900 wh Super Battery !!

[Gavalar]

Interesting, www.olympiacicli.it have just released a potential game changer, a 900wh battery with a range of 290 kilometres and it weighs the same as a 625wh battery.

 

[Gary]

900wh would not give anywhere near a 290km range unless ridden on a perfecly flat road with no wind resistance and at a very low assistance level. ie. you might as well be riding a normal bike (at least then you might not fall asleep from boredom)

Funnily enough their claim of weighing the same as a 630wh battery doesn't actually state a weight...

Record lightness

. PowerNine 900Wh does not affect the overall weight of the bicycle: its weight is the same as that of a 630Wh battery produced according to earlier technology.

What "earlier technology" are they even refering to?

More capacity, same footprint

. To achieve the outstanding capacity of 900Wh, thanks to which this product ranks far above the average, 50 automotive-derived cells were used; despite these enhanced specifications, the battery occupies virtually the same space as any integrated battery.

They then state on the actual bike spec webpage

The 50 cells develop the outstanding capacity of 900Wh taking up virtually the same space as a common integrated battery, thanks to a careful arrangement of the cells resulting in a very harmonious, compact sized slanted tube shape.

So it sounds like it's not even any smaller at all, they're simply proud of the patern they arranged the cells in inside their downtube and the downtubes profile.
The actual battery looks to be pretty damn huge

Using basic arithmetic a 900wh battery made up from 50 cells would mean each cell had a capacity of 18wh. a quick google and current automotive 18wh cells seem to weight somewhere between 95-120g each.
So if we are so bold as to guess 95g as the weight of the lightest affordable cells this would mean a total battery cell weight of 4750g. (NOT INCLUDING WIRING OR ELECTRONICS or CASE)
If that's the case that's going to be at least 2kg heavier than a standard 504wh external battery (which does incl all electronics, casing, coupling etc.)

If their "Super battery" really were the game changer they seem to be trying to portray don't you think they'd have actually been realistic about the range and less vague about the weight?

There's no mention of the full bike's weight anywhere on their website either.
Being a fairly standard Aluminium framed FS Emtb with an 85 (or100)Nm motor I would be very surprised if the full bike were less than 25kg nevermind actually light.

Cynical? Yes. Very.

 

[Frank_Denmark]

As I often do long and unplanned rides, I think this is some the best news for eMTB for a long time
I also often do the 2x20 km transfer from home til trails at the eMTB. But then I have to be easy on the power and use ECO. With 900w I can still ride the trails for hours

It's like the old days, where You have to charge You iPhone during the day - but now You only need nighttime charging. I want a 900w battery now - and a spare 350w for days at the bike park.

Only worry that the bike is becoming to heavy

 

[Gavalar]

As I often do long and unplanned rides, I think this is some the best news for eMTB for a long time
I also often do the 2x20 km transfer from home til trails at the eMTB. But then I have to be easy on the power and use ECO. With 900w I can still ride the trails for hours

It's like the old days, where You have to charge You iPhone during the day - but now You only need nighttime charging. I want a 900w battery now - and a spare 350w for days at the bike park.

Only worry that the bike is becoming to heavy

I agree with the weight issue, still, it's good to see other brands, I have never heard of Olympia, developing larger capacity batteries, it may not be perfect, but what is when it comes to eBike technology as it moves so quickly, but they are at least pushing what is possible, its not all about Specialized etc.

 

[R120]

Its perfectly possible to put massive batteries into E-Bikes - the issue is how they impact handling and any compromises on the design.

Reisse and Muller have been making dual battery touring bikes for a while, their Super Delite range has the ability to run up to 1125WH using in frame batteries

Superdelite mountain – Mountain climber | Riese & Müller

No destination too high, no ride too far, no descent too steep.

www.r-m.de

 

[Gary]

Stuffing frames full of moar and moar battery and weight is a regression as far as I'lm concerned.
I'm riding and enjoying my normal bikes more and more because I'm simply no longer enjoying the downsides of the excess weight of my Eeb. and it's one of the lightest of the shimano motored FS Eebs you'll find.

The hype and knock-on *need* effect of the new 630wh batteries has gotten pretty much every manufacturer trying to increase range.
I'm personally not interested in adding a kilo to ANY bike if I can help it and would honestly rather climb the extra 900ft the increased battery would give with my motor switched off.

 

[Gavalar]

Stuffing frames full of moar and moar battery and weight is a regression as far as I'lm concerned.
I'm riding and enjoying my normal bikes more and more because I'm simply no longer enjoying the downsides of the excess weight of my Eeb. and it's one of the lightest of the shimano motored FS Eebs you'll find.

The hype and knock-on *need* effect of the new 630wh batteries has gotten pretty much every manufacturer trying to increase range.
I'm personally not interested in adding a kilo to ANY bike if I can help it and would honestly rather climb the extra 900ft the increased battery would give with my motor switched off.

