A summary of why mtbs are (still) so much nicer to ride than Emtbs

[Gary]

From Bryn Atkinson

Sit back and enjoy...



Not so much, eh?...



#NotHatinJustSayin

 

[2unfit2ride]

Well at least he landed the big jump in the emtb one better than he did in the first one, looked sketchy at best

 

[Jamsxr]

I think it’s just a better edit. This should even it out... I actually prefer my MTB ?

 

[Gary]

Well at least he landed the big jump in the emtb one better than he did in the first one, looked sketchy at best

Spoken like a true Emtber. There isn't a BIG jump in the emtb video
He lands the little wooden kicker jump in the Emtb vid smoothly as it's a short poppy jump with a built downslope landing. The jumps towards the end of the mtb video are actually a high speed (much longer) fade jump with a natural mellow downslope landing. Hence the different preference in landing technique

This should even it out...

Not really.
There are finally some decent Emtb videos around showing how they can be ridden by a good rider but you miss my point entirely. It's the subtle handling traits, finesse and fine control an mtb has that Emtb's just don't. As soon as i watched that vid with Bryn cuttying succssive turns (0:24 - 0:34 and 1:18 - 1:23) it made me realise what I hate about my Emtb compared to my 18lb lighter mtb
Even Bryn couldn't ride an emtb in the same way he does the Optic.

It's cool you prefer a big heavy stable bike with a motor though. Both Emtb and mtb are a lot of fun to ride.

#IdidsayNOThatin

 

[2unfit2ride]

Spoken like a true Emtber. There isn't a BIG jump in the emtb video
He lands the little wooden kicker jump in the Emtb vid smoothly as it's a short poppy jump with a built downslope landing. The jumps in the mtb video are actually fast (much longer) fade jumps with a natural mellow downslope.

Well I was pulling your plonker as I know you love to bite, but the landing in the first vid did look poor, I do agree that riding a lighter bike gives much more feel, but as you know the downhill bikes we were riding in the early 90's weighed about the same as a decent EMTB does now so go figure.
Cheers.

 

[Gary]

Just look at some of the fastest blokes who were winning world cups on those old bikes.
Wooden AF. especially the big guys like Peaty and Warner Vs little guys like Vouilloz who actually did place importance on DH race bike weight.
90s DH was quite a different beast to what and how we ride today tho.

 

[2unfit2ride]

What these kind of easy trails?


He still landed them all front wheel first

 

[Fivetones]

I’ll half bite - do you enjoy sitting by a lake peacefully contemplating life in the mountains Gary? (The dude just happens to be fishing). Then in minutes hoist yourself up to the top of one of the those mountains and blast down? That contrast is the joy of it. If Bryn can do that stuff in the first vid under his own power fair play but on an EMTB he could do it twice for double the practice time.

Ok, the reality though is that the difference in weight is still an issue for technique and ‘pure‘ MTBing. I think that what will happen is EMTB will evolve to become much more of it’s own category with new techniques will develop (I love uphill technique an finesse too as an ex-trails guy but that’s less sexy in an edit) at the same time as weight drops a few Kg from today’s trucks.

There’s many other factors here but I’m personally invested in EMTB ,and it’s evolution, as it is the only bike I could consider these days for health reasons. This is, of course, not your point but it’s not one or the other - MTB will never go away either.

 

[Jamsxr]

Spoken like a true Emtber. There isn't a BIG jump in the emtb video
He lands the little wooden kicker jump in the Emtb vid smoothly as it's a short poppy jump with a built downslope landing. The jumps towards the end of the mtb video are actually a high speed (much longer) fade jump with a natural mellow downslope landing. Hence the different preference in landing technique

Not really.
There are finally some decent Emtb videos around showing how they can be ridden by a good rider but you miss my point entirely. It's the subtle handling traits, finesse and fine control an mtb has that Emtb's just don't. As soon as i watched that vid with Bryn cuttying succssive turns (0:24 - 0:34 and 1:18 - 1:23) it made me realise what I hate about my Emtb compared to my 18lb lighter mtb
Even Bryn couldn't ride an emtb in the same way he does the Optic.

It's cool you prefer a big heavy stable bike with a motor though. Both Emtb and mtb are a lot of fun to ride.

