Motor failures?
- Thread starter b33k34
- Start date
theremotejuggernaut
Active member
Pretty sure I had a similar fault come up at about 400 miles. Can't remember the code now. It was a wet day. Axle deep puddles kind of wet and it gave up after about 6 hours.
A few days in the garage to dry out and it was fine. Haven't had any other issues and I'm on about 1000 miles now.
Did you get a specific error code? Could be something simple like the magnet on the brake disc or the speed sensor? Are you still in warranty?
A few days in the garage to dry out and it was fine. Haven't had any other issues and I'm on about 1000 miles now.
Did you get a specific error code? Could be something simple like the magnet on the brake disc or the speed sensor? Are you still in warranty?
- Thread starter
- #3
That's interesting - it was the last day of five riding in very wet conditions. it was still instantly erroring 3 days later but is at least switching on without an error this morning. Maybe it is/was a water/damp issue. When I'd last dropped the motor was was surprised at the cable connections being upward facing - they do look like water could sit on them.
5 days in the warm and dry and still giving the errors immediately on startup.
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Rod B.
Well-known member
I had a similar issue with my Rise, i.e. dead motor, error code, etc. My issues began after a bike trip that involved a lot of water crossings and mud. Post trip, I washed my bike and the next day it wouldn't work.
I traced the problem back to the wiring harness pin connections at the battery and motor. It's important to know that the wiring harness connections at the battery and motor are not true water tight connections. My thought is that with enough hours of operation, trail miles, and repeated exposure to moisture, i.e. frequent bike washings, stream crossings, etc., the pin connectors develop a trace bit of corrosion and loose connection at the plugs. A lost connection will result in a dead bike.
To prevent the issue from repeating itself the electrical contacts at the motor and battery must be cleaned. I never had an issue with the charging port connection. To access the connections, the motor must be dropped and the wiring harness electrical connections at the motor and battery removed.
To clean the connections, I used a artist's fine tip paint brush to buff and clean the pin connectors and the female portions of the electrical receptacles. I also used a spray electrical contact cleaner such as "CRC QD Electronic Cleaner" to clean the contacts. Make sure the contact cleaner you use is plastic safe.
As a side note, I contacted Shimano and asked if it was permissible to use a dialectic grease on the EP8 wiring harness connections. My thought was the grease would assist in water proofing the connections and prevent corrosion. Shimano advised me not to use any dialectic grease or any other water proofing agent on the plugs as it could damage the connections, i.e. rubber, plastics, etc.
When you drop the motor, pay careful attention to the wiring hardness loom. The design of the Rise's bottom bracket which the motor mounts to, creates a very confined and tight space. This confined space tends to pinch the cable housings and wiring hardness so that everything rubs against each other. This rubbing can rub through the wiring harness loom and with enough time, will cause a break in a wire. Below is a picture of the wiring harness on my Rise at 2,800 miles.
Note: The EP8’s wiring system is an enclosed loop system. If there’s a break, i.e. lack of connection or severed wi anywhere in the the wiring system, the bike will not work. As an example, if the wired connection to the power control button disconnects, the bike will fault code and not work. If the rear wheel speed sensor wire disconnects from the motor, the system will fault code and not work. If the range extender cable is not fully plugged into the range extender and charge port and either connection comes loose while riding, the bike will stop working. The same enclosed wiring loop principle also applies to the wires which plug into the Shimano computer display mounted on the handlebar or on the EN100 junction box. If a wire anywhere on the system comes loose or is pulled out, the bike will not work.
My Rise now has about 6,700 very hard kilometers on it. I've never had an issue with the battery or motor. I have had issues with the electrical. If your Rise stops working, 99% of the time it will be a loose wire connection. When this occurs, I’ve found the cause to be one of the following, starting with the most common cause:
1) Mode or motor control wire unplugged/loose at the display or junction box. Unplug and re-connect the connections at the junction box or computer display if your Rise stops working.
