2019 Fantic 180 race

[Tim29]

So got a chance to take the 2019 Fantic Integra 180 race for a spin and evaluation.
First let’s talk about what updates that Fantic didn’t put much on paper about over the 2018model.
I’ll start at front work my way through the bike. First update is the fork offset and steering stem. Gone is the 51 mm and replaced with 42mm, stem from 55 on large to 35.
Front wheel is now a Mavic and it is couple mm wider then the 2018 model but i didn’t dismount tire for true internal measurement.
The crank arms are 5mm shorter and greatly help reduce pedal strikes, seat got new brand but i don’t know how to spec seats.
Seat post dropper has little more travel. Rear mavic wheel is 2mm wider then last year with same tires front and rear.
Sounds like a very small list of changes, but the bike is noticeably better. Enough i had to get one and retire my 18.
Tight switch back the 42 off set is snappy, S turns its quicker, stability seems every bit as solid and the playful side has little more life.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. small changes all add up... but not always the way people think.

Tight switch back the 42 off set is snappy, S turns its quicker, stability seems every bit as solid

Not to piss on your parade Tim but I'd wager if you hadn't read/heard about the fork offset difference and difference in stem length you probably wouldn't have percieved faster steering at all or even had thoughts about any loss of stability during your evaluation spin.
Why? Because shorter offset in the fork actually makes a bike SLOWER turning and MOAR stable. The shorter stem of course quickens the steering slightly at the hands but the two don't cancel each other out as ultimately the steering characteristics are dictated by head angle and trail. We're all guilty of making perceptions based on misunderstandings. Sometimes it's good to just ride a bike with no preconceptions. It does become kinda difficult to overlook the marketing when you're looking at spending the best part of £6k on a push bike though.

 

[Tim29]

Gla

Yeah. small changes all add up... but not always the way people think.


Not to piss on your parade Tim but I'd wager if you hadn't read/heard about the fork offset difference and difference in stem length you probably wouldn't have percieved faster steering at all or even had thoughts about any loss of stability during your evaluation spin.
Why? Because shorter offset in the fork actually makes a bike SLOWER turning and MOAR stable. The shorter stem of course quickens the steering slightly at the hands but the two don't cancel each other out as ultimately the steering characteristics are dictated by head angle and trail. We're all guilty of making perceptions based on misunderstandings. Sometimes it's good to just ride a bike with no preconceptions. It does become kinda difficult to overlook the marketing when you're looking at spending the best part of £6k on a push bike though.

Glad you mentioned that Gary. As there is nothing in print that specs the changes. I actually rode the bike then wanted to know why it felt so different so i went on a mission to find it.
I was the first out of all the Fantic crew to notice the changes. Fantic USA didn’t have any literature at all that gave the updated specs.
So the handling differences is what i felt riding it without knowing there was any difference other then the rims and color. But i had put the 35mm stem on my 2018 180 so i noticed that right away.
I have the sag set the same as my 2018, so technically speaking the only difference between my 18 and the production 19 is the cranks and fork offset.
The bike turns quicker in a turns and tight 180 switch back. The bike just pivots faster.
I don’t understand your logic how more offset can make the bike quicker turning when it lengthens the wheelbase and increases pivot line.
All our motocross bikes less offsets makes them twitchy at speed and corner in ruts like there on rails.
But always get nervous at speed with less offset. My Jekyll got considerably more stable with a 43 offset vs the stock 21 offset.
But have a look Gary, you can’t read about the changes to 2019 as the brochure for 2019 doesn’t give any of these updates

 

[Gary]

Because of trail Tim. A higher trail measurement means greater stability and lazier, slower steering. Shorter offset or a slacker head angle results in more trail.

 

[Gary]

TBH. I switch from steep 20" BMX or 26" mtbs or 700c road bikes to slack 26" and 27.5 bikes (all with different off-sets) daily. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago. I do know what I like in each application tho and why.

