a little bit ..but my mentioning insurance was from the viewpoint that if you set yourself up as a guide you could leave yourself open to a claim ..and more out of concern that it might happen rather than having a pop at you ..no offence intended .

Hey, have no concern! I was not in the least offended, in fact it never occurred to me that anyone was having a pop at me.

In fact I thought the recco to get insured was well meant and I replied with why I didn't believe it was required. What it has done is to remind me to make it clear that despite it being announced as a "guided ride" and despite me being nominally "in charge", it should be seen as a "mates ride". Because I have been there before I am showing around the rest of the group. I will give the usual advice that I would give to mates, but as someone else said previously, "you ride your own ride".

I will not be asking attendees to sign a waiver or anything like. That would just suck the fun out of it all.

 

[Ginn]

Sounds like a sensible approach to me. Pretty early on i reckon people would work out for themselves where they fit in skill wise. But frequent stops are a part of open group rides IME. Have appreciated heads up info in the past, and been on the receiving end of a blind drop beyond my courage level.

I do several free guided rides per year and I have a sort of similar problem. I feel a level of responsibility for the safety of the individuals of the group. It is impossible for me to judge just by looking how skilful a rider may be. Should I judge nobody and just tank in at my top speed on obstacles and trails I know well and hope that everyone can deal with it? Then discover that someone couldn't and now the whole group has to deal with an injured rider at worst or a broken bike at best? Or do I assume that everyone may be caught out and then have to keep interrupting the ride to explain what is just around the corner? Hmm..

What I actually try to do is make it clear before the ride what is ahead without unnecessarily scaring anyone off (I'm hoping to scare some riders off). Then I take it it steady at first. I stop before anything that has given me a problem in the last few years to say what's coming. What I consider to be the tricky ones I stop and let everyone have a good look. Sometimes I'm just not feeling it and I don't do one of the trickiest ones myself, even though I've done it before! So how can I expose other riders to this level of difficulty (as I perceive it) without giving them the heads up? OK that could be viewed as me making a judgement about the capabilities of others. But I'm not; what I am doing is providing a sensible filter and letting them make their own decision. I hope that is how it is seen.

There's a chance I may be seen as an old woman, worrying about nothing! However, I'd hate for someone laid on the floor to be screaming "why didn't you warn me!"

Tough! This approach works for me and I'm sticking to it.

I like your approach to leading a ride. I recently signed up for an intermediate/advanced skills course on the east cost in Stokesville, VA. Last year I was able to get my hands on a Levo SL before all the madness started. I love the bike and it's capabilities are greater then my perceived skillset. I signed up for the course to enhance my skills and confidence to meet the bike. But to your point, if during the course or any ride and I don't feel comfortable performing a skill or if the body is exhausted from the 3 previous days of riding in Roanoke, , I will punt the skill and plan for the next time. As noted earlier "ride your ride".

Hopefully, the injured rider will be back on the bike soon!

 

[John Beedham]

Ride within your limits. That’s all.

and your bikes!

 

[Dustjunky]

Ride within your limits means absolutely nothing but a phrase that concerned parents say to their offspring in hope that they won't get hurt.
If the child would obey that it would certainly be an adult with no experience at all.
Most outdoor sports are always dangerous.
Except chess at a picnic... that's safe, I think ?

I once ended up with a Rook stuffed up my left nostril and a jam sandwich up my ........?

 

[Planemo]

As noted earlier "ride your ride".

I totally agree 100%. Unfortunately we live in a world of claim, blame and litigation where idiots with no common sense will go after anyone with a 'no win no fee' tagline when things go wrong.

It is for this reason that I would feel very twitchy leading anyone, especially where I could be seen as a 'guide', even if I am not charging money.

 

[RsGaz]

I use that famous saying
“ IF IN DOUBT FLAT OUT “ if you dont crash your not trying ?

??I’ve many screws, pins and plates because I use that saying ?‍

 

[Norange]

I totally agree 100%. Unfortunately we live in a world of claim, blame and litigation where idiots with no common sense will go after anyone with a 'no win no fee' tagline when things go wrong.

It is for this reason that I would feel very twitchy leading anyone, especially where I could be seen as a 'guide', even if I am not charging money.

I've been guided, both professionally and in an off the cuff way. I've also done some "guiding" in terms of leading group rides where i don't know everyone. When being guided professionally, there was self assessment beforehand and a bit of warm up where the instructor could identify skill level.

From the article linked, the instructor was leading a beginner course. He encouraged a novice to ride at speed down a track in the Surrey Hills which isn't known as being for beginners. And did so without without first assessing the riders skill level. Rider shares some culpability, no doubt. But as a beginner, on a beginners course, I reckon he's entitled to place a level of trust in the instructor, who failed him in a number of ways. IMO, you are likely to know much more as an intermediate rider about what's potentially dangerous.

 

[Labrador29]

...Reading this a couple of points ..
Telling yourself you are " rubbish " doesn't exactly breed confidence to try and improve ..and if you normally fall off at slow speeds try riding a little faster..being too cautious on sections that demand that you carry some speed can be just as dangerous ..both to yourself and others ..