2) The EP8 motor is controlled via a SD300 motor control wire which travels from the motor, up the downtube and connects into one side of a EW-AD305 adapter located at the junction of the downtube and headtube. A SD50 wire travels from the mode switch to either a EN100 junction box or to the computer display. From there, the SD50 wire enters the head tube and plugs into the other side of the EW-AD305 adapter. If the SD50 wire is pulled on with enough force, i.e. you snag it on a branch, you drop the fork to service the headset, etc., the SD50 wire will disconnect from the EW-AD305 adapter and your bike will not work. The EW-AD305 adapter is wrapped in a foam pad and tucked into the down tube where it meets the at the head tube. To reconnect the wire to the adapter, you must drop the fork to check connection.
3) The main wiring harness plug is not an air tight sealed unit. It plugs into the internal frame battery. If water enters, and or, moisture builds up in the plug connection port at the battery, power will be lost. Note this will typically occur after a ride and you wash your bike off. The next day you go to ride and the bike won’t power up. To fix, drop motor and disconnect from bike. Turn bike upside down for easier access to the battery connection port. Remove harness plug at battery. Clean out battery wiring harness plug and battery connection port with electrical connection cleaner. Note, I was told specifically that Shimano does not recommend the use of dielectric electrical connection grease on wiring connections.
4) When using a battery range extender. If bike will not power up, or stops mid ride, the reason will be a loose cable connection at the range extender battery or frame charging port. Remove the range extender cable. Ensure connection ports to the battery and charging port are free of debris by blowing out with your breath and or wiping down the cable/ports. Re-insert the cable into the ports insuring that the cable leads are fully clipped into the ports.
Nobody likes a dead bike....jus sayin....
Be safe,
Rod
- Thread starter
- #5
Thanks Rod. I’ve got power - the bike turns on. And I can often change the mode (which makes me think the circuit is complete?) I’m never losing power - I get flashing red lights.
Will a momentary loss of connection give red lights? I’m thinking this might be the problem- it was a very wet 5 days of riding. And it’s going to be something down around the motor.
Was working for some minutes sitting in the workshop. Then flashing lights again.
Will a momentary loss of connection give red lights? I’m thinking this might be the problem- it was a very wet 5 days of riding. And it’s going to be something down around the motor.
Was working for some minutes sitting in the workshop. Then flashing lights again.
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Rod B.
Well-known member
b33k34,
A blinking red light means there is a system error. This could mean absolutely anything, but in truth usually means either a fully disconnected wire, a loose wire connection or bad connection caused by moisture or corrosion at a pin connector. Wet conditions or a loose connection will absolutely brick your bike and cause the symptoms you describe.If I had to guess, I think you have either a loose connection on one of the wires which plug into the EN100 junction box, or a loose connection at the EW-AD305 adapter (Located inside the down tube at the junction with the head tube). It doesn't take much force to "Slightly" unplug a wire at the black junction box or at the adapter. When this happens, the "Sort of" wire connection works and then with a little bit of vibration doesn't work. You need to unplug the wire and then re-plug the wire back into it's connection.
It pays to keep things simple and start with the easy stuff first. Install the Shimano E-tube App on your phone and pair it to your Rise. What error code is your bike throwing? Most likely it'll be a communication error between the battery and drive unit, in other words, a bad wire connection.
Let me know what you are getting and we can take it from there.
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Rod B.
Well-known member
b33k34,
Here are your error codes. It's important to understand, that with the DU-EP800 system, a single malfunctioning wire/component can have a cascade affect down range and generate multiple error codes. Do you remember those old style Christmas tree lights? The ones where if a single bulb goes out, the whole strand goes to shit? The Shimano DU-EP800 wiring system is very much similar.
The first error code "E20" provides a clue. It's the dreaded........loose, corroded, wet, unplugged, damaged....pick your poison.....wire connection somewhere on your bike, which I spoke about. Somewhere in your bike's wiring system you have a bad connection. It was most likely caused by you having too much fun over a "Very wet 5 days of riding."
