2022 Bosch BES3 Motor

[Mohawk3a]

I’ve heard rumors of Bosch having a more powerful motor with a 750w battery in 2022. Has anyone heard anything similar?

 

[Helim]

My dealer just told the same.. new 48v motor with 750w battery, but he doesnt know anything more. Honestly I see very difficult with the actual cell technology make a 750w 48v battery and decent weight and size.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

My dealer just told the same.. new 48v motor with 750w battery, but he doesnt know anything more. Honestly I see very difficult with the actual cell technology make a 750w 48v battery and decent weight and size.

Surely it'll just be a 15.625Ah battery pack (48v 750Wh = 15.625Ah), so potentially lighter (less cells) than what they have now (36v 625Wh = 17.4Ah pack)...

 

[Paul Mac]

I was hoping this new battery would be compatible with the current motor, looks like not if there's talk of a new motor as well ☹

 

[knut7]

This is more interesting than I thought! To get 48V, we need 13 cells (3.6V) in series. Using the current chemistry we have a few alternatives:

18650 cells:
750 Wh / 52 cells / 3.6V = 4Ah. There are no 18650 cells widely available with more than ~3.6Ah.
750Wh / 65 cells / 3.6V = 3.2Ah. There are (old) 3.2Ah cells on the market, but why on earth would Bosch use them?

2170(0) cells: 750 Wh
750Wh / 39 cells / 3.6V = 5.3Ah. There are no 2170 cells over 5Ah widely available, to my knowledge.
No point calculating with 26 or 52 cells, they would be nowhere near 750Wh.

So how will Bosch achieve this? I made a video about the development in battery tech last summer. A manufacturer leaked some info about new batteries hitting the market in about 2023. These would have an improved energy density of about 15%. This was pre Corona, so who knows how that affected the timeline.

A 10% increase in energy density would put the 18650 cells at 4Ah, which will enable a 52 cell 750Wh battery. A 10% increase increase would put the 2170 cells at 5.5Ah. The latter configuration seems less likely. I'm thinking we could see a new 2023 Bosch motor and battery being launched some time 2022, with improved batteries. This is pure speculation, I've heard nothing of this untill I read this thread.

 

[Paul Mac]

I'm holding fire on any new bike purchase until this all settles.
I would love a new Trek Rail with new motor and 750wh battery , with no weight or size penalty ?

 

[R120]

I have heard rumours of the bigger battery too.

Worth noting that their are city bikes/touring bikes using the Bosch motors which have a 725wh battery though not sure if it’s made by Bosch or third party.

 

[Mohawk3a]

I wish all the top brands would start offering a water bottle type extender battery. I love having the option to take an extender battery for longer rides.

 

[mak]

Is it just me that's lost the plot on needing a bigger battery, honestly my bosch 625 gives me several rides, 26 miles, 15 miles, 20 miles etc, i generally get between 60 and 75 miles out of a charge.
My guess is my rides are not long enough and my surroundings are not interesting enough ( no mountains) and maybe I don't use big power modes but i cant help but think my rides must be short and dull

 

[Mohawk3a]

Is it just me that's lost the plot on needing a bigger battery, honestly my bosch 625 gives me several rides, 26 miles, 15 miles, 20 miles etc, i generally get between 60 and 75 miles out of a charge.
My guess is my rides are not long enough and my surroundings are not interesting enough ( no mountains) and maybe I don't use big power modes but i cant help but think my rides must be short and dull

This is the most I can get with a full battery on my Trek rail when riding in tour mode. I wish I had more battery life for, longer rides, occasionally shifting in boost for strava segments, and not having to worry about running the bike dead.
I could ride in eco mode but I don’t really enjoy riding a 49lb bike in eco mode.

 

[fenwick458]

Is it just me that's lost the plot on needing a bigger battery, honestly my bosch 625 gives me several rides, 26 miles, 15 miles, 20 miles etc, i generally get between 60 and 75 miles out of a charge.
My guess is my rides are not long enough and my surroundings are not interesting enough ( no mountains) and maybe I don't use big power modes but i cant help but think my rides must be short and dull

well I would say you are probably in the minority.
did 40km today with 1400mt climbing and only just got back home, and I really didn't think it was a long ride out.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Is it just me that's lost the plot on needing a bigger battery, honestly my bosch 625 gives me several rides, 26 miles, 15 miles, 20 miles etc, i generally get between 60 and 75 miles out of a charge.
My guess is my rides are not long enough and my surroundings are not interesting enough ( no mountains) and maybe I don't use big power modes but i cant help but think my rides must be short and dull

I just got back from a fairly leisurely rainy 29k, 1000m, 1.5 hours. Last hill to the house was flat. (Kenevo 504wh - now 457wh due to degradation)

I was absolutely wrecked at 800m though - which made my decision that the idea of buying a Light weight bike with a mini battery isn't for me. If you always ride fresh, maybe it works, but if you ride after doing physical things all day then it's not for me I guess. Being able to use trail and turbo more would have been nice - so yes ... GIVE ME MORE WH !

