ADVOCACY for higher MAX SYSTEM WEIGHT. What is MSW ??

[manueloFRCR]

When have you ever seen an 18stone+ rider dirt jumping?

Talk about overthinking

I disagree with you Gary, with our club we go through forest and mountains and believe me we jump. it is not DH but we jump I torn knee and cracked ribs twice in a year I know you don't think bad with your comment. However the topic is not to speak about fatties doing bike but inform on MSW or other criteria to define proper knowledge for the bike consumers.

R120 is right, when you make 2 meters you get heavy furthermore if you have heavy bones.

I like this topic because in few comments we already defined 2 axis of measures for defining coherently bikes.
MSW and Activity.

MTB could be defined by activity needing different resistance thresholds via stress study on bike per each speciality. I like the FOCUS approach in the article above. Then the MSW, and, with this 2 infos you can make your choice easily.

Personally my bike was so expensive I don't mind spending 500 more but to be sure I have what I want following my cycling objectives. In such certification consumers and sellers can define easily responsibilities over warranty claims BTW.

To this day, even if my bike is MSW 150kg, from a good manufacturer, I always wonder if it will break in a bad situation because I don't know if they evaluated the MSW of a FS for road cycling or the activity they are intended to get abused on.

Just a thought

 

[Gary]

All I'm saying is there's no need for any new categories or ratings if you simply use common sense and choose appropriately to your weight and riding style.
I've probably broken more frames, wheels, forks and components than anyone here during my time riding DH and dirt jumping in my 20s and 30s when I weighed just 11-12st. I don't actually break stuff at all anymore despite being a fair bit heavier.

 

[steve_sordy]

Ref post #26 from @GrandPaBrogan
That guy Paul Couderc deserves all the applause he gets for his dedication.
To me it looks like insanity, but it takes all sorts.

 

[Gary]

Watch nitro circus Steve.

 

[steve_sordy]

Watch nitro circus Steve.

You mean this?

I can see the rush that people get, but they are much safer strapped inside their roll cage than a guy on a bike trying to find his bike in mid air whilst doing a somersault that if gets wrong he might well end up in a wheelchair.

 

[manueloFRCR]

Canyon Torque:ON is having a better MSW than previous models. It seems the bike manufacturers are finally listening the customers.

it is a nice bike BTW

 

[manueloFRCR]

All I'm saying is there's no need for any new categories or ratings if you simply use common sense and choose appropriately to your weight and riding style.
I've probably broken more frames, wheels, forks and components than anyone here during my time riding DH and dirt jumping in my 20s and 30s when I weighed just 11-12st. I don't actually break stuff at all anymore despite being a fair bit heavier.

mate you are not alone with yourself surrounded by your common sense and your knowledge imagine there are people who don't know as much as you do.
more transparency from the manufacturers would be good for everybody. just saying

 

[Gary]

You mean this?

I can see the rush that people get, but they are much safer strapped inside their roll cage than a guy on a bike trying to find his bike in mid air whilst doing a somersault that if gets wrong he might well end up in a wheelchair.

Nitro circus involve bikes, skateboards, snow boards, motorcycles, cars and pretty much anything that can get airborne in their stunts, shows and general lifestyle. .. Often pulling off world's first tricks like quad backflips etc.
And yeah. Hospitalisation/death is at risk.
Travis Pastrana is wired differently to most.

 

[Gary]

mate you are not alone with yourself surrounded by your common sense and your knowledge imagine there are people who don't know as much as you do.

In which case even more info would simply be even more confusing..

more transparency from the manufacturers would be good for everybody. just saying

No it wouldn't. As Rekt has mentioned. More "transparency" as you put it would increases the cost of bikes to all. Including average weight riders.

You know what you weigh.. So already have a fairly decent grasp of its drawbacks/benefits without need for a handhold when choosing a bike. But if you do.. There are lots of good bike shops to help.
...Jus sayin

 

[Gary]

I thought it was logical that the bike built for downhill or super enduro was going to be more suitable for heavy riders. What companies are not going to do is make trail bikes heavier and more expensive to cater for this niche rider.

Its not only logical it's glaringly obvious.
But it seems a drama is required first.

 

[manueloFRCR]

Its not only logical it's glaringly obvious.
But it seems a drama is required first.

Just thinking outside of the box.

Less effort understanding the max weight of the system and more understanding in reducing your own system weight.

the bike might hold up better but it wont save you from a heart attack.