Your goal now is to find the bad/wet connection. This means starting at the front of the bike and working your way backwards to the more difficult to access connections, i.e. dropping the motor to gain access to the main motor, battery and speed sensor plugs.
You want to start with the easiest to check connections first, i.e. the EN100 black junction box wires, or if your Rise came with a computer display, check the wires plugged into the display. If that doesn't fix the problem, then you will need to advance to the next more involved check.
To check each connection, I would unplug the wire, give the male and female portions of the contact a little spritz of electrical contact cleaner and re-insert the wire. Once done, power up the bike and see if the problem has been cured. If not, advance to the next phase of checking. When removing and re-inserting each wire connection, be sure to use Shimano's TL-EW02 wire tool so you don't inadvertently damage a wire. If you bought your bike new, it should be in the owner's package.
Note: I'm attaching Shimano's dealer manual which explains how to use the TL-EW02 tool and also how to remove each type of wired connection found on Shimano's DU-EP800 system.
Tool used as a pry lever to safely remove a wire from it's connection port without damaging the wire.
The tool used to insert wires into a port without damaging the wire.
Here is the sequence I would suggest in regards to trouble shooting a bad wire connection:
1. Check the wire connections at the EN100 black junction box or Shimano computer display (Whichever your Rise has) .
2. Check the wire connections at the EW-AD305 adapter. The adapter is located inside a foam pad and tucked into the downtube where it meets the head tube. You will need to remove your fork from the head tube to access the adapter and it's wired connections.
3. Check the wire connection at the power button located on the seat tube. The power button is held in place by a friction ring. It can be easily popped out of it's receptacle ring using a small pick. Gently pull the power button out until you expose the white plastic two piece wire connector. Separate the connector and make sure both the male and female sections of the connector are clean and dry. Reconnect the wire connection.
Post Edit: If the Rise is an H model with aluminum frame, the power button has a retention nut located inside the frame. The power button cannot be removed without first dropping the motor. Only then can you access the nut so that the power button can be removed. Thank you "The Remote Juggernaut" for the clarification.
4. Check the "Speed Sensor" wire connection, "Motor Control" wire connection, "Motor Power" wire connection and "Battery" connection. To do these checks requires dropping the motor.
I've made several posts on how to remove the motor on a Rise M Carbon. It's a reasonably simple process, but does require a special tool. Here's a link to one of my postings:
Orbea Rise - Charging/Cabling Fault Finding
Post Article Update: I’ve added some additional information for those encountering electrical issues with their Rise. The EP8’s wiring system is an enclosed loop system. If there’s a break, i.e. lack of connection or severed wire anywhere in the the wiring system, the bike will not work. As an...
www.emtbforums.com
On Rise M carbon models, you will need to remove the chain ring in order to remove one of the six motor mounting bolts. The chainring prevents one of the bolts from being fully removed from the frame. I've heard of people forcibly wedging the bolt past the chain ring, however this method will result in scratching the black anodizing on the chain ring and the motor mounting bolt. Instead, buy a chainring lock ring tool and remove the bolt without damaging it. Park Tool makes the LRT-2 tool. There are other companies which also make lock ring tools.
I've have not dropped a motor on an aluminum H model Rise yet. I have heard it's possible to remove the six motor mounting bolts without having to remove the chain ring.
When dropping the motor, place your bike in a bike stand. Place a small stool below the motor and place a thick towel on the stool. The thick towel helps stabilize the motor so it won't roll off of the stool when the motor has been lowered from the frame. Once the stool has been placed below the motor, lower the bike stand so that the Rise's motor is a few inches above the stool. Remove the six motor mount bolts and gently lower the motor down onto the thick towel. Once the motor has been lowered a few inches or so, you can access the wires for disconnection and removal of the motor away from the frame.
