ADVOCACY for higher MAX SYSTEM WEIGHT. What is MSW ??

[manueloFRCR]

ARTICLE challenge of increasing MAX SYSTEM WEIGHT

Very pleased to see Focus making efforts in this direction (see article above).
Big thx to Rob for making one of the only video explaining MSW.


I am a heavy rider, at the time I bought my bike I was at 122 kg then I had to add + the weight of the bike ( 22 ) + and clothing ( 5 )to get my MAX SYSTEM WEIGHT I was at 149kg...
Unfortunately very few bike manufacturers do bikes guarantied to 150kg MSW.

At the time of my selection I wanted a Specialized, but NO NO max system weight is 110kg ( rider weight 85kg MAX ) for most of the brands Specialized included...

HOW TO CALCULATE MSW ? here is for my MSW.
your weight= 122 kg
your bike weight= 22 kg
your clothing and backpack weight= 5 kg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MY TOTAL MSW 149 kg

You will have a lot of fanboys saying : "you don't care, I never had an issue" etc...it might be true but the truth is when the shit hit the fan, insurance or shop will find any excuse to not cover a failure.
So for me, at least, I had to find e-bike with a real 150kg MAX SYSTEM WEIGHT.

At the time, only some models of MERIDA, CANNONDALE, GIANT and the "black" serie of CUBE were going up to 150kg MSW.

I finally bought a EONE 60 from Merida M#RIDA serie as there was no stock of Cannondale in my region. I am very happy about it I love it, it is a TANK my best bike ever.

To have more resistant bike will benefit everybody. So yes this is an advocacy for pushing manufacturers to build more resistant bike and to have clearer certificate regarding bike construction or intended use.

"If a bike don't fail for a 120kg man it will even less fail for a 75kg."
At least more people will get the info about MSW


​

**** ACTUAL SYNTHESIS on BRAINSTORM from the THREAD **** update February 13th, 2021

We defined that 1-MSW, and, 2-the cycling activity(DH, trail, cross…), are key to define proper knowledge in regards of bike purchase.
IT is clear that no certification, or global codification and rules exist to help customers decide for their new bikes.

MSW remains unclear in regards of how the bike testing are done, nor what kind of cycling tests vs type of cycling activity are performed during the testing of MSW.*

Both lightweight and heavyweight riders face issues while choosing their bike.**

*——
As customer, we can ask ourselves questions like :
Does the MSW limit really include the activity from the bike segment intended niche ? Does a Full suspension like the EONE 60 with a MSW of 150kg can really jump with a rider of 120kg ?

**——
Manufacturers follow hypes of new tech (forks, angles.. etc… ) those forks are engineered for the most aggressive riders ever. From prototypes they go to global market. The question is does a 55kg person really need a FOX 36(my wife)? Or is it wise from manufacturers to propose them ?

For manufacturers, have to follow advertising. Bigger bikes, bigger forks, more rigidity. Maybe to sell pre-assembled bike is not as easy as we could imagine. It seems for newcomers it is even more difficult to purchase wisely.

MINIMUM RECOMMENDATION - for insurance & warranty reasons validate your MSW.

 

[Mteam]

is specialized really only 110kg max weight? cant believe that.

For whats its worth my orbea has a sticker on it saying max weight 150kg

EDIT : just done a quick search and it appears that for specialized it is a max RIDER weight of 110kg ,not max all up weight.

 

[steve_sordy]

I sympathise with your plight; If I weighed the same I would be asking the same questions. But few weigh as much. To make all bikes stronger and more expensive just for the few% that weigh a bit is making all bikes more expensive, just so the heavy guys can have more choice. There are solutions for the heavy guys and you have found them, your post shows four bike brands that meet your needs. I have not looked, but there may be more. NOTE: Orbea has just popped up as another one!

I am not a whippet, I weigh in at 113kg inc bike and kit.

Your final point is actually asking all bike manufacturers to over engineer the bike for the majority of their customers. In other words heavier and more expensive.

 

[manueloFRCR]

I sympathise with your plight; If I weighed the same I would be asking the same questions. But few weigh as much. To make all bikes stronger and more expensive just for the few% that weigh a bit is making all bikes more expensive, just so the heavy guys can have more choice. There are solutions for the heavy guys and you have found them, your post shows four bike brands that meet your needs. I have not looked, but there may be more. NOTE: Orbea has just popped up as another one!

I am not a whippet, I weigh in at 113kg inc bike and kit.

Your final point is actually asking all bike manufacturers to over engineer the bike for the majority of their customers. In other words heavier and more expensive.

hopefully it is going on the direction to increase MSW. My wife bike in M size is up to 154kg MSW. Focus following th article included in comment pursue the target of 150kg too. However following the article and FOCUS technicians 150kg is the limit without having to increase weight.

In my opinion all bike should go to MSW 150kg. and Steve if you are 113kg you MSW is around 140kg
But I agree to go above 150kg is not relevant unless for heavy and aggressive riders (which might be rare) IMOO.

 

[steve_sordy]

..............
In my opinion all bike should go to MSW 150kg. and Steve if you are 113kg you MSW is around 140kg
.............