 

[mak]

I need to look into what kind of elevation gains I'm getting on my rides, that's the battery killer but I generally ride in eco with the odd bump to tour mode. My Garmin watch tells me I'm climbing some of the steeper hills with a gradient value of 15, not actually sure what that means but they hurt lol. I do those in eco.

I think I need to get out into the wilderness, throw the bike into the van and head off to somewhere interesting and enjoy some full power outings instead of riding the same old trails from my door step in eco or off

 

[Doomanic]

but i cant help but think my rides must be short and dull

Certainly sounds like it.

I've flattened my 625Wh battery in under 15 miles several times, usually with 1300-1500m of climbing, all in EMTB but pressing on, so using Turbo levels of power for most of the climbs.

I could ride in eco mode but I don’t really enjoy riding a 49lb bike in eco mode.

Agreed. I didn't spend £5K on a bike to ride it slowly.

I think I need to get out into the wilderness, throw the bike into the van and head off to somewhere interesting and enjoy some full power outings instead of riding the same old trails from my door step in eco or off

Happy to take you on a tour of the Forest of Dean some time.

 

[Paul Mac]

Managed this with 1 bar left

 

[Zimmerframe]

Managed this with 1 bar left

Just to confirm, you had one bar of battery left or you were on a pub crawl and ran out still with one bar on your list ?

 

[Paul Mac]

Just to confirm, you had one bar of battery left or you were on a pub crawl and ran out still with one bar on your list ?

Unfortunately it was your first scenario, the second sounds much better ?

 

[Dirtnvert]

Thats pretty sweet. I milked a lot of eco out of my 540w decoy/e8000 yesterday. Probably as much trail as eco in the end. Less than 10 minutes of boost over 3+ hrs. I had more than 1 bar left and got in 30km and 1000m. 2 sweet laps in but i really wanted a 3rd but didnt want to risk pedaling across town without assist. 2 x 540 , all trail mode with some boost, 5 laps and 2000m vert would be tidy. Conditiins were prime but access was steeper than normal avoiding work zones

 

[Jeffrey]

This is more interesting than I thought! To get 48V, we need 13 cells (3.6V) in series. Using the current chemistry we have a few alternatives:

18650 cells:
750 Wh / 52 cells / 3.6V = 4Ah. There are no 18650 cells widely available with more than ~3.6Ah.
750Wh / 65 cells / 3.6V = 3.2Ah. There are (old) 3.2Ah cells on the market, but why on earth would Bosch use them?

2170(0) cells: 750 Wh
750Wh / 39 cells / 3.6V = 5.3Ah. There are no 2170 cells over 5Ah widely available, to my knowledge.
No point calculating with 26 or 52 cells, they would be nowhere near 750Wh.

So how will Bosch achieve this? I made a video about the development in battery tech last summer. A manufacturer leaked some info about new batteries hitting the market in about 2023. These would have an improved energy density of about 15%. This was pre Corona, so who knows how that affected the timeline.

A 10% increase in energy density would put the 18650 cells at 4Ah, which will enable a 52 cell 750Wh battery. A 10% increase increase would put the 2170 cells at 5.5Ah. The latter configuration seems less likely. I'm thinking we could see a new 2023 Bosch motor and battery being launched some time 2022, with improved batteries. This is pure speculation, I've heard nothing of this untill I read this thread.

That's a good and correct analysis. 48V / 750Wh looks not possible with current 21700 or 18650 cell capacity.

On my opinion there will be no new motor for 2022, the gen4 is "only" 2 years old and still very competitive.
I think they will only come with a new 720Wh / 36V battery with the same form factor as the PowerTube 625 (so compatible with all gen4 / 625Wh bikes).
And a new firmware advertised at 90Nm... but only for a few seconds or something like that!

So a lot of expected YouTube videos on ebike channels comparing the 85Nm and the 90Nm firmware by climbing steep hills to prove the difference

 

[Jeffrey]

Surely it'll just be a 15.625Ah battery pack (48v 750Wh = 15.625Ah), so potentially lighter (less cells) than what they have now (36v 625Wh = 17.4Ah pack)...

No, please don't mix the Ah capacity and the weight!
The weight of a battery is not proportional to the Ah, but is proportional to the Ah * V (= Wh) !!!

 

[Mohawk3a]

That's a good and correct analysis. 48V / 750Wh looks not possible with current 21700 or 18650 cell capacity.