Totally agree, last month I sold my Specialized Levo Expert, this month I have sold my Pivot Shuttle, I'm now back on my analogue Ibis Hd4 and loving it, the one thing the e-bikes did for me was massively increase my cardio, I had a Rocky Mountain Altitude Powerplay on order for next month but have cancelled it purely because I'm loving my analogue riding, that's not to say I'm done with e-bikes but I'm going to wait 12 months to see how much they progress, if at all, before taking the plunge again, enjoy your riding.

 

[Gary]

Ebikes reduced my fitness (but cardio less than top end)

You can stop referring to your Ibis as "analogue" now.

 

[Gavalar]

Ebikes reduced my fitness (but cardio less than top end)

You can stop referring to your Ibis as "analogue" now.

Whilst riding locally this morning, Ilkley Moor, I saw 2 E riders just cycling, no body language no bike craft / skill, they were just spinning like hamsters, I looked at my pal and asked if thats how we looked only a few weeks ago, he said that we had more input but generally, yes, I just said, how fucking dull, long live the analogue.

 

[Gary]

Please stop calling your bike that? It makes me cringe (for you*)


Emtb riders riding like styless pies is definitely a common sight.
but so is short(er) riders on fashionably loooong (sometimes XL) bikes they can't control properly.
Mtb (E or not) is a fashion parade


*not just because it's an Ibis

 

[R120]

I dunno, I was surprised yesterday by the amount of riders on shit bikes with no concept of mtb fashion out in the Surrey Hills, who where clearly in no position to admire my amazing kit and bike and bow down before as I breezed past them - honestly no respect these days

 

[Gavalar]

Please stop calling your bike that? It makes me cringe (for you*)


Emtb riders riding like styless pies is definitely a common sight.
but so is short(er) riders on fashionably loooong (sometimes XL) bikes they can't control properly.
Mtb (E or not) is a fashion parade


*not just because it's an Ibis

Best bike I've ever ridden, it's my third, I crossed to the electric side for a while but I much prefer the original freedom of Mountain Biking and the associated fun.

 

[R120]

I actually like the freedom of the EMTB, I find I ride it where other MTB riders dont really go, and its when I am on the more regular tail/trail centers where it makes less sense unless you are somewhere doing lots of short laps, or time pressured. The ability to get a lot fo riding done in a short time is still the greatest benefit to me of an EMTB, as being self employed with young kids, time isn't something I have a lot of.

 

[Gary]

TBH I've never ridden an Ibis that hasn't left me feeling underwhelmed. and I've ridden a lot of Ibi (that is plural of Ibis right?) Making fun of ibis owners has been a pretty solid pursuit of mine for over a decade. So don't take it personally. @Gavalar
My preference is fairly non fashion based and I'm far too long in the tooth to ever think any bike is the "Best bike I've ever ridden" Every bike has it's positive and negative traits. Most make me smile tho

@R120 I've always ridden loads of places others don't. There's not a single off road piece of riding (or potential riding) I haven't explored by bike within a 15 mile radius of here. I even have local trails I built that no one other than me rides. An Eeb definitely makes it easier to just follow your nose and discover new riding but it's honestly something I've always done.
As you say Eebs can be absolutely wonderful for when you don't have time/energy for a decent normal mtb ride. TBH before the Eebs my roadbike would be my go to for that situation, and it's now gone from about 4000miles a year to 2000 to my least ridden bike (Just 3 rides this year) while my Eeb has probably gone up to around 4000 now I commute on it. (Commuting on it has def killed the passion to ride it in my free time)

 

[Gavalar]

I'm 54, I rode nothing other than Santa Cruz from 85 to 2000, from then on I rode Intense, GT, Specialized, Foes and Turner, for the past 7 years, other than Specialized Levo Expert and a Pivot Shuttle, I have ridden Ibis, and for me, at this moment, my current HD4 is the best bike I've ridden, maybe that's because I appreciate it more than I did my previous bikes, either way, it puts a smile on my face and that for me is what it's all about.
You can take the piss out of my being an Ibis owner all you like, I'm Yorkshire born and bred, we have thick skin, we say what we like and like what we bloody well say ?

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I could tell you were sound

 

[Gary]

But... who's the young boy band member in your Avitar?

 

[knut7]

Funnily enough their claim of weighing the same as a 630wh battery doesn't actually state a weight...

What "earlier technology" are they even refering to?

They then state on the actual bike spec webpage

So it sounds like it's not even any smaller at all, they're simply proud of the patern they arranged the cells in inside their downtube and the downtubes profile.
The actual battery looks to be pretty damn huge

Using basic arithmetic a 900wh battery made up from 50 cells (...)

Yeah, good questions. This has to be made with the 5000mAh 21700 cells (3,6V*5Ah*50=900Wh)
It is difficult believing a 50 cell 21700 weighs the same as the current 50 cell (3,5Ah) 18650 batteries. Like the Bosch 625 or the new 630Wh Shimano BT8036. These "new automotive" cells have the same energy density as the smaller 18650 cells used in most emtb batteries since 2016.

 

[Gavalar]

But... who's the young boy band member in your Avitar?