But I weigh 113kg including my bike and kit. (see above "113kg inc bike and kit")

 

[smtkelly]

I think like most things in life they cater from an average. I know a friend who is 6'4" is saved up to buy this sports car but he'd only fit in it with the roof down he was truly crushed (no pun) made me thankful for being average.

I'm also sympathetic to heavy riders I pipped at 110kg at my heaviest 5years ago and dropped down to 70kg now. But as mentioned before theres a cost to companies that would be past onto every consumer. Bikes will also likely need to be heavier for which ebikes they are starting to reach what most riders accept. I know I'd like to see more XXS emtb (to buy my son one), nice to see canyon doing womens frames so I guess there's a market.

I think the best bet is a +frame certification where you can order a bike and add the "+frame" option for a at cost fee then they re-enforce the frame or use stronger materials. Maybe some manufacturers will offer whole ranges in "+frame" as a sign of engineering confidence (like santa cruz's 10 year frame warranty)

 

[R120]

The issue is more often than not the suspension more than the bike itself, which is why you will often see hardtail with a higher MSW.

 

[manueloFRCR]

I think like most things in life they cater from an average. I know a friend who is 6'4" is saved up to buy this sports car but he'd only fit in it with the roof down he was truly crushed (no pun) made me thankful for being average.

I'm also sympathetic to heavy riders I pipped at 110kg at my heaviest 5years ago and dropped down to 70kg now. But as mentioned before theres a cost to companies that would be pasted onto every consumer. Bikes will also likely need to be heavier for which ebikes they are starting to reach what most riders accept. I know I'd like to see more XXS emtb (to buy my son one), nice to see canyon doing womens frames so I guess there's a market.

I think the best bet is a +frame certification where you can order a bike and add the "+frame" option for a at cost fee then they re-enforce the frame or use stronger materials. Maybe some manufacturers will offer whole ranges in "+frame" as a sign of engineering confidance (like santa cruz's 10 year frame warranty)

yes that would be the best approach. funny thing is my wife bike in M size is MSW 154kg. So I guess it is not so difficult to make strong bikes (Merida Giant and Cannondale do it, Focus is on the way). In fact I think there should be 2 key certifications for E-bikes and bike.

Max System Weight and Agressivity level ie - like DT Swiss for the wheels (1 is light road use and 5 is downhill use )or Cube for the bikes.

 

[manueloFRCR]

The issue is more often than not the suspension more than the bike itself, which is why you will often see hardtail with a higher MSW.

I am not sure I was discussing with the Specialized shop manager next to my place and he told me that the fork and shock are the same across different manufacturers. So the differences seems to be on the frame. For example I have a Lyrik but my bike is guarantied to 150k (Merida), the bike of my wife has a fox36 and is guarantied until 154kg (giant).

 

[Gary]

fact I think there should be 2 key certifications for E-bikes and bike.

No mate. There only needs to be one.
Common sense.

 

[Stihldog]

The issue is more often than not the suspension more than the bike itself, which is why you will often see hardtail with a higher MSW.

Wait, maybe I read this wrong? Wouldn’t a hard tail have a lower MSW? Less absorbing force therefore more impact force.

 

[manueloFRCR]

No mate. There only needs to be one.
Common sense.

I agree in the best of world common sense is keys, however when you start your search and know nothing, the bike industry is somewhat opaque.
For bikes, to grasp "common sense" you need to understand the manufacturers directions and meanings. In my experience (I admit i was certainly not lucky) but the salespeople or bike shops just want to sell their bike Attila style - item sold - bye bye)
I send apologies to the good bike shop owners of the world in advance.

But yes common sense comes with intelligence or knowledge, it is always good to have some.

 

[Jackware]

FYI the Cube Reaction Hybrid SLT range is rated to 150kg

https://www.cube.eu/fileadmin/2021/Service/Systemgewicht/Hybrid__weight_limits_MY21.pdf

 

[manueloFRCR]

Nobody is hucking to flat on a hard tail. not anyone with any brains anyway. The weight limit is based on expected use.

I am not sure on that, for example Eone sixty and Trance Pro are made for beating but they both are rated above 150kg, To see more clearly, I would really like to see a heavy weight rider do a severe DH on one of this bikes. We swim a bit in the dark. There is one heavy rider in the pro circuit, I will look what he has. That is why serious certifications would be great for customers.

 

[Stihldog]

“Operator Abuse” could be attached to most of our riding styles. A clause within a warranty contract could disqualify our type of riding. But. It wouldn’t look good for a frame manufacturer to have a frame fail under extreme conditions. Replace the frame with an awful colour.

 

[manueloFRCR]

What you seem to want is some guarantee that your weight will be fine on a bike. Nobody is going to give you that. Just because its rated that high doesnt mean it will not fail. Ive never seen a warranty claim refused based on rider weight given that warranty is usually managed remotely via the dealers etc.

I am in a MTB club here and there are quite a lot of tall guys in CR. the point is, it is a serious topic here because as I wrote shop jumping on rider weight to dismiss a warranty claim is not surprising in central europa. So yes MSW is a serious topic not to be dismissed of your warranty if you own an expensive bike. my opinion.

