900 wh Super Battery !!

[Zimmerframe]

I always though the internal batteries weighed more because they needed to have more structure to deal with the frame flex, some of them are almost used like structural members in the down tubes.

I've never understood it. I always expected them to be lighter as they wouldn't need the protection an external battery needs.

 

[R120]

The battery is generic, the frame maybe not. Half the reason internal battery bikes tend to weigh more is that the frame needs to be beefed up due to the cut outs - obviously the fazua is a lighter system anyway, and other brands have got round this by having non removable batteries, like Norco and focus, or by inserting the battery from the bottom, like Specilized and Whyte.

 

[csj]

If that's the case then is the weight more likely to be around 75g per cell?
ie. putting my wild guess wildly out and this battery closer to ~3750g for the 900wh and 50 cells?

With lighter cells, an interesting quandry for me would be whether i'd prefer 630wh for a similar weight to a 504wh battery or a 500g lighter 504wh battery. I honestly think I'd prefer the latter.

No need to guess, the Samsung cell weighs 69g, not 75g and not 95g.

Also, the dominant 18650 cells haven't changed for years so there aren't 630 Wh packs comparable in weight to 504 Wh. 630 Wh packs are 5p 18650 cells so, by definition, have 25% more cell weight than 504 Wh.

 

[Zimmerframe]

630 Wh packs are 5p 18650 cells

Blimey, they're cheap now.. ???

 

[CjP]

Try riding them instead

hope that helps in future

I did a little while ago, hated it. As Zimmer said felt like I was riding a kiddies Bmx.
18kgs is the sweet spot for me.

 

[Gary]

No need to guess, the Samsung cell weighs 69g, not 75g and not 95g. Surprised the resident expert on everything does not know this.

Where did you find information on what exact cells Olympiacicli are using in these 900wh batteries?

Also, the dominant 18650 cells haven't changed for years so there aren't 630 Wh packs comparable in weight to 504 Wh. 630 Wh packs are 5p 18650 cells so, by definition, have 25% more cell weight than 504 Wh.

Are you saying a 630wh pack could not be made up from the lighter Samsung cells you're talking about?
This seems very strange to me seeing as the 35 x 18wh cells would make a 630wh pack.

 

[Gary]

I did a little while ago, hated it. As Zimmer said felt like I was riding a kiddies Bmx.
18kgs is the sweet spot for me.

You know in the mid 90s street BMX weights crept up to around 16kg for strength but because of this a lot of the riding seen became harsh and unstylish. Much like Emtb is today.
BMX isn't for kiddies. Most kiddies BMXs are generally cheap heavier POS much like a £100 supermarket "mtb"

I actually agree the swetspot for Emtb would be around 17-18kg ie. a similar weight to a DH bike. but we're still a long way off reaching that with a durable bike, proper motor and battery. The Levo SL is probably the best current compromise

What Emtb do you have that's 18kg?

 

[stiv674]

For a 36v battery you would always need ten 18650/21700 batteries in series to make the 36v and then however many in parallel depending on how much capacity you want.

Most would have forty or fifty cells inside, although my Focus internal and tec battery's have thirty 3500mAh 18650 cells in each.

Is it only Specialized that currently use the 21700 cells?

 

[Zimmerframe]

What Emtb do you have that's 18kg?

He has a helium filled Kenevo with a custom battery and nitrogen filled 4.2+++ tyres.

I think he rented an SL a while back to try.

 

[Gary]

For a 36v battery you would always need ten 18650/21700 batteries in series to make the 36v and then however many in parallel depending on how much capacity you want.

Most would have forty or fifty cells inside, although my Focus internal and tec battery's have thirty 3500mAh 18650 cells in each.

Is it only Specialized that currently use the 21700 cells?

Ah... so that would mean with the 18wh samsung batteries @csj is talking about the only configurations could be 180wh, 360wh, 540wh, 740wh and 900wh?
That's interesting. Thanks.
I'd definitely be interested in a lighter 540wh battery

My useless old eyes have been widened slightly

 

[CjP]

You know in the mid 90s street BMX weights crept up to around 16kg for strength but because of this a lot of the riding seen became harsh and unstylish. Much like Emtb is today.
BMX isn't for kiddies. Most kiddies BMXs are generally cheap heavier POS much like a £100 supermarket "mtb"

I actually agree the swetspot for Emtb would be around 17-18kg ie. a similar weight to a DH bike. but we're still a long way off reaching that with a durable bike, proper motor and battery. The Levo SL is probably the best current compromise

What Emtb do you have that's 18kg?

Oh I don’t have a lightweight emtb yet but I have been playing around with the SL lately and I’m loving it. It’s a little underpowered for my liking but it’s just enough to keep me interested. I find the weight to be just heavy enough to keep that planted feeling and just light enough to throw it around.

 

[Gary]

TBF weight balance, suspension and geometry all effect stability Vs nimbleness and in reality is a lot more complicated than just choosing a "sweet spot" overall weight.
And don't forget the effect of build/component choice
Eg. the SL you rode would be way more stable fitted with DH wheels/tyres and inserts. and way more nimble with lightweight XC tyres and wheels.
It's always a compromise.