#IdidsayNOThatin

I didn’t miss your point, I choose my MTB most of the time ?

 

[Rich-EMTB-UK]

Of course MTB's are nicer than E-MTB's that is bleeding obvious as they say. There is a reason I ride an E-MTB and have sold my beloved Yeti. At 61 yrs I am too knackered riding up mountains nowadays so as opposed to becoming a roadie which used to be the only option I can still enjoy riding in the places I love with a little assistance. Nothing else matters.

 

[TheBikePilot]

I didn’t miss your point, I choose my MTB most of the time ?

Your committing sacrildge to us mate!

 

[Jamsxr]

Your committing sacrildge to us mate!

To be fair my Mrs always says I’m boring!
MTB faces ??
EMTB faces ??
Ride soon mate, you need to come down my way ?

 

[TheBikePilot]

Brilliant and so true! Yes dude. Let’s get another ride in soon ??

 

[Swissrob]

The universal problem with mountain biking is well getting to the top, upon arrival the lighter and longer travel (generally) bike you have the better the ride down. In my case, my "mountain" is 55 minutes of lung and gut busting misery in grannie gear compared to 20 minutes of lung and gut busting misery if I am not a lazy bastard and turbo to the top so I am a EMTB fanboy for this. But in summer I spent two weeks in Les Gets/Morzine and Livigno, I rode the EMTB for one afternoon and put the fat pig of a thing away for the rest of the time.

So what did I ride? My 2002 Specialized Enduro (not ridden since the EMTB arrived), sure it has had some upgrades over time and has a bottom bracket 40m too high, wheelbase 150mm too short and I won't even go into head or seat angles but it weighs 12kg with 170F/150R suspension (using the lifts), hell it's older than half the punters on the mountain! I had forgotten how good it actually was in these conditions and thought wow, so then I rented a carbon Santa Cruz Nomad thinking it was going to make a world of difference, it didn't actually perform much better.

So in conclusion old school bikes are more fun, unless you need to ride up!

 

[seamarsh]

What these kind of easy trails?


He still landed them all front wheel first

RIP Fundraiser Set Up in Memory of Jordie Lunn - Pinkbike

 

[2unfit2ride]

RIP Fundraiser Set Up in Memory of Jordie Lunn - Pinkbike

Shit, I didn't realise, so sorry RIP Jordie.

 

[Fivetones]

So, @Gary, in the spirit of the discussion, surely what we see in the first video is the rise of what the Pinkbikers might refer to as “Downcountry” bikes? 11kg 120-130mm travel slacker 29” XC/trail bikes? In that case hoisting to the top of a mountain is much easier and fine technique better on way down.

My comment earlier I guess, is that I’d like to see e-bike versions of this.

 

[Gary]

The optic and where you place it in the bullshit mtb category hierarchy is irrelevant. There are already short(ish) travel slack(ish) 29er Eebs. An Emtb version of the optic with any of the current popular motors and batteries is still going to add 15lb to the frame weight. And there lies the actual handling issue
Some folk seem to think it's a non issue. They're wrong. They simply don't ride in a style/manner where it matters.

 

[Fivetones]

I don’t disagree. The technology will have to change before this can be even remotely considered. Closest we’ve seen is the Fazua type system.

I also enjoyed this analysis from Chris Porter, who I suspect you might know personally. It’s sort of on the same lines. It also partly challenges your assertion that it’s all about weight:

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I've spoken to Chris and ridden with him a few times over the years. He's a nice enough guy. I don't actually agree with many of his "ideas" though.
Would I trust a guy who can't manual his own bike design and pretty much always brings motorcycle riding into his arguement when discussing mtb design? No.

I have ridden a Geometron. I quite liked it.. But... It was 3 sizes smaller than Chris would have recommended I ride. (so basically the same geometry/sizing I've ridden for decades)
Unlike Chris. I actually don't crave masses of extra stability and don't really care how well an mtb handles when seated.

BTW. Mojo. Chris' old company also sold, promoted and distributed (early) intense frames in the UK which he also heralded as the best bikes on the market at the time which just so happened to feature pretty much the stupidest slackest seattube angles of their time. He's had little consistency over the years in what he's said. (He does like to rock the boat tho) and although interesting to listen to so it's kinda difficult to trust his view point. Especially as he's now ageing and even less dynamic as a rider than previously.