 

[R120]

I am not sure I was discussing with the Specialized shop manager next to my place and he told me that the fork and shock are the same across different manufacturers. So the differences seems to be on the frame. For example I have a Lyrik but my bike is guarantied to 150k (Merida), the bike of my wife has a fox36 and is guarantied until 154kg (giant).

I meant not only the shock (which of course has limits) but the suspension design, bearings etc and what limits the design and construction itself put on rider weight.

 

[R120]

I think its a valid point, as I have several friends who are proper big unit rugby player types, and are very limited to what kind of bike they can ride, due to their genetic more than any lifestyle choice!

 

[steve_sordy]

What about the "restrictions on use" clauses?
I didn't expect to see "no jumping" restrictions on a hardtail. This was not a cheap BSO, it was a Kona Kula 100mm travel with £875 rrp in 2008. I haven't bothered to read owner's manuals ever since. It was a "cover your arse" clause from the manufacturers, but I recall it even had a "not for use on rough terrain" clause as well. WTF!

 

[jerry]

BTW, what's with the layout of the OP? 5 different fonts, 4 dufferent font sizes, 3 colors... I first though I was looking at some Chinese spam ad.... Back to normal please, it does the job...

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

What about the "restrictions on use" clauses?
I didn't expect to see "no jumping" restrictions on a hardtail. This was not a cheap BSO, it was a Kona Kula 100mm travel with £875 rrp in 2008. I haven't bothered to read owner's manuals ever since. It was a "cover your arse" clause from the manufacturers, but I recall it even had a "not for use on rough terrain" clause as well. WTF!

Yes I've also seen FS MTBs with "Not for off-road use" stickers... but only on bargain cheapie bikes in department stores. They're steel, heavy as a tank and they smell like recycled doormat rubber. ? ?

But I wouldn't have expected to see that on a Kona... at that price... ?

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

How you ride has a bigger effect than your own weight. a light rider can push a bike when riding aggressively more than a heavy rider on a trail center leisure ride.

Yes. MSW is indeed a tricky subject because there is static weight - but then there is dynamic weight (impact force) which varies greatly depending on usage.

“Operator Abuse” could be attached to most of our riding styles. A clause within a warranty contract could disqualify our type of riding. But. It wouldn’t look good for a frame manufacturer to have a frame fail under extreme conditions...

Agree... frame failure would be a marketing nightmare for any high-end brand manufacturer... EVEN in extreme and perhaps justifiable conditions.

Nobody is hucking to flat on a hard tail. not anyone with any brains anyway. The weight limit is based on expected use.

True... but on very extreme cases, even hucking a hard tail onto a landing ramp... when it goes wrong... might as well be landing to flat... not just once, but repeatedly!
And yet, high end frames still can't be seen to fail. Case in point is this video... which is officially being used by Commencal as their advert. I can't imagine how MSW can even relate to this type of aggressive marketing - where frame failure and warranty liabilities appears to have been defiantly thrown out the window.


(There's no mention of how many times his bike has been repaired or replaced during the shooting of this video... if at all).

 

[jbrown15]

I recalled watching a video with one of the bike companies and they were discussing that allot of the time the weight rating could be due to some components they've chosen to use on the bikes. It might not be due to the manufactures frame only being rated for that weight.

 

[Gary]

When have you ever seen an 18stone+ rider dirt jumping?

Talk about overthinking

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

When have you ever seen an 18stone+ rider dirt jumping?
Talk about overthinking

I didn't imply that at all. In fact, that's another way of stating the point I was making. MSW as a standard might be fine for a commuter or road bike, but would be tricky to implement for MTB applications and may only serve expose manufacturers to additional liability.

I was just agreeing with and exemplifying what @Rekt pointed out... "a light rider can push a bike when riding aggressively more than a heavy rider on a trail center leisure ride."

It's a forum Gary... chill...

 

[jbrown15]

When have you ever seen an 18stone+ rider dirt jumping?

Talk about overthinking

I'm 260lbs and I ride my son's dirt jumper and jump my ebike all the time, good size gaps and drops.

 

[Gary]

Cool. Can you show us you dirtjumping? I'm sure you'd agree it's not exactly the norm for a guy your weight

 

[Gary]

It's a forum Gary... chill...

Why would you think I'm not chilled?

My comment about overthinking wasn't directed just to you but the whole thread... Like I said earlier. all that's needed is a little common sense.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Why would you think I'm not chilled?

My comment about overthinking wasn't directed just to you but the whole thread... Like I said earlier. all that's needed is a little common sense.

What makes you think we're all overthinking this? Maybe we're just spending time by having what some of us might consider good conversation...

 

[jbrown15]

Cool. Can you show us you dirtjumping? I'm sure you'd agree it's not exactly the norm for a guy your weight

No I'd say its a fair assessment, most bigger guys probably wouldn't be big into jumping. I guess you could say I'm a fat guy with a skinny mindset....lol
I've ridden motocross most of my life though so I'm sure that factors into it a little, plus I hate having my 12 year old trying to show me up so I have to keep pace with him....lol
They progress fast at that age plus he's been racing motocross and arenacross on his dirt bike for five years now.