Note: If you do not have a bike stand, you can turn your bike over and remove the motor with the bike upside down. It's a little bit more cumbersome, but it can be done.
Motor Control and Speed Sensor wire connections:
Once the motor has been lowered, you will see two wire connections attaching to the non-drive side of the EP8 motor. The two wires are the A) Speed Sensor wire and the B) Motor Control" wire.
A) A speed sensor pickup is mounted on the inside edge of the non drive, left chain stay. The speed sensor pickup has a small wire which travels up the inside of the chain stay and enters the motor mounting shell. The speed sensor wire connects directly to the non drive, left side of the EP8 motor. The speed sensor determines bike speed based on a magnetic pulse provided by a magnet mounted on the rear brake rotor. As the magnet passes the speed sensor, it sends a pulse to the motor. The quicker the frequency of pulses, the faster the bicycle's speed is. When maximum speed has been reached, the EP8's motor controller shuts off motor assist. If the speed sensor connection to the motor is lost, i.e. screwing with the magnet, or a corroded connection at the motor, the bike will issue a fault code and brick.
The speed sensor wire connection lead and it's connection port is uniquely different than the motor control wire connection lead and it's port. The speed sensor connection lead has two small tabs on the lead. The connection port has two small slots that correspond to the tabs on speed sensor connection lead. This prevents inadvertently plugging the speed sensor wire into the wrong port. You can't mess this one up boys....
B) The SD300 motor control wire travels from it's connection port at the motor and out to the front of the bike where it will either plug into an EW-AD305 adapter or a computer display. The motor control wire transmits the signal from the mode selector switch to the motor.
VERY IMPORTANT: Your Rise may or may not have an EW-AD305 adapter. It all depends upon how your Rise was equipped at the factory.
Rise models that come from the factory with a Shimano EM800 colorized computer display do not use an EW-AD305 adapter. The SC-EM800 computer display will only accept SD300 wire connection leads. Therefore on Rise models which came from the factory with a computer display, the SD300 Motor Control wire travels up the down tube, through the head tube, and plugs directly into the back of the computer display. No adapter is used and will not be present on your Rise.
Because the SC-EM800 color display only accepts SD300 connection leads, Orbea uses a SW-EM800 mode selector switch which is hard wired with SD300 wire. The SD300 wire from the mode selector switch plugs into a port on the computer display. The SD300 motor control wire plugs into the other port on the display. When you operate the mode selector switch it sends a signal via the SD300 wire to the display. The display forwards the signal to the SD300 motor control wire which is connected to the motor and tells the motor to "Boost" the shit out of it. If a wire becomes unplugged from the display, or the motor control wire looses connection to the motor, an error code will be issued and the motor will brick.
All Rise models that came from the factory with a EN100 junction box, will utilize an EW-AD305 adapter tucked into the down tube at the head tube.
The EN100 junction box only accepts SD50 connection leads. Therefore Orbea has to convert the SD300 motor control wire to SD50 wire. This is done by utilizing a EW-AD305 adapter. The SD300 motor control wire plugs into one side of the adapter. A separate SD50 wire is plugged into the other side of the adapter. The SD50 wire exits the head tube and plugs directly into one side of the EN100 junction box. A SW-E7000 mode selector switch is used with EN100 junction box Rise models. The SW-E7000 mode selector switch is hard wired with SD50 wire.
Therefore on Rise models with a EN100 junction box, the SD300 motor control wire travels up the downtube and plugs directly into one side of the EW-AD305 adapter. A second separate SD50 wire plugs directly into the other side of the adapter. The SD50 wire then travels out the head tube port and plugs directly into one side of the EN100 junction box. The SW-E7000 mode selector switch plugs into the other side of the junction box. When you select a mode, the signal travels from the mode selector switch to one side of the junction box. The junction box lets you know what mode you are in, if the battery is low, or if your Rise has fault coded via a series of colored lights. From the junction box, the SD50 wire enters the head tube and plugs into one side of the EW-AD305 adapter. From the other side of the adapter, the SD300 motor control wire travels down the down tube and plugs into the motor control port on the side of the EP8 motor.
