2021 will be a Super EMTB year

[frankenbike]

Reading lots of posts about inferior or lack of seals on motors (and having experienced this myself) - realized how ridiculous this is since it is an easy design solution. Just look at fork, shock and dropper post stanchion seals - OK yeah there is a difference since the the motor shaft is rotating but still this is not some esoteric technology (think marine applications or just automobiles for that matter). Manufacturers really need to step up and apply good seals....or is this part of a planned obsolescence strategy?

 

[Giff]

These are expensive bikes and a potential target for theft, so on any bike that can be paired to a phone or watch, it would be good to have the option of automatically disabling the motor when the device is out of range. GPS tracking is well and good, but I'd rather not have the bike nicked in the first place.

+1 for that idea.

 

[Nifty 56]

Genuinely durable (and replaceable) motor bearings from Shimano.
The current design is a joke!

in reality it'll be 2026 by the time Shimano fully updates the E8000 and the bearings will still be shit/non replaceable.

I haven't been on here for ages as I sold my E-Sommet last November. Which motor bearings do you mean? Puts me off getting another bike with a Shimano motor. :-(

 

[Gary]

Main axle bearings.

 

[Nifty 56]

Main axle bearings.

Right... but how come they are not replaceable?

 

[#lazy]

You’re all raving mad ?

 

[Nifty 56]

Main axle bearings.

@Gary ... Found a thread with some of your comments about the motors.

 

[Donn]

when we could expect 2021 model ebikes to be released? September or earlier? looking for a new YT or Commencal meta Power with upgraded motor battery...don't want to buy now and later cry ... bad thing I will miss fun riding now one...but thinking to go in demo days if it will be possible this year ...

 

[urastus]

Reliable motor, battery (connection), and speed sensors; reliable for at least 10,000 km.

 

[MrBrownstone]

Reliable motor, battery (connection), and speed sensors; reliable for at least 10,000 km.

E8000 got all that already.

 

[urastus]

E8000 got all that already.

This is my first ebike, but I've already had sensor issues. And I think shimano is also well represented in the motor failure department. I have an e8000 and just assumed it would be trouble free for 10,000 km; that would be awesome, but experience from others suggests otherwise.

 

[MrBrownstone]

This is my first ebike, but I've already had sensor issues. And I think shimano is also well represented in the motor failure department. I have an e8000 and just assumed it would be trouble free for 10,000 km; that would be awesome, but experience from others suggests otherwise.

The issues seem to be minuscule compared to most other brands tho...

The 2021 Shimano system may have issues being a 1st year product.

 

[urastus]

The issues seem to be minuscule compared to most other brands tho...

The 2021 Shimano system may have issues being a 1st year product.

Main bearing play seems pretty major. I don't think they are user replaceable, or even dealer replaceable.

 

[Zimmerframe]

The issues seem to be minuscule compared to most other brands tho...

The 2021 Shimano system may have issues being a 1st year product.

I think it's probably something like (12 month window) :

Bosch/Mahle < 3% failure rate
Yamaha 4% failure rate
Shimano e8000 5% failure rate (higher for e7000)
Brose 7% failure rate

That's not from official numbers, just my correlation over time. (so probably complete bullcr4p).

I have a brose

They all can fail, we're still pretty early days on the MTB technology/longevity side. We all hope our's won't .. maybe it will ... maybe it won't. Odds are, it won't actually fail no matter which brand it is.

EDIT : After further investigation and compiling figures from more sources, the Brose failure rate is about 4 times the Bosch failure rate.

 

[OldGoatMTB]

I think it's probably something like (12 month window) :

Bosch/Mahle < 3% failure rate
Yamaha 4% failure rate
Shimano e8000 5% failure rate (higher for e7000)
Brose 7% failure rate

That's not from official numbers, just my correlation over time. (so probably complete bullcr4p).

I have a brose

They all can fail, we're still pretty early days on the MTB technology/longevity side. We all hope our's won't .. maybe it will ... maybe it won't. Odds are, it won't actually fail no matter which brand it is.

Interesting. What’s the source of this info?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Interesting. What’s the source of this info?

A combination of reading 100,000 threads over the last year, personal experience of mine and friends bikes and feedback from multi-brand bike shops I know. As I say, they're just my correlated numbers, there's so much scope for error and inaccuracy that you may as well just pluck numbers from thin air. However, even if the percentages aren't correct, I'm pretty sure the ranking is most probably correct. Only the manufactures will have the actual numbers, and they're never going to ever release them, so we can throw numbers and opinions around all we like, it's all hypothetical.

I still think that real world, the odds are - yours won't break (assuming you don't do anything dumb like jet wash it or take it in the bath with you - then you're heading to 99% likely for a failure at some point in the near future).

Mine's going to break this afternoon now isn't it .... ?‍

 

[MrBrownstone]

A combination of reading 100,000 threads over the last year, personal experience of mine and friends bikes and feedback from multi-brand bike shops I know. As I say, they're just my correlated numbers, there's so much scope for error and inaccuracy that you may as well just pluck numbers from thin air. However, even if the percentages aren't correct, I'm pretty sure the ranking is most probably correct. Only the manufactures will have the actual numbers, and they're never going to ever release them, so we can throw numbers and opinions around all we like, it's all hypothetical.