 

[CjP]

TBF weight balance, suspension and geometry all effect stability Vs nimbleness and in reality is a lot more complicated than just choosing a "sweet spot" overall weight.
And don't forget the effect of build/component choice
Eg. the SL you rode would be way more stable fitted with DH wheels/tyres and inserts. and way more nimble with lightweight XC tyres and wheels.
It's always a compromise.

Oh I tried a few components and I’ve almost found the sweet spot for me.

 

[stiv674]

Ah... so that would mean with the 18wh samsung batteries @csj is talking about the only configurations could be 180wh, 360wh, 540wh, 740wh and 900wh?
That's interesting. Thanks.
I'd definitely be interested in a lighter 540wh battery

My useless old eyes have been widened slightly

Yes something like that... ?

I doubt it's possible but it would be great if the internal Focus 18650 cells could be swapped for 21700 cells, giving the 540wh you suggested

 

[csj]

Where did you find information on what exact cells Olympiacicli are using in these 900wh batteries?

The packs have to made from cells that are available and we know what the cells are because there is only one choice. Maybe the supplier is Samsung and maybe it's LG, but they are the same size and weight so for this purpose it doesn't matter.

Are you saying a 630wh pack could not be made up from the lighter Samsung cells you're talking about?
This seems very strange to me seeing as the 35 x 18wh cells would make a 630wh pack.

What voltage options are there for a 35 cell pack? Do you understand this issue? Do you accept that a 630 Wh pack would need to provide the same voltage as the 504 Wh it replaces?

EDIT: I see this has already been addressed. Yes, the pack requires multiples of ten cells.

 

[Varaxis]

Well I had a thoroughly enjoyable 52 mile ride today, no doubt looking like a styless pie (whatever the fuck that is)

I have absolutely no interest in 'analogue' bikes, bring on the bigger battery's.

How do you get that mileage? I did a 63 mile ride yesterday and 20 miles had to be done without battery power. I weigh 140 lbs and am not unfit, keeping it in eco. Would've enjoyed it more if I had more battery. I did 50 miles before, and 69 miles on the road, but that was when the battery was fresher (6500+ mi on the odo now).

 

[Zimmerframe]

How do you get that mileage? I did a 63 mile ride yesterday and 20 miles had to be done without battery power. I weigh 140 lbs and am not unfit, keeping it in eco. Would've enjoyed it more if I had more battery. I did 50 miles before, and 69 miles on the road, but that was when the battery was fresher (6500+ mi on the odo now).

Everyone rides differently and everyones terrain is different. It's pointless ever comparing your range performance with someone elses, they might be on much flatter ground, which is smoother, travelling much slower and have their assistance settings set much lower (ie, not default eco). I just got back from a thrash, every muscle aches like hell and the battery was flat in 11 miles ...

 

[billwarwick]

Too many numbers for me in this thread I’m afraid. I’m off to the pub , which isn’t open but yes it is . How weird is that? Big garden tho....

 

[Zimmerframe]

Too many numbers for me in this thread I’m afraid. I’m off to the pub , which isn’t open but yes it is . How weird is that? Big garden tho....

Make sure you get your pint in a euro 500ml glass, which would be like a 21700 .. rather than a uk pint 440ml , which would be like an 18650 ...

 

[billwarwick]

Make sure you get your pint in a euro 500ml glass, which would be like a 21700 .. rather than a uk pint 440ml , which would be like an 18650 ...

Oh yeah...hadn’t thought of that.... damn...

 

[stiv674]

How do you get that mileage? I did a 63 mile ride yesterday and 20 miles had to be done without battery power. I weigh 140 lbs and am not unfit, keeping it in eco. Would've enjoyed it more if I had more battery. I did 50 miles before, and 69 miles on the road, but that was when the battery was fresher (6500+ mi on the odo now).

That was on my Focus using both the TEC battery (fully depleted) and internal battery (80% used) It was very windy, the last 15 miles or so were into a strong headwind. Also about 4200ft of ascent.

 

[stiv674]

Make sure you get your pint in a euro 500ml glass, which would be like a 21700 .. rather than a uk pint 440ml , which would be like an 18650 ...

But would they weigh the same...

 

[Zimmerframe]

But would they weigh the same...

Depends on the head .....

 

[billwarwick]

Depends on the head .....

You got to get lucky sooner or later....

 

[stiv674]

I'd be very wary of doing that. With @Gary s libido, he might get ? goggles and suggest a shag, you don't know what got left behind from the sex changes.

I said 'a' pint, not buying him enough for that

 

[CjP]

So yeah those 900w batteries....

 

[Zimmerframe]

So yeah those 900w batteries....

Do we just want more initially .. or do we want it to maintain the capacity we buy ?

I guess we need to see if someone starts mass producing some lithium cells dry battery electrode technology and then dumping them into e-bikes.

 

[CjP]

Na 700 is enough for me right now. I’d rather a heap of 160w/h with the ability to connect together so I can take my bike anywhere. Once the battery tech gets smaller it could be a much better solution.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Na 700 is enough for me right now. I’d rather a heap of 160w/h with the ability to connect together so I can take my bike anywhere. Once the battery tech gets smaller it could be a much better solution.

I do wonder how many years down the line it will be that we look back and think 500wh ? .. really, my phone has that ... you must have needed to charge the bike every day !

 

[CjP]

True I enjoy taking my nephew down the technological memory lane. He freaks out when I tell him things like before the internet people had a backbone.