Guys at this point you seems to enjoy criticising more than participating the only drama queens I see here are sticking to try to persuade everybody that common sense is key to understand biking purchase.
I disagree, you need to know the limitation of the bike, from the part manufacturer, MSW is furthermore hidden and you have to investigate to find it.
At last, your critics are borderline aggressive.

AGAIN, A lot of people for different reason don't have bike knowledge or enough experience to have "common sense" in regards to bike purchase. So this topic is about informing on MSW and YES it is important information for purchase.


If the topic is not for you, maybe it could be good to buzz off.

 

[Gary]

You dont even seem to know what MSW is actually based on. It isnt the exact scientific weight limit you seem to think it is. And this is where your own common sense comes in. You don't need to be an expert to realise that a 150lb XC plodder is going to be less stress on the bike and components than a 140lb DHer.

Sorry if that's too aggressive.

 

[manueloFRCR]

You dont even seem to know what MSW is actually based on. It isnt the exact scientific weight limit you seem to think it is. And this is where your own common sense comes in. You don't need to be an expert to realise that a 150lb XC plodder is going to be less stress on the bike and components than a 140lb DHer.

Sorry if that's too aggressive.

Princess, now you even know what i know or don't... what you wrote in the second part of your message is an evidence BTW...
Regarding the first part of your message: you write that people like me don't really know what MSW is, or on what it is actually based...

you might realise somewhere that the topic of this thread is to get more visibility from the manufacturer when we purchase a bike and don't have all knowledge "common sense" and infos...

AGAIN, A lot of people for different reason don't have bike knowledge or enough experience to have "common sense" in regards to bike purchase. So this topic is about informing on MSW and YES it is important information for purchase.


Jesus... life is hard... I am sure you are a good guy somewhere and in real life you are certainly very sweet

 

[Gary]

Regarding the first part of your message: you write that people like me don't really know what MSW is, or on what it is actually based..

I didn't say anything about "people like you"

If you read the e-bikemtb.Com article you linked to in the first sentence of your first post you'll see that I'm actually saying the same thing the article does.

 

[Gary]

You can't just weed out other riders input to your thread just because they happen to be light than you.

 

[manueloFRCR]

The topic is for me though. Im 75Kg and i dont want my bike built for a 120KG Rider. I ride the Kenevo 2020. Its got major problems with the shock due to poor design and a 120KG rider would have snapped this coil by now. For me it just bugs me like hell with the creaking.

Im more concerned with getting general reliability up on these bikes rather than over engineering them for 1% of riders.

Well you said everything there...

 

[manueloFRCR]

You can't just weed out other riders input to your thread just because they happen to be light than you.

I know you are smaller than me it is statistically rare to be taller. anyway I guess you missed the point.

I come back to your comments, you write that people "like me among others" don't really know what MSW is, or on what it is actually based...

you might realise somewhere that the topic of this thread is to get more visibility from the manufacturer when we purchase a bike and don't have all knowledge "common sense" and infos...

AGAIN, A lot of people for different reason don't have bike knowledge or enough experience to have "common sense" in regards to bike purchase. So this topic is about informing on MSW and YES it is important information for purchase...

Regarding MSW increase to 150kg it already seems manufacturers go this way which is good in my opinion, and this because, tall, or strong or fat guys too want to enjoy MTB.

The good thing is MTB is great to get in shape, to be positive and friendly

 

[steve_sordy]

I found this years ago and filed it, thinking it might come in handy some day. Finally, after years and years, it may have!

From data to wisdom​

​

Data is just data
Data + focus = information
Information + context = knowledge
Knowledge + experience = expertise
Expertise + time = wisdom
​

I guess that "common sense" would come in at the "expertise" point, or maybe just the "knowledge" stage. It is true that many people don't know what they know until they get asked a question. When the answer seems "obvious" it is can be dismissed as "well it's just common sense, everyone knows that!" But everyone doesn't know. That is why we have experts in stuff to whom we turn for help, we even pay them for their help! It does not matter what the subject may be, or whether we pay them or not, it helps if the expert wears their expertise lightly.

 

[Gary]

I don't think you have to be particularly knowledgeable or an expert in anything to have enough common sense to work out a very heavy human might need slightly tougher sports equipment.

and I don't think it takes heaps of knowledge or expertise to understand that Enduro, DH, slopestyle and Dirt jump bikes are built tougher than XC and trail bikes.

Common sense - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Common sense here does seem less common than I'd imagined though.