BTW. I've said for years a dropper seat tube would be an improvement over an dropper post.
This could be done either by using a linkage seat mast or an integrated post in the seat tube.
Each way would be an extremely bold move and any manufacturer bold enough would need to be 100% confident in their design and it's durability. Droppers ATM being the among the most commonly failing components on modern mountain bikes going down this route would be a huge risk.

 

[Fivetones]

I find his interviews interesting but like many folk he’s quite clearly ‘invested’ in his view which is a turn off sometimes in ‘thinkers’. I speak not from an MTB point of view specifically - you’re more experienced to comment on that than me after all - but from a POV that likes to consider alternative views and to question most established and entrenched thought.

 

[Jamsxr]

Some folk seem to think it's a non issue. They're wrong. They simply don't ride in a style/manner where it matters.

That’s a brilliant contradiction ?.. It’s not an issue, it’s a compromise that most people here (surprise, surprise) are willing to make.

 

[Gary]

There's no contradiction.
If there were no issue. There'd be no need to compromise.
As you say @Jamsxr, most Emtb riders are (clearly) willing to make that compromise. Some are completely blind to the issue. others who aren't still prefer the handling of a regular mtb (but obviously enjoy riding both/either)
This wasn't intended as a thread to dish out butt hurt to Emtb riders. Afterall I am one too. I'm just not a deluded fanboi who can't see any negatives.

 

[Zimmerframe]

This wasn't intended as a thread to dish out butt hurt to Emtb riders. Afterall I am one too. I'm just not a deluded fanboi who can't see any negatives.

I'm positively delusional ..

Don't go ruining it with your uncompromised compromises.

 

[S D]

The universal problem with mountain biking is well getting to the top, upon arrival the lighter and longer travel (generally) bike you have the better the ride down. In my case, my "mountain" is 55 minutes of lung and gut busting misery in grannie gear compared to 20 minutes of lung and gut busting misery if I am not a lazy bastard and turbo to the top so I am a EMTB fanboy for this. But in summer I spent two weeks in Les Gets/Morzine and Livigno, I rode the EMTB for one afternoon and put the fat pig of a thing away for the rest of the time.

So what did I ride? My 2002 Specialized Enduro (not ridden since the EMTB arrived), sure it has had some upgrades over time and has a bottom bracket 40m too high, wheelbase 150mm too short and I won't even go into head or seat angles but it weighs 12kg with 170F/150R suspension (using the lifts), hell it's older than half the punters on the mountain! I had forgotten how good it actually was in these conditions and thought wow, so then I rented a carbon Santa Cruz Nomad thinking it was going to make a world of difference, it didn't actually perform much better.

So in conclusion old school bikes are more fun, unless you need to ride up![/
WHS

 

[Swan]

I'll openly tell people that my Levo doesn't descend as well as my Enduro does.. But it also let's me do 2 or 3 laps compared to the Enduro. Both are fun, but if I want to throw moto whips and jump like it's my dirt jump bike, I grab the Enduro. The Levo keeps my from grabbing the moto and let's me still have fun going downhill.

 

[RickBullotta]

I dunno about the core premise here. My Pivot Shuttle definitely descends as well as my Santa Cruz Hightower (and the HT is setup for enduro), and on the flowy twisties I can get my Shuttle through quite fast. The suspension and weight balance on the Shuttle is damn close to perfect. The only issue I have sometimes is a slight bit of push on turns at the limit, mostly due to the weight. But overall, it's pretty dialed.

 

[Gary]

I dunno about the core premise here.

The core premise was NOTHING to do with an Emtb NOT being as quick descending as an mtb.
It's not even about mtbs being quicker through "flowy twisties"
The core premise is simply that Emtb's have different handling traits mtbs and why I happen to prefer mtb handling. I honestly thought I'd made that quite clear... oh well.

 

[Eddy Current]

deristrict the ebike, and put 29er carbon fiber wheels with low resistance tires, you don’t need to go down to have fun anymore

#JustJoking

 

[Gary]

#Suckedenoughofthoseeggsgrandson