 

[Tim29]

The diagram of fork offset doesn’t support your theory.
Fork offset has same affect as steering access inclination or caster in a car.
More offset the more self centering steering point is.
More stable it becomes at speed and slower more effort to turn.
If you want to test your theory. Flatten your rear shock and let the bars flop all the way right or left lean forward into front wheel and feel the effort to turn back centered.
Then max your rear shock in air pressure and do the same test.
It will take 1/3 the effort to return straight.
Less offset has a quicker and less effort steering pivot line as the wheel base won’t grow and shrink as much through out the turning motion.
This is why trials bikes all have really minimal fork offset so you can turn bars lock to lock quickly and effortlessly to maintain balance at low speed or stationary.
You want to test my theory.
Try this test. On tarmac take a bike with same head angle and different offset forks. Get going about 20k stand up and take both hands off the bars and use your weight to lean and turn the bike. Try to turn it right then left small amount quickly.
The bike with the 51 offset fork will feel 20-30 lbs heavier and more stable, the bike with the 42 offset will turn to quick and your instinct will be sit grab the bars.

 

[All Mountain Coaching]

So it's similar to a shorter stem feeling?

 

[Gary]

Not really. Tim is describing the different effects of wheel flop from steering either a shorter or longer offset fork.

 

[Tim29]

Shorter

So it's similar to a shorter stem feeling?

Shorter stem reduces steering arch. Your just moving the bars in a smaller radius so you get more wheel movement in same bar movement.
Gary think of the basic physics.
How can a shorter bike turn slower? The longer the wheel base the larger the turn radius. But some have the false elision that because the fork has longer offset when you turn the front end the tire pulls into the circle faster as it’s offset of pivot line. The problem with that theory is flawed.
As on all two wheel cycles you actually turn right first to turn left to get lean angle you lean into turn and slight counter steer to get lean angle then turn into your turning circle
No physics allow something that needs to travel further to accomplish the Same turn angle speeds up the process. Simple physics says more distance requires more time.

But the whole reason i found the fork offset different is because the bike was so much quicker and agile i needed to find out why. Only difference is 9mm less offset in fork.
Keep in mind i rode the bike like you suggested. As i thought the only difference was color and updated mavic wheels.
But my 18 model has 29x38 and 27.5x40 wheels.
Much wider then what came on 2019.
So for quick comparison i put the stock wheels back on my 2018 and i hated it.
It’s enough of a difference that i would spend the 400 bucks for new uppers if i didn’t get the 2019 bike.
In stead i put my 2018 on the chopping block for sale

 

[Tim29]

I can’t wait to ride it with my wife wheels off my 18

 

[Eckythump]

Gary’s diagram doesn’t make it clear what he is saying.
The shorter offset moves the fork further back under the bike. As the head tube is angled moving the fork stanchions back lifts the head tube reducing the effective head angle making the bike ‘slacker’.
The reduction in head angle pretty much negates the expected changes from shortening wheelbase and reducing offset.
If you tried the same on a bike with a steep head angle you would get the more traditional results.

 

[R120]

I fitted a higher offset fork to my E-Sommett, which reduced the trail. The E-Sommett is already a "slack" bike, and in terms of what this has done to the feel of the bike is it has made it feel quicker steering without affecting the stability you get from the slacker geometry. I kept the same 35mm stem.

 

[Gary]

Tim. You're making up "theories" I haven't theorised here. I've only posted FACTS not theories. I've not gone into anything in huge detail on purpose as the subject is HUGE and as you've clearly understood multi facetted. for example. (As you've already touched on). What seems ideal turning characteristics at high speed is not the same as what will seem ideal at low speed. As with all bike geometry it's all a compromise. The rider being abl to adapt from one trait to another quickly is IMO far more important.

It's no secret I prefer riding shorter wheelbase bikes than most (and I know exactly why). 9mm makes very little difference to the overall length of a 1200mm wheelbase bike but exactly where and how that 9mm difference is implememted does.

 

[Gary]

Ps. it actually does my head in when folk bring motorcycle or car physics into pushbike geometry discussion. There are similarities for sure but heavy motorised vehicles are not controlled/ridden in the same way as light weight pedal powered bicycles can be and for me bringing anything into the discussion from that angle just needlessly confuses the subject.

eg. Try to drift an mtb through a long mellow uphill corner or cutty a MX bike (in neutral) left then right and see how far you get on each.