I still think that real world, the odds are - yours won't break (assuming you don't do anything dumb like jet wash it or take it in the bath with you - then you're heading to 99% likely for a failure at some point in the near future).

Mine's going to break this afternoon now isn't it .... ?‍

haha!!!!! ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think it's probably something like (12 month window) :

Bosch/Mahle < 3% failure rate
Yamaha 4% failure rate
Shimano e8000 5% failure rate (higher for e7000)
Brose 7% failure rate

That's not from official numbers, just my correlation over time. (so probably complete bullcr4p).

I have a brose

They all can fail, we're still pretty early days on the MTB technology/longevity side. We all hope our's won't .. maybe it will ... maybe it won't. Odds are, it won't actually fail no matter which brand it is.

Ok, so as I clarified on my follow up from this (above), the numbers have so many possible errors in them that they can't be taken as accurate. My window for analysis is relatively small and has to be based on my rules to pick out reported (or not) motor failures, which makes a lot of assumptions, combined with data from external sources.

Interestingly, in the Rob interview with Marco Sonderegger, Specialized Senior Product Manager : Around 54 minutes in they're talking about motor failures.


Marco says that their global failure rate is about 5%, so I'm a couple of % high on my guess.

What that means for the others, I'm not sure. Maybe Bosch/Mahle are 2.5%, Yamaha 3%, Shimano 4% .. for instance - again a lot of assumptions are made so I might as well be plucking numbers from the air.

Eitherway, my view is motor failure is still relatively small and not something we should spend too much time worrying about when we can be enjoying them instead !

Edit.. thinking about it, he says 5% globally. So all e-bikes, where as my numbers are EMTB, so probably higher.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Hypothetical idea (it’ll never happen, I know it’s not that simple with various battery configurations) BUT - what implications will there be if ALL bike frames and ALL motors have the same standardised mounting bolt pattern? That could be a game changer won’t it?

I bet all motor manufacturers would get their act together real quick, won’t they?!

It’ll be a reality check when users get given the ability to change to another motor brand - if they’re fed up with the one that came with their preferred bike (failure or no failure).

It might also get embarrassing for a bike manufacturer to see the majority of their customers changing their motors in favour of something else based on proven user reviews and performance.

Or imagine ordering your class-1 EEB and being able to specify which motor you want installed.

Just hypothetical folks, so there’s no point picking which motor will end up with the people’s choice award... it probably doesn’t exist yet.

? ? ?

 

[Vas]

a) Gates Carbon Belt coupled with Internal Gearing
b) More cross country (XC) models to chose from (100-130 mm travel).

 

[Nifty 56]

If your that worried i wouldnt get any of them
there all substandard especially in the water ingress department .
You pays your money and takes your chance that goes for all motors
Or you could pay your money and just enjoy what ever bike/motor system you end up with as most of us do .

That's why I'm not buying another emtb. Although I do like the look of the SL.

 

[LeeBoy]

My BMC Amp 2 has 1000 miles and so far is tight and the motor is flawless....

 

[MrBrownstone]

My BMC Amp 2 has 1000 miles and so far is tight and the motor is flawless....

Wow another happy BMC owner!!!! Hallelujah!!! Best bikes evar!!!!?

 

[ZeLeo]

1: 9 Speed max, no one needs 12speed eagle road cassetts, we all tripple shift them anyways.

2: Internal gps tracking for theft.

3: gps location baised power profiles (general location auto set to more or less support)

4: 150% WATER PROOF MOTORS! and user serviceable

5: even more support profile tuning

6: 1/3 the range with 1/3 the weight optional batteries for those that ride eco 100% of the time

Thanks View attachment 17395

Fox 38
700w + 350w
170mm
Super brakes

 

[speedkills]

Fun thread, here is my two cents, I'll mix in some plausible and never gonna happen ideas. My experience is with a 2020 Levo Comp

Stronger belt. I have had no issues, but it seems to me they are overdriving the brose motor compared to what it was designed for and belt failures may be the result. They need to just overbuild that a bit and put that to rest so people can drop their thousands of dollars and not worry if they will make it through the summer.

Whatever electronic upgrades they need to get fast enough sampling that riders don't notice the motor pushing after they have stopped. This probably means they need to get it down to 50-100ms of overrun. I mean actual 50-100ms, not like the 200ms that Specialized quotes now when sometimes it keeps pushing for multiple seconds after I stop pedaling.

Wireless or internally routed (di2 style) remote. We all like clean cabling.

Quieter. Your average person you run into on the trail woudn't even know we are on electric bikes if they didn't hear us given how subtle some of the designs are these days, but you sure hear them. This is a very predictable frequency noise, I would think a sharp engineer could put a small speaker in the motor housing pumping out the correct sound to cancel out the noise fairly easily with a small low-power speaker, bose noise canceling headphone style.