 

[manueloFRCR]

I don't think you have to be particularly knowledgeable or an expert in anything to have enough common sense to work out a very heavy human might need slightly tougher sports equipment.

and I don't think it takes heaps of knowledge or expertise to understand that Enduro, DH, slopestyle and Dirt jump bikes are built tougher than XC and trail bikes.

Common sense - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Common sense here does seem less common than I'd imagined though.

I again disagree, newcomers are lost, at least I was.
To come back to your last comment sometime we need more imagination and reflexion yes not everybody can be full of IT
you even assume people know the difference between Enduro, DH, XC, slopestyle (never heard of this) etc etc...

it is all about IT

pedantic - Wiktionary

en.wiktionary.org

(2)

 

[manueloFRCR]

I found this years ago and filed it, thinking it might come in handy some day. Finally, after years and years, it may have!

From data to wisdom​

​

Data is just data​

Data + focus = information​

Information + context = knowledge​

Knowledge + experience = expertise​

Expertise + time = wisdom​

​

I guess that "common sense" would come in at the "expertise" point, or maybe just the "knowledge" stage. It is true that many people don't know what they know until they get asked a question. When the answer seems "obvious" it is can be dismissed as "well it's just common sense, everyone knows that!" But everyone doesn't know. That is why we have experts in stuff to whom we turn for help, we even pay them for their help! It does not matter what the subject may be, or whether we pay them or not, it helps if the expert wears their expertise lightly.

I will save it myself, I like it.

 

[Gary]

I again disagree, newcomers are lost, at least I was.
To come back to your last comment sometime we need more imagination and reflexion yes not everybody can be full of IT
you even assume people know the difference between Enduro, DH, XC, slopestyle (never heard of this) etc etc...

it is all about IT

pedantic - Wiktionary

en.wiktionary.org

(2)

If you're that lost. Then would you not agree you're unlikely to understand the actual science behind a manufacturers quoted MSW numbers? Or the simple fact it's not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

 

[manueloFRCR]

If you're that lost. Then would you not agree you're unlikely to understand the actual science behind a manufacturers quoted MSW numbers? Or the simple fact it's not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Gary, good morning,
Again you are missing the point, it is not about your knowledge Gosh you are crystallised in your acid view of thing I prayed St Rita for you. (I really did BTW)
The point is an ADVOCACY for manufacturer to push to MSW 150kg & at the same time explain again to newcomers what is MSW and why it is an important information.

With the input and comments within the thread we defined that MSW and type of activity while cycling are key to define proper knowledge in regards of bike purchase. which is great BTW.

Even with those elements defined, as customer, we can ask ourselves questions like :
Does the MSW limit really include the activity from the bike segment intended niche ? Does a Full suspension like the EONE 60 with a MSW of 150kg can really jump with a rider of 120kg ?

This advocacy is to have a more transparent info from the manufacturers. They play with dark areas I know I was a QM
Clarity and certification by weight and activity would be a great plus for the consumers At least for me.

amicably;
Emma

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think we can all agree that bikes and emtb's a whole are getting "larger" on average as time goes by. Likewise as technology, understanding, demand, marketing departments desires increase - components and bikes often offer stronger (and in turn, often heavier) options. Like 38mm Zeb's and Fox's as an example.

Just because people are 2m tall doesn't mean they should be excluded. Being taller doesn't mean you can't be a great rider and still enjoy the sport, look at Cathro.

In an ideal world, maybe an XL version of a bike would also have a different component spec. But this either doesn't exist or would be prohibitively expensive for a company to develop and test with a bike. They are still companies and still have to make a profit to survive and make more bikes. If you accommodate a higher MSW into all the product sizes, the bike will ultimately be heavier and certainly wouldn't perform as well for a lighter smaller rider. The proportional difference between bike and rider weight would be lower, which would in turn require far more precise/expensive suspension items - but it would still be a much more unpleasant handling bike.

For the more mass positive rider they will ultimately have a smaller choice. But there are companies out there who let you spec differently when choosing the bike, which may also result in a higher MSW - like Propane or Thok (if you e-mail them).

If anything, it's getting harder and harder for smaller riders to find a suitable bike (not trying to draw attention away from the higher MSW issue). You only need to read the pain suffered on the ladies thread.

 

[manueloFRCR]

I think we can all agree that bikes and emtb's a whole are getting "larger" on average as time goes by. Likewise as technology, understanding, demand, marketing departments desires increase - components and bikes often offer stronger (and in turn, often heavier) options. Like 38mm Zeb's and Fox's as an example.