If connection to either side of the junction box, the adapter, or at the motor is lost, a fault code will issue and your bike will brick.
Motor Power and Main Battery Connections:
Once the motor has been dropped, you will see two additional wired connections. These are the Motor Power Connector and the Main Battery connector. Note that these two connections are additional to the Motor Control and Speed Sensor wire connections. There are a total of three wire connections to the motor and one to the main battery.
The Motor Power Connection port is located at the front of the motor on the non-drive side.
The Motor Power wire connection has a similar design to that of a quick coupler used on an air hose to connect a power tool. The motor control wire has an outer sleeve which you must pull up on. This will release the wire from it's connection port. You do not need to remove any screws or other hardware to release the pin connector. Just pull up on the sleeve and then pull up on the wire.
The Main battery connection is easy to disconnect, but also slightly more involved to disconnect than the power connector to the motor.
With the motor removed from the frame, I like to remove the bike from the bike stand and place the bike upside down on the ground. This allows for better viewing into the motor mounting shell and easier access to the wiring harness connection to the battery. If you don't remove the bike from the stand, you'll have to lay on your back and reach up inside the bike. Turn it upside down instead.
The battery connector is held in place with a black plastic "C" type clip and two screws. The black plastic "C" clip collars the battery connection lead and holds it firmly in place on the battery. You must first remove the two screws and then the black plastic C clip in order to disconnect the battery lead.
NOTE: After about 2,500 miles of riding, my Rise stopped working and issued an E20 fault code. This occurred after a bike trip involving many water crossings and a diligent washing and cleaning of my bike when I got back from the trip. When I removed the battery connection lead, I noticed a slight bit of crud caused by water ingression into the port. It's important to know that neither the motor power connector port or the battery connector port are 100% water proof. Over time and with enough water exposure, the pin connectors on the two ports can corrode and may loose connection. They need to be cleaned to re-establish a good electrical connection. If there is going to be any issues with a connection in the area of the motor, the main battery connection will be the most likely culprit.
I mentioned previously that I spoke to Shimano about using a dialectic grease to assist in keeping water out of the connection ports. Shimano advised against this. I was told the grease could possibly damage the connections or inhibit connection. Dialectic grease is typically used as an insulator to keep water out of connections. However, if too much grease is applied to the connection, i.e. you gob the stuff on like you're buttering a piece of toast, then it's possible over application may inhibit electrical connectivity. People have been safely using dialectic grease on electric connections for years. If the climate where I rode was wet, i.e. the United Kingdom, I would apply a "Judicious" amount of dialectic grease on all electrical connections. I'm from Southern California where it rains once a year....whether we need it or not. Water ingression isn't so much an issue for me. I do like to wash my bike....To quote the Beatles, it's a clean machine.....so, there's always that. I say use the grease.
To save yourself a lot of extra work, I'd start by checking the easy stuff first and then progress to the more difficult connections if the easy stuff doesn't correct your problem. I would unplug each wire connection and give the connection a spritz of electrical contact cleaner (Plastic safe). I would do this to both the male and female sides of the connections. This will clean and dry things out. When you are done, re-plug each wire back into it's port and I think you'll be good to go.
Here is some additional Shimano reading materials that may assist you and others.
Link One: DU-EP800 Dealer Manual
Link Two: Shimano Error Code Master Chart (Encompasses all Shimano power systems)
si.shimano.com
In regards to your other two error codes, E30 and E51. Both of these are associated with the Speed Sensor and loss of signal. I think the two error codes are likely attributed to water ingress and loss of electrical connectivity. The speed sensor wire connection at the motor is not water proof. I would unplug the speed sensor wire from it's connection port on the motor and give it and the port a good cleaning, dry things out. I think this will solve your no power issue.