Less drag. I tend to turn off my motor when I pass people, even though e-bikes are allowed in my area, I know many people are out there to enjoy peace and quiet so I like to give it to them, but pedaling sure is hard once the motor is shut off. I noticed on my bike stand today just turning the cranks with no chain on has a considerable amount of resistance/gummy feeling.

As mentioned before, let me buy a frame for a reasonable price. Few of us like the groupsets offered by manufacturers, why not let us just buy what we want? A Levo Comp is 6k USD, a S-Works frame by itself is 6k USD. Why not offer the Aluminum frame for 4k? I would have taken that in a heartbeat, as it is I bought the comp as the cheapest way to get an Aluminum fame and 700wh battery, and will proceed to replace nearly every component on the bike. I would have preferred a frame, but if it's the same price either way I might as well have some spare parts I guess.

Centrally mounted derailleur similar to what Honda did with their old DH bike. I have no interest in something like a Rohloff, I've had one before and I can't think of any areas they beat a centrally mounted casette/derailleur these days. Having to shut-off power to shift is just terrible for climbs, they are heavy, and draggy to pedal. Yeah, you can shift without pedaling, but I'm much more interested in being able to shift while pedaling. And with a motor and central mounting, if you really wanted the shift without pedaling someone could work up a way to spin the internal cassette when you shifted even if you didn't pedal.

That's all I have, overall I'm quite pleased with the current offerings so with exception of the centrally mounted cassette, it's all pretty minor tweaks to the current formula which I think is a pretty great place to be.

 

[Oldcrank]

Pinion married Yamaha. Maybe with a Gates drive.

 

[MrBrownstone]

Fun thread, here is my two cents, I'll mix in some plausible and never gonna happen ideas. My experience is with a 2020 Levo Comp

Stronger belt. I have had no issues, but it seems to me they are overdriving the brose motor compared to what it was designed for and belt failures may be the result. They need to just overbuild that a bit and put that to rest so people can drop their thousands of dollars and not worry if they will make it through the summer.

Whatever electronic upgrades they need to get fast enough sampling that riders don't notice the motor pushing after they have stopped. This probably means they need to get it down to 50-100ms of overrun. I mean actual 50-100ms, not like the 200ms that Specialized quotes now when sometimes it keeps pushing for multiple seconds after I stop pedaling.

Wireless or internally routed (di2 style) remote. We all like clean cabling.

Quieter. Your average person you run into on the trail woudn't even know we are on electric bikes if they didn't hear us given how subtle some of the designs are these days, but you sure hear them. This is a very predictable frequency noise, I would think a sharp engineer could put a small speaker in the motor housing pumping out the correct sound to cancel out the noise fairly easily with a small low-power speaker, bose noise canceling headphone style.

Less drag. I tend to turn off my motor when I pass people, even though e-bikes are allowed in my area, I know many people are out there to enjoy peace and quiet so I like to give it to them, but pedaling sure is hard once the motor is shut off. I noticed on my bike stand today just turning the cranks with no chain on has a considerable amount of resistance/gummy feeling.

As mentioned before, let me buy a frame for a reasonable price. Few of us like the groupsets offered by manufacturers, why not let us just buy what we want? A Levo Comp is 6k USD, a S-Works frame by itself is 6k USD. Why not offer the Aluminum frame for 4k? I would have taken that in a heartbeat, as it is I bought the comp as the cheapest way to get an Aluminum fame and 700wh battery, and will proceed to replace nearly every component on the bike. I would have preferred a frame, but if it's the same price either way I might as well have some spare parts I guess.

Centrally mounted derailleur similar to what Honda did with their old DH bike. I have no interest in something like a Rohloff, I've had one before and I can't think of any areas they beat a centrally mounted casette/derailleur these days. Having to shut-off power to shift is just terrible for climbs, they are heavy, and draggy to pedal. Yeah, you can shift without pedaling, but I'm much more interested in being able to shift while pedaling. And with a motor and central mounting, if you really wanted the shift without pedaling someone could work up a way to spin the internal cassette when you shifted even if you didn't pedal.

That's all I have, overall I'm quite pleased with the current offerings so with exception of the centrally mounted cassette, it's all pretty minor tweaks to the current formula which I think is a pretty great place to be.

Specialized should just use Shimano motors.

 

[speedkills]

I guess, but then I personally wouldn't have bought the specialized. I didn't buy it because it was specialized, I bought it because after test riding a few bikes I far preferred the feel/sound of the brose motor and am in a position where a little down time for a free repair isn't a huge issue for me. It's not that I didn't know of the strengths and weaknesses of the Brose, I did and that is why I chose it as those tradeoffs worked out well for me even if they would be absurd for others. Hopefully they are at least experimenting with other brands though so that when they feel another vendor can give them a better option they can change over, as they would with any other component.

 

[CBSTD]

Some kind of app, specific to your phone that switches on your bike, then you could switch off it was stolen and switch on an alarm

 

[MrSimmo]

Some kind of app, specific to your phone that switches on your bike, then you could switch off it was stolen and switch on an alarm

Love this one, got it on my Garmin but would be great to integrate into the bike.