On my opinion there will be no new motor for 2022, the gen4 is "only" 2 years old and still very competitive.
I think they will only come with a new 720Wh / 36V battery with the same form factor as the PowerTube 625 (so compatible with all gen4 / 625Wh bikes).
And a new firmware advertised at 90Nm... but only for a few seconds or something like that!

So a lot of expected YouTube videos on ebike channels comparing the 85Nm and the 90Nm firmware by climbing steep hills to prove the difference

I wish more bike manufactures would start integrating extender batteries like the turbo levo sl

Hope your opinion on the Bosch is correct. 720w battery and 90nm firmware would be a nice upgrade. Would be nice to upgrade the firmware on my trek rail to 90nm pop in a 720w battery if it’s compatible.

I watched a lot of ebike videos comparing the Bosh 85nm and Brose 90nm motors. After watching videos and hearing guys hype up the Bosch motor, I ordered a 2021 9.9 trek rail. To my surprise, the trek rail isnt as fast uphill as my 2019 SW Levo. I’ve run both bikes on boost through several different segments on Strava, and my levo is a little bit quicker on every segment. I personally think this has more to due with the programming than the peak power of each motor. The Bosch power seems to ramp up and down slower than the levo. The levo seems to come on like a light switch and doesn’t let up until you hit 20mph.

 

[Josepma]

I have seen ebike catalogs 2022 and bosch has 750 wh.
Screen, kiox, controls all new and the engine has improvements but I don't know what they are. By the way, in some models the kiox will be completely integrated into the frame of the ebike.

 

[range_anxiety]

I have seen ebike catalogs 2022 and bosch has 750 wh.
Screen, kiox, controls all new and the engine has improvements but I don't know what they are. By the way, in some models the kiox will be completely integrated into the frame of the ebike.

Would be super interested in knowing what manufactures catalogs you have seen?.. between new controls and integrating kiox display, that would address the remaining complaints about Bosch. Bigger battery and engine refinements would be the "cherry on top" of a all ready excellent system!!! Can't wait for the announcements to come!!!

 

[Dirtnvert]

Im pretty sold on the bosch system as it is. The only thing theyre not leading in is the app/system control/computer display end of things

 

[jbrown15]

Would be super interested in knowing what manufactures catalogs you have seen?.. between new controls and integrating kiox display, that would address the remaining complaints about Bosch. Bigger battery and engine refinements would be the "cherry on top" of a all ready excellent system!!! Can't wait for the announcements to come!!!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Josepma probably works at a bike shop or has a friend that does. So basically he's not really suppose to say anything about which brands catalogs he's seem.....lol

One word for you "embargo"

 

[Josepma]

I don't work in a bike shop, but I have a friend in a shop. I have seen new connections in bosch motor with my own eyes. It will have a separate entrance for light in front and behind and one connection for battery extension.

. A new screen and a new controller. All this together with a new 750 wh battery. The only question I have is whether the interior of the engine has new features or not

 

[Jeffrey]

I don't work in a bike shop, but I have a friend in a shop. I have seen new connections in bosch motor with my own eyes. It will have a separate entrance for light in front and behind and one connection for battery extension.

. A new screen and a new controller. All this together with a new 750 wh battery. The only question I have is whether the interior of the engine has new features or not

The gen4 motor already have two connectors for the lights, and the battery extension also exists with the special cable to connect two batteries to the motor... nothing new here.

 

[Bomble]

I don't work in a bike shop, but I have a friend in a shop. I have seen new connections in bosch motor with my own eyes. It will have a separate entrance for light in front and behind and one connection for battery extension.

. A new screen and a new controller. All this together with a new 750 wh battery. The only question I have is whether the interior of the engine has new features or not

Any idea if that 750 battery is backwards compatible?

 

[neiloxford]

The picture of this bike is the same as the 2021 model, but details show the 750 battery so might be backwards compatible, although engine might be new ? CX BES3 ?

BULLS Copperhead EVO AM 1 2022 | GREATEBIKE.EU

motor: Bosch Bosch Performance CX BES3 battery: Bosch Power Tube 750 Wh size frame: S, M, L, XL number of gears: 10 display: LED fork ...

greatebike.eu

EDIT: Just noticed the image is for illustration

 

[knut7]

I have seen ebike catalogs 2022 and bosch has 750 wh.
Screen, kiox, controls all new and the engine has improvements but I don't know what they are. By the way, in some models the kiox will be completely integrated into the frame of the ebike.

Then it seems very likely this is a 36V system. A 60 cell battery with 3500mAh cells is ~750Wh. A Kiox integrated into the frame sounds interesting, something like the new Specialized TCU.