Let me know how things work out.
Be safe,
Rod
I hope this helps you with your power issues.
Be safe,
Rod
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- Thread starter
- #9
Thanks. Where do you find the more informative (slightly) error descriptions you’ve provided? The ones in the E-TUBE app are useless.
Also I didn’t type the full error code because they all seemed the same. But you’ve give E020. Mine are actually
E01020
E01030
E01051
What are the full error descriptions for those codes?
Also I didn’t type the full error code because they all seemed the same. But you’ve give E020. Mine are actually
E01020
E01030
E01051
What are the full error descriptions for those codes?
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theremotejuggernaut
Active member
What a fantastic answer!
Just a quick point on the power button, on the alloy models the power button is held captive by a nut on the back of the switch. To get the button out, it's a motor off job.
No amount of prising, careful or otherwise is getting the switch out! At least not in one piece
Just a quick point on the power button, on the alloy models the power button is held captive by a nut on the back of the switch. To get the button out, it's a motor off job.
No amount of prising, careful or otherwise is getting the switch out! At least not in one piece
Just about. If you have some short entry allen keys, you can get in behind the chainring. The amount of time it takes to get the bolt out, and the amount of faff trying to get it back in makes it not worth trying unless you really desperate.
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Rod B.
Well-known member
You can find the error code chart somewhere on Shimano's super secret website. I found the master chart by Googling the term "EP8 Error Codes."
Shimano's website is not user friendly and finding the appropriate tech info can feel like a real Easter Egg hunt. In truth Shimano requires that you be a credentialed "Master Librarian" to understand how Shimano's mind works and therefore be able to successfully find what you are looking for. I'm not a credentialed librarian, so I'm ass out. I had to have a beer after looking everything up.....I may have another after writing this message.
Here's a link to the error code chart:
si.shimano.com
When reviewing the chart, you will note that some error codes start with an "E" and others start with a "W." This is an example of Shimano's mind at work. It would be too simple just to provide a listing of error codes. Shimano wanted to spice things up a bit. All "E" type fault codes, also called Error Codes, will completely shut your power system down if the motor's computer issues an "E" type error code. All "W" type error codes, also called Warning Codes, will not shut your system fully down. Performance will be impacted if a "W" type error code is issued, however the bike will still have some degree of power.
An example of an "E" type code which I've personally experienced is E020, i.e. loose or disconnected wire connection. When this type of code is issued, your bike will completely shut off until you locate the loose or disconnected wire.
An example of a "W" type code which I've personally experienced is W10100 (W011), i.e. No bicycle speed signal detected. I went through a phase when I first owned my Rise where I tried to reinvent the wheel. My Rise M20 came with Shimano two piston brakes and centerlock rotors. After a screaming downhill with no brakes, yes I was literally screaming....
I decided to upgrade the brakes. I had a new set of SRAM G2 brakes and rotors laying about in my garage. I installed them on the bike. At the time, SRAM did not make a centerlock rotor with magnetic pickup. I decided to glue a Neodymium magnet directly to the SRAM 200mm centerlock rotor I had installed on the rear of the bike. The magnet worked brilliantly for a few weeks. Then my Rise started to issue a W10100 fault code. My Rise would work and then not work after a hot downhill run. A few minutes later, my Rise would work again. WTF....
It turns out that if a magnet is glued directly to a brake rotor and the magnet is subjected to a high enough heat source, i.e. 70 Celsius/176 degrees Fahrenheit , the magnetic force will degrade and eventually loose magnetism. Once the magnet has had a moment to cool off, it will return to a magnetic state. If the magnet is exposed to enough repeated high heat cycles, the magnet will become permanently damaged and loose magnetism. My Speed Sensor was only sporadically picking up the weakened magnetic pulse after a downhill run. Once things cooled off, the speed sensor would again successfully pick up the magnetic pulse.
