Shimano EP8 Spindle Failures and People getting injured. Where to now?

[Bigtuna00]

I contacted Orbea about my wife's H30, which comes with e*thirteen aluminum cranks. This is what they had to say:

Thanks for writing. I've consulted with the head of our warranty department regarding your query. In regards to the issue explained in the Bike Radar article, Orbea has collaborated with both providers (Shimano and e*thirteen), testing and sharing the subsequent conclusions. It was determined that the EP8 RS spindle damage is produced because the par of the e*thirteen crank is greater than the par for the area surrounding the crank. This is why a new crank mounting method was developed to avoiding any over tightening by the user or the mechanic that could cause undesired spindle breakage. From Orbea we urge you to follow the correct torque tightening instructions and keep the correct position in regards to the motor and the crank the way that it was sent from our factory. This method has been demonstrated to be effective as, in addition to our lab tests, we have not received any incidences of breakages since our assembly line has applied these changes.

In case you have modified the crank position to something different than the way it came from factory, we would recommend having your local Orbea dealer do a revision to ensure it gets back to the correct position.

I really can't believe Orbea hasn't made public documentation for this. This is a safety issue, not a situation for messing around.

My dealer is over an hour away, I'm not going to drive there to have the shop torque the bolts. I highly suspect the shop would have no idea what I'm talking about anyway. When I picked up the bike they didn't provide me with any of the accessories (should have included the Shimano cable tool and the preload tool for the rocker link, minimally).

I ended up ordering Shimano FC-EM900 cranks myself for my wife's bike (from Italy no less since no one has them in stock). If someday Orbea decides to replace them it would probably be a lower end version anyway.

 

[Mikerb]

I contacted Orbea about my wife's H30, which comes with e*thirteen aluminum cranks. This is what they had to say:



I really can't believe Orbea hasn't made public documentation for this. This is a safety issue, not a situation for messing around.

My dealer is over an hour away, I'm not going to drive there to have the shop torque the bolts. I highly suspect the shop would have no idea what I'm talking about anyway. When I picked up the bike they didn't provide me with any of the accessories (should have included the Shimano cable tool and the preload tool for the rocker link, minimally).

I ended up ordering Shimano FC-EM900 cranks myself for my wife's bike (from Italy no less since no one has them in stock). If someday Orbea decides to replace them it would probably be a lower end version anyway.

It was determined that the EP8 RS spindle damage is produced because the par of the e*thirteen crank is greater than the par for the area surrounding the crank.

Anyone know what the heck that means???!!

 

[Bigtuna00]

It was determined that the EP8 RS spindle damage is produced because the par of the e*thirteen crank is greater than the par for the area surrounding the crank.

Anyone know what the heck that means???!!

I almost wonder if it was a typo...

EDIT: Google says it might mean "peak-to-average ratio"... (not that this helps)

 

[Mikerb]

I almost wonder if it was a typo...

EDIT: Google says it might mean "peak-to-average ratio"... (not that this helps)

I can only think it refers to the outer diameter of the e 13 crank being overly large such that the back face of it hits the area surrounding the motor splined spigot if the toque nut is over tightened. With reference to the positioning of the E13 crank that can only be the relationship between the spline spigot hole and the open part of the e 13 crank that fits onto those splines. Possibly that open part ( which gets compressed by the 2 securing bolts) needs to be 180 degrees from the hole to avoid any compression of the splined spigot at that point when the 2 bolts are tightened. If any of that is right it still suggests to me that the e13 crank is not an ideal component for EP8.....but also that hole in the splined spigot should not be there.

 

[Bigtuna00]

I can only think it refers to the outer diameter of the e 13 crank being overly large such that the back face of it hits the area surrounding the motor splined spigot if the toque nut is over tightened. With reference to the positioning of the E13 crank that can only be the relationship between the spline spigot hole and the open part of the e 13 crank that fits onto those splines. Possibly that open part ( which gets compressed by the 2 securing bolts) needs to be 180 degrees from the hole to avoid any compression of the splined spigot at that point when the 2 bolts are tightened. If any of that is right it still suggests to me that the e13 crank is not an ideal component for EP8.....but also that hole in the splined spigot should not be there.

You made me realize something else. The portion of the spindle where the splines end, on the inside, is slightly tapered. If you were to over tighten the preload cap, that would cause the crank to expand and potentially move up onto this unsplined area. This is likely why Shimano uses a plastic preload cap, with a tool that doesn't afford much torque (the tool in question: https://www.jensonusa.com/globalass...assets/shimano/tl403b01.jpg?w=1000&quality=85). This would certainly lead to the cranks loosening over time.

As to the positioning of the crank, it would be really nice if all parties involved would JUST F**KING DOCUMENT IT

 

[RustyIron]

It was determined that the EP8 RS spindle damage is produced because the par of the e*thirteen crank is greater than the par for the area surrounding the crank.