That was taken 6 years ago, we wether well in Yorkshire, something in the water or ?

 

[Gary]

Yeah, good questions. This has to be made with the 5000mAh 21700 cells (3,6V*5Ah*50=900Wh)

If that's the case then is the weight more likely to be around 75g per cell?
ie. putting my wild guess wildly out and this battery closer to ~3750g for the 900wh and 50 cells?

With lighter cells, an interesting quandry for me would be whether i'd prefer 630wh for a similar weight to a 504wh battery or a 500g lighter 504wh battery. I honestly think I'd prefer the latter.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I honestly think I'd prefer the latter.

For me .. it would be the 630 .... but I know no better ..

I picked up a couple of mates carbon nancy bikes a couple of days ago .. they felt like little childrens bikes ..

Together they weighed less than one nice solid Kenevo.

Rediculous ! it must be like riding a baloon ..

 

[Gary]

I picked up a couple of mates carbon nancy bikes a couple of days ago .. they felt like little childrens bikes ..

Try riding them instead

hope that helps in future

 

[knut7]

If that's the case then is the weight more likely to be around 75g per cell?
ie. putting my wild guess wildly out and this battery closer to ~3750g for the 900wh and 50 cells?

With lighter cells, an interesting quandry for me would be whether i'd prefer 630wh for a similar weight to a 504wh battery or a 500g lighter 504wh battery. I honestly think I'd prefer the latter.

The Samsung 50E is 69g. And one could argue it's a 4900mAh rather than a 5000mAh cell.

Samsung 50E capacity test - 5000mAh or not?

21700, 5000mAh, 50E, 18650, battery, capacity test, datasheet pdf, DIY ebike, DIY powerwall, flashlight battery, INR21700-50E, M50, 48G, NCR18650GA, Queen Battery, review, Samsung 50E, Samsung, Tesla battery,

www.thunderheartreviews.com

Batteries like the external 500Wh Bosch and Shimanos. Has a cell weight of about 2kg. With a total weight of 2.5-2.6kgs - the casing, bms, wiring, etc is 5-600grams.

The newer internal batteries are heavier. Possibly because of more sensors and better fire safety. The Shimano BT8035 500Wh internal battery is claimed 2.9kg. So it's about 300 gr heavier than the external battery. Cell weight is likely about the same for those two batteries, so the casing etc is 900gr for the BT8035 internal.

With that in mind, a 900Wh 50 cell battery would have a cell weight of 69g*50=3450g. The casing would have to be significantly bigger than the BT8035 casing. So I'm guessing no less than 1kg, most likely way more. That adds up to 4450g as an absolute minimum. I believe your estimate of 4750g is a better guess.

BTW, I would definitely prefer a more lightweight 500Wh battery over a 630Wh one at 2.6-2.9kg

 

[Gary]

Thanks @knut7
Very informative

 

[stiv674]

Well I had a thoroughly enjoyable 52 mile ride today, no doubt looking like a styless pie (whatever the fuck that is)

I have absolutely no interest in 'analogue' bikes, bring on the bigger battery's.

 

[R120]

I always though the internal batteries weighed more because they needed to have more structure to deal with the frame flex, some of them are almost used like structural members in the down tubes.

 

[knut7]

I always though the internal batteries weighed more because they needed to have more structure to deal with the frame flex, some of them are almost used like structural members in the down tubes.

I'm not sure why the weight has increased. When I asked Giant about their pretty heavy Energypak, they said the battery did not contribute to frame rigidity, their bikes could be ridden w/o the battery. I wanna ask Shimano about this too, but they launched their new batteries without inviting anyone

 

[Gary]

I always though the internal batteries weighed more because they needed to have more structure to deal with the frame flex, some of them are almost used like structural members in the down tubes.

TBF it must depend on the particular frame design. An eternal battery mounted on the top of a downtube is almost never going to be struck while riding unless a full on tumble where the bike lands on it's side into debris.
The bike featured in this thread's "internal" (it's not really fully internal, is it?) battery case runs the full line of the underside of the bikes downtube. ie. right in the firing line for any rock flung up by the front tyre. that surely needs to be tougher (heavier) than a plastic external battery case.

 

[R120]

TBF it must depend on the particular frame design. An eternal battery mounted on the top of a downtube is almost never going to be struck while riding unless a full on tumble where the bike lands on it's side into debris.
The bike featured in this thread's "internal" (it's not really fully internal, is it?) battery case runs the full line of the underside of the bikes downtube. ie. right in the firing line for any rock flung up by the front tyre. that surely needs to be tougher (heavier) than a plastic external battery case.

Exactly, most of them form the bottom of the downtube so to speak, so must need extra bulk as a result

 

[Gavalar]

Exactly, most of them form the bottom of the downtube so to speak, so must need extra bulk as a result

Must be frame specific, or not, the Lapierre e Zesty can be ridden as an e-bike, or, remove the motor and the battery and it's back to a regular bike, what fills the whole, nothing but a plastic cover, which by the way then let's you utilise the battery space to stash drinks, tools or whatever takes your fancy.