I ended up installing Shimano XT brakes and rotors on my Rise and I rode happily into the sunset....
I know somebody is going to call bullshit on heat exposure to magnets. Here are several articles explaining how heat will affect performance and damage a magnet.
The Effects of Superheating on Magnets
Learn about the effect of superheating on magnets in this AZoNano Editorial Feature.
www.azonano.com
What is the Effect of Heating Neodymium Magnets: Reversible vs. Irreversible Field Loss | Dura Magnetics
A Neodymium magnet may be used to supply a triggering field for a magnetic sensor. At various times of operation, the magnet may be exposed to a temperature which reduces the magnetic field to a level which the sensor will not be triggered. Other than during the high temperature exposure, the...
www.duramag.com
- Thread starter
- #12
Oh - that's dissappointing - theres no more information in there than you get in the E-Tube app. The codes must surely mean more to the distributor as otherwise there would be no sense in having different error codes with the same description
eg
01000/01010/01020
01030/01050/01051 must surely relate to different sensors.
254/4/9
eg
01000/01010/01020
01030/01050/01051 must surely relate to different sensors.
254/4/9
Rod B.
Well-known member
The error and warning codes that Shimano lists are commingled together and apply to all of Shimano's eBike power systems, not just the EP8 system. This is why on the list there appear to be codes which refer to the same malfunction and or sound similar. Keep in mind, one error code on the list may apply to a EP8 system, while another similar sounding error code may apply to the EP6 system, or EP801 system, etc. Yes...it would be much easier if Shimano listed error/warning codes specific to each power system. Where's the fun in that....?
It can be frustrating when companies such as Shimano are protective of their eBike power systems and don't provide the owner with detailed repair information or parts. Shimano would prefer that you take your bike to a Shimano authorized dealer for repair. Thus, there isn't much information out there which owners can use to make repairs to their eBike systems. Wires, mode switch, speed sensor, and connectors are available, but that's about it. If the motor on your Rise breaks, even outside of warranty, Shimano will provide a replacement motor. The defective motor is sent to a Shimano factory to be rebuilt by Shimano technicians. Unlike Bosch, Shimano does not offer rebuild kits or parts. Bosch on the other hand, offers motor rebuild kits. My guess is Shimano doesn't want some obscure overseas company producing cheap counterfeit EP8 motor knockoffs. Whether Shimano profits from this practice or it hurts the company remains to be seen.
- Thread starter
- #14
That's not the only problem - two of my codes from my motor have exactly the same description.
I've taken my bike to a dealer but disappointingly/ridiculously they get no more information from their PC app than I get in the mobile app (and that you've given above) - which means that, other than resetting the fault codes, there doesn't seem to be anything a dealer can do or diagnose that you can't do yourself (though of course the next step of sending motor to Shimano requires a dealer)
I'm not convinced Shimano do any rebuild/diagnoses or repair either - we've had a motor replacement under warranty for a cracked axle and Shimano didn't require the motor back. That *should* have been a fairly easy repair of a mechanical (rather than electronic) part.
- Thread starter
- #15
End result - definitely a motor failure. Despite riding for a week in super wet conditions the shop tech didn't find any signs of moisture in the connectors so that it failed at the end of that week just seems a co-incidence. They spent some time fiddling with all the connections suspecting something loose but the only thing that solved it was swapping for a known working motor.
So those who said early on 'it says it's a motor sensor failure - it's a motor sensor failure' were correct.
Replacement motor being supplied by Shimano UK which I'm really happy about. It would be interesting to have some idea what Shimano see as a target lifespan for motors - if it was on a city bike commuting every day could easily do 5000+ miles per year and I'd still think at least 5 years life would be the minimum I'd expect. 25k? 50k miles. Off road use is tough in some ways but distances are much shorter and life on a cargo bike would be pretty tough. I suspect the worst thing off road is pedal strikes.