Anyone know what the heck that means???!!

Yeah, it means that you can't trust the customer service people because they're so stupid that they don't even know that they sound stupid.

 

[Spiff]

It was determined that the EP8 RS spindle damage is produced because the par of the e*thirteen crank is greater than the par for the area surrounding the crank.

Anyone know what the heck that means???!!

PAR is the spanish word for TORQUE, looks like Orbea got lost in translation.

Does it make sense now?

 

[Bigtuna00]

PAR is the spanish word for TORQUE, looks like they got lost in translation.

Does it make sense now?

Wait, so e*thirteen issues a TSB saying you need to increase the torque when installing the cranks (technically they just eliminated the low end of the range, but still), and Orbea says the torque is too high?

 

[Bigtuna00]

I asked Orbea about official docs, they don't have it yet but here's what they sent:

The bikes have been shipping with the proper crank installation and torque specs since last May so there should be no issues with your bike. In case you want to check or in the future perform any maintenance on the cranks (cleaning, greasing, etc) please use this photo for reference for the proper installation:

 

[Mikerb]

I asked Orbea about official docs, they don't have it yet but here's what they sent:

So I was right about one thing.........the position of the clamping section of the crank 180 from the hole in the splined spigot. Based on the fact ( above) that PAR is Spanish for torque I would now interpret the explanation for the splined spindle cracking to be that the application of ( probably whatever) clamping torque directly a bove or close to that hole can crack the splined spindle. It still suggests to me that the hole is the true root cause of the problem!!

 

[Mikerb]

You made me realize something else. The portion of the spindle where the splines end, on the inside, is slightly tapered. If you were to over tighten the preload cap, that would cause the crank to expand and potentially move up onto this unsplined area. This is likely why Shimano uses a plastic preload cap, with a tool that doesn't afford much torque (the tool in question: https://www.jensonusa.com/globalass...assets/shimano/tl403b01.jpg?w=1000&quality=85). This would certainly lead to the cranks loosening over time.

As to the positioning of the crank, it would be really nice if all parties involved would JUST F**KING DOCUMENT IT

it is standard to build a "ramp" into the inboard end of the splined spigot rather than a vertical ledge, and it is that which enables the end cap torque to be effective.

 

[RustyIron]

There is a splined shaft which is expected to withstand grown men pushing as hard as they can with their legs, smashing into trees with bone-jarring force, and cartwheeling through the air to come crashing down on the rocks. And they want us to believe that the shaft cracks because of a discrepancy of few newton-meters of clamping force? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Bigtuna00]

Interesting little tidbit included with the FC-EM900 cranks I just installed:

Kinda strange it's specific to the non-drive side...

 

[R120]

It because the LHS will naturally unwind itself if loose - same reason pedals are reverse threaded

 

[TooTallPaul]

Thanks for creating this thread, I hadn't heard of this issue. My Marin Alpine E2 is being delivered in two weeks. I contacted Marin and they are switching out the E13 cranks for Shimano before I get the bike. Only took one e-mail. Great customer service. I am in the USA. Thanks again!

 

[Flemming]

I had my spindle break in the drive side in december. It did cause a crash but luckily I only got minor bruises and cuts. It was during the take off on a small jump we I was preloading the bike.

The bike came with the E13 cranks.

I have had the left pedalarm fall of 2 times, but I have never had any problems with right/drive side.

Commencal provided me with a new motor and a set of shimano cranks.

My uneducated guess would be that the problem is the spindle.

b

 

[Sapientiea]

I can imagine that this might happen with such new technology. Spindles are very new.....

 

[Rochefort]

This is the official shimano crank that I had replaced under warranty. Luckily no cracking on the spindle that i can see, but doesnt look like the Shimano cranks are immune from coming loose and wearing out... Which reminds me, the actual warranty crank is still at the bike shop (i bought a replacement since I just want to riiiiiiiiiiiide) That Crank arm lasted about 500km.

 

[urastus]

I think you need to address this issue in all seriousness and do some investigating.

Why? He isn't responsible for the problem.

 

[Husky430]

I bought a set of Shimano 160mm cranks and installed them on my e8000 motor. I've had the original 170mm cranks on and off a number of time with no dramas but after CORRECTLY TORQUING the 160 cranks up and going for a couple of rides the right hand side came off. Needless to say I was pretty surprised and my guess was I had forgot to torque that side up properly. So did it all again after cleaning up the splines as they looked a bit like the picture above, I used my wifes diamond nail file that worked really well. And it did it again making me think that I had correctly installed and torqued it the first time. This time I suspected the tiny plastic wedge that goes into the pinch split on the crank so I removed that and pretty much swung off the wrench this time and tightened it as much as I dare.
Problem solved and have had no more trouble with it. Why it happened at all in the first place I don't know.

 

[Hitorogoshi]

Why? He isn't responsible for the problem.