I agree 100%, but at 75 years of age the body doesn't bounce as well as it used to. I backed off a steep sharp left downhill banked switchback on Friday, and the rear slipped on pine needles. Resulted in a slow 'off' with e-mtb on top of me. No injury, but you are right, if I had kept my speed up, I would probably have been okay unless I made a misjudgement. Have now decided with others in my geriatric group (aged 70-83 years of age), that we will limit our rides to Grade 3 from now on.

 

[The Hodge]

I agree 100%, but at 75 years of age the body doesn't bounce as well as it used to. I backed off a steep sharp left downhill banked switchback on Friday, and the rear slipped on pine needles. Resulted in a slow 'off' with e-mtb on top of me. No injury, but you are right, if I had kept my speed up, I would probably have been okay unless I made a misjudgement. Have now decided with others in my geriatric group (aged 70-83 years of age), that we will limit our rides to Grade 3 from now on.

Hats off to you and your group ..fantastic to hear that you are still out riding with a a bunch of mates ..the oldest in our group is 74..(×2) so all being well we still have years ahead of us ..we've all been ripping it up together since 2007..but this last year has taken its toll with covid , injury & various body parts being replaced ( not me yet) ..but yesterday was hopefully a start of better days to come when 4 of us met up for the first time in ages ..and it was great .
Having said that the youngster in the group (50ish ) had a nasty fall into a mini ravine landing heavily on his back with the bike on top of him ( non ebike) ..carried on riding but was in a lot of pain when I heard from him last night and decided to go to A&E to get checked out ..
I've not heard anything back yet but hopefully he is OK..
Hope you all keep on riding for years to come ?

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I posted it to remind people that having accidents off-road at this time can cause serious issues for the MRT members who turn out to attend the incident.

Covid precautions mean that all personnel have to wear full PPE including face masks, goggles and full waterproofs even in the middle of summer whilst doing casualty care and carrying a stretcher; have you tried doing that?

If the casualty tests positive for Covid when they are taken to hospital (he/she might not know they have it) all the MRT people who attended (this could be easily 20 to 30 people on a long carry-off) plus all their families will be required to self-isolate for 10 days, and many of those people are also essential workers.

The intention of the posting was therefore to make people think about the consequences to other people of going out to do potentially dangerous activities at this time.

tangency |ˈtan(d)ʒ(ə)nsi | noun - definition:
When no one appears to be listening to the point you raised.

 

[Labrador29]

Hats off to you and your group ..fantastic to hear that you are still out riding with a a bunch of mates ..the oldest in our group is 74..(×2) so all being well we still have years ahead of us ..we've all been ripping it up together since 2007..but this last year has taken its toll with covid , injury & various body parts being replaced ( not me yet) ..but yesterday was hopefully a start of better days to come when 4 of us met up for the first time in ages ..and it was great .
Having said that the youngster in the group (50ish ) had a nasty fall into a mini ravine landing heavily on his back with the bike on top of him ( non ebike) ..carried on riding but was in a lot of pain when I heard from him last night and decided to go to A&E to get checked out ..
I've not heard anything back yet but hopefully he is OK..
Hope you all keep on riding for years to come ?

That's a shame your group has reduced. Ours does at times too, mainly due to holidays and injuries as a result of 'offs' We are all retired and ride three days a week together, the ride always followed by a coffee and the odd delicious custard square or date scone!!!!. The main group stick to roads, river reserves and cycle-ways, and unlike my little group, are a sensible lot. Unlike the small offshoot group I ride with who prefer more adventurous trails. The main group refer to our little group (8-10) as the 'Suicide Squad'.
Hope your 'youngster' is okay. His fall sounds almost identical to that of our 80 year old last year, who came off on a muddy sharp corner and fell some 3-4 metres into the rocky watercourse. His back pack saved him from more serious injuries. His e-mtb also fell on top of him which didn't help the cause much! Fortunately our team doctor was riding behind and was straight on the case. End result? Two broken ribs and 2 cracked vertebra. MTB was okay though!!!
I think we secretly all share the same philosophy: Better to die on the trail rather than in the armchair in front of television.

 

[Nicho]

When no one appears to be listening to the point you raised.

Sorry. Did you say something?

 

[Binhill1]

Correct ..but blame culture being what it is these days who is to say that someone wouldn't try it on ..even on a free guided tour ..at the very least I would have folks signing some form of disclaimer ..

I'm in a few outdoor clubs if I post a trip that is not a club one I have to say it's a peer paddle. But rich folk can come along as well.

 

[paul-g]

I'm in a few outdoor clubs if I post a trip that is not a club one I have to say it's a peer paddle. But rich folk can come along as well.

are you getting paid for these outings?

 

[Binhill1]

are you getting paid for these outings?

No it's a Sea kayaking club . I just post if anyone fancies a paddle . Supposed to put peer paddle for legal reasons. Know what you mean though if you encouraged anyone to do something and they get hurt you could find yourself in trouble. Your best mates wife might not like it when he is months in hospital.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Stopped the group forum Rides for the liability reason mainly. First one we had about 8 of us. The last one almost 50 riders turned up...

I looked into doing it properly and the amount of paperwork and support we’d need to organise a single ride was crazy... and that removed all the fun from riding with mates.