Just because people are 2m tall doesn't mean they should be excluded. Being taller doesn't mean you can't be a great rider and still enjoy the sport, look at Cathro.

In an ideal world, maybe an XL version of a bike would also have a different component spec. But this either doesn't exist or would be prohibitively expensive for a company to develop and test with a bike. They are still companies and still have to make a profit to survive and make more bikes. If you accommodate a higher MSW into all the product sizes, the bike will ultimately be heavier and certainly wouldn't perform as well for a lighter smaller rider. The proportional difference between bike and rider weight would be lower, which would in turn require far more precise/expensive suspension items - but it would still be a much more unpleasant handling bike.

For the more mass positive rider they will ultimately have a smaller choice. But there are companies out there who let you spec differently when choosing the bike, which may also result in a higher MSW - like Propane or Thok (if you e-mail them).

If anything, it's getting harder and harder for smaller riders to find a suitable bike (not trying to draw attention away from the higher MSW issue). You only need to read the pain suffered on the ladies thread.

Those are very good points, we can see the manufacturer starting to align themselves to 150kg MSW more and more manufacturers go this road. But what you say is right about light weight and girls in regards with suspensions issues.

I don't know but may be manufacturers build bike on the hype of new tech (forks mostly) those forks are engineered for the most aggressive riders ever. From prototypes they go to global market. The question is does a 55kg person really need a FOX 36(my wife)? Or is it wise from manufacturers to propose them ? For manufacturers, they have to follow the trends. Bigger bikes, bigger forks, more rigidity. Maybe to sell pre-assembled bike is not so easy for the manufacturers. It seems for newcomers it is even more difficult to purchase wisely.

I was looking last video where Rob interviewed the nice bike shop owner. People come without info and purchase. Even if you want to inform perfectly the customers, at the end of the day, you can only sell what you have in stock or in your franchise.
I think this forum, with so many experienced, and even beginners like me, could work positively on customer advocacy.

 

[R120]

I think one thing that is clear, is that its not very clear how the system works - we get a fair few threads on the subject.

It would seem that its also something a lot of bike shops dont pick up on when discussing a purchase with a customer. Not fitting in to the category its never an issue I have had to consider, but it does seem that buying a bike for anyone who is in the tall or large category is not as easy as it should be!

 

[Gary]

Beginners wouldn't know the difference anyway. Most wont pay for high end bikes either when novice riders. Novice riders wont push a bike to its limit either so all of this is totally immaterial no matter what the weight of the rider.

Exactly this

 

[Gary]

Just ride your bike Emma. I very much doubt you're exceeding any stress limits.

 

[manueloFRCR]

I think one thing that is clear, is that its not very clear how the system works - we get a fair few threads on the subject.

It would seem that its also something a lot of bike shops dont pick up on when discussing a purchase with a customer. Not fitting in to the category its never an issue I have had to consider, but it does seem that buying a bike for anyone who is in the tall or large category is not as easy as it should be!

Those are very good points, we can see the manufacturer starting to align themselves to 150kg MSW more and more manufacturers go this road. But what you say is right about light weight and girls in regards with suspensions issues.

I don't know but may be manufacturers build bike on the hype of new tech (forks mostly) those forks are engineered for the most aggressive riders ever. From prototypes they go to global market. The question is does a 55kg person really need a FOX 36(my wife)? Or is it wise from manufacturers to propose them ? For manufacturers, they have to follow the trends. Bigger bikes, bigger forks, more rigidity. Maybe to sell pre-assembled bike is not so easy for the manufacturers. It seems for newcomers it is even more difficult to purchase wisely.

I was looking last video where Rob interviewed the nice bike shop owner. People come without info and purchase. Even if you want to inform perfectly the customers, at the end of the day, you can only sell what you have in stock or in your franchise.
I think this forum, with so many experienced, and even beginners like me, could work positively on customer advocacy.

Apparently issue is not only for tall and big but also for girls and women being lightweight. I have to read the thread about it.

 

[manueloFRCR]

Just ride your bike Emma. I very much doubt you're exceeding any stress limits.

hello friend,
It is not very logical nor backed up by science what you write beside it contradict what you wrote previously.

friendly advice : Life is too short for war You should check yourself. You would not be acid like that with people in real life. I hope so at least.

TYTYRF