Are you his mom or dad?
Or just plain thick?

 

[urastus]

Are you his mom or dad?
Or just plain thick?

I must be thick. Perhaps you could explain why Rob needs to address this?

 

[urastus]

Another potential angle to this issue: Aaron Gwin Comments on Injured Ankle, Broken Cranks, & More - Pinkbike

 

[Hitorogoshi]

I must be thick. Perhaps you could explain why Rob needs to address this?

If it needs explaining to you it's not really worth explaining to you.

 

[Hitorogoshi]

Another potential angle to this issue: Aaron Gwin Comments on Injured Ankle, Broken Cranks, & More - Pinkbike

the angle there was he didn't want to bad mouth people that put money in his pocket. Same could be said for the youtubers (who are very afraid to piss people like Shimano off). I'm quite sure Rob and the rest of the gift of the giver youtubers are very well aware of the EP8 garbage consumers are over paying for. Will they piss brands off by telling the truth about the poor quality products that get given to them for free, highly doubt it. I have faith in people like EMTB VIDEOS and smaller guys. Petition is out there being signed by many as we speak about this.

But as always, us little folk fight the big one. The big ones just brush us under the carpet when the proverbial dust settles and a new shiny bike gets planted in their sheds.

edit: Specialized got grilled major for their shitty motor failures. It's time Shimano gets the same treatment.

 

[urastus]

the angle there was he didn't want to bad mouth people that put money in his pocket. Same could be said for the youtubers (who are very afraid to piss people like Shimano off). I'm quite sure Rob and the rest of the gift of the giver youtubers are very well aware of the EP8 garbage consumers are over paying for. Will they piss brands off by telling the truth about the poor quality products that get given to them for free, highly doubt it. I have faith in people like EMTB VIDEOS and smaller guys. Petition is out there being signed by many as we speak about this.

But as always, us little folk fight the big one. The big ones just brush us under the carpet when the proverbial dust settles and a new shiny bike gets planted in their sheds.

edit: Specialized got grilled major for their shitty motor failures. It's time Shimano gets the same treatment.

They were e13 cranks; no shimano motors involved

Aaron Gwin Comments on Injured Ankle, Broken Cranks, & More - Pinkbike

We do a quick check in with Aaron Gwin and his longtime mechanic John Hall to get an update on Aaron’s ankle injury along with a little insight into product testing and what went wrong at Mountain Creek this past weekend.

www.pinkbike.com

 

[urastus]

Thanks for creating this thread, I hadn't heard of this issue. My Marin Alpine E2 is being delivered in two weeks. I contacted Marin and they are switching out the E13 cranks for Shimano before I get the bike. Only took one e-mail. Great customer service. I am in the USA. Thanks again!

I'm interested in the same bike. I contacted bicyclesonline.com.au - they're the only importer / seller for marin bikes here. Here's their answer:

"Bicycles Online would like you as our customer to be confident in riding a bike from us, at the moment there is a real challenge to source parts but we are working with our suppliers to source replacement Shimano EP8 cranksets.

For now, Bicycles Online is able to provide options to get the cranks replaced if needed."

No mention of motor replacement though, of course, which is the real concern; so a hollow gesture at best. It also suggests that they are well aware of the problem. Maybe shimano cranks have been hard to source for the last two years? I know I've had to wait months for a backup derailer, replacement caliper and XTR M9100 chains. Parts still seem to be in short supply. Maybe this is why e thirteen cranks are being used?

I am also thankful for this thread; I was close to ordering that Marin.

 

[urastus]

It really is looking like a parts availability scenario. Just checking out another ep8 mtb I was interested in, the polygon Mt Bromo N8; it also has e13 cranks . The various manufacturers must know this so it really looks like it is up to the bike manufacturers to honour any ep8 shaft breakage when using non shimano cranks. For example, it looks like orbea swapped out e13 with shimano on their ep8 bikes before October 2021.

 

[Rochefort]

"Bicycles Online would like you as our customer to be confident in riding a bike from us, at the moment there is a real challenge to source parts but we are working with our suppliers to source replacement Shimano EP8 cranksets.

99 bikes had no issue getting 2 crank arms from shimano.. 1 being the impatient one i wanted while the warranty was taking place, and the replacement crank arm which is sitting on my desk as a spare.

The thing is, why should it be Bicycles online expense? It's Marin's "fault" for using the E13 crankset, it should be Marin replacing it with the approved cranks from Shimano. Mind you... they're 60 bucks an arm or something, pretty cheap. NFI what the profit margin on bikes are.

 

[urastus]

why should it be Bicycles online expense? It's Marin's "fault" for using the E13 crankset, it should be Marin replacing it with the approved cranks from Shimano.

You're agreeing with me

Seeing the trouble that some folk are having getting those repairs or motor replacements done, I wouldn't take the chance on buying a new bike with the e13/ep8 combo.