So those who said early on 'it says it's a motor sensor failure - it's a motor sensor failure' were correct.
Replacement motor being supplied by Shimano UK which I'm really happy about. It would be interesting to have some idea what Shimano see as a target lifespan for motors - if it was on a city bike commuting every day could easily do 5000+ miles per year and I'd still think at least 5 years life would be the minimum I'd expect. 25k? 50k miles. Off road use is tough in some ways but distances are much shorter and life on a cargo bike would be pretty tough. I suspect the worst thing off road is pedal strikes.
Rod B.
Well-known member
The EP8 on my 2021 Rise had about 3,200 miles/5,470 km on it when I sold it to my brother. He doesn't ride it as much, but I'm guessing the bike now has about 3,800 miles/6,100 km and it's still working beautifully. The battery has started to loose some of it's range just a slight bit.
Pedal strikes are not good for the spindle bearings on any motor. Sometimes you can't avoid them, however if your Rise came with 175mm crank arms and a 140mm travel fork, you can greatly reduce pedal strikes by swapping out the crank arms for 160mm cranks and the fork with a 150mm or 160mm travel fork. Swapping out the crank arms and increasing fork travel will eliminate 98% of pedal strikes in technical rocky terrain.
Pedal strikes are going to happen, Captain Ahab, lower canyon wall section, Moab Utah
Captain Ahab
I'm glad you got the motor issues figured out.
Be safe,
Rod
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PureFM
New Member
There is a contact enhancer called Stabilant 22. We used it a lot on the aircraft I used to maintain, especially in plugs that were susceptible to moisture ingress.
It was so good that we were constantly running out of it as the guys who had 4x4's would pinch it. Wish I had taken some before I retired .... Never thought it would be something I would ever need .....
Don't buy it from an aviation source because it will have certification and thus you will need to sell your right and left testicle to afford it!
A google search revealed this: Stabilant 22, 5ml Kit Makes 30ml of 22A
It was so good that we were constantly running out of it as the guys who had 4x4's would pinch it. Wish I had taken some before I retired .... Never thought it would be something I would ever need .....
Don't buy it from an aviation source because it will have certification and thus you will need to sell your right and left testicle to afford it!
A google search revealed this: Stabilant 22, 5ml Kit Makes 30ml of 22A
Where would you use this on an e bike?
PureFM
New Member
In the electrical plugs, anywhere where there are electrical connections. You can read the science by searching for it but essentially it coats the electrical contacts (pins & sockets) with a substance that improves the electrical conductivity and provides corrosion resistance.
theremotejuggernaut
Active member
Dielectric grease is non conducive so not the same thing
TLDR: A conductive grease is never recommended to fix an electrical connector problem; a dielectric grease is always the best choice when choosing an electrical connector grease. If you are reading this because your connector has already failed or is failing intermittently, effective cleaning of the connector followed by an application of a quality dielectric electrical connector grease is the best solution.
Article here Not Recommended-Conductive grease use on electrical connectors
Google also says "Conductive greases should specifically match materials being clamped. Conductive greases should never be used in low pressure electrical connectors, or in connectors with multiple terminals."
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there is always so much confusion about dialectric grease! Firstly any silicon grease will achieve the same results ( since the main component of dialectric grease is silicon!) unless there are other issues to be dealt with other than moisture ( e.g. heat). To be clear the last place you would use any grease and more especially dialectric grease is on the metal to metal ( usually male to female) connectors. It is used to prevent moisture ingress near those connectors arcing onto other metal surfaces, in effect causing a complete or partial short circuit. A good example of how to use it is on a vehicle spark plug boot. rubbing a little of the grease on the inside of the boot being careful not to get any on the actual metal connector helps to insulate that metal connection should moisture get into the boot.
The best electrical connection is a clean metal to metal connection.....and that means clean from not only foreign material but also from oxidisation which is a natural chemical reaction between the electrical circuit and air. Electrical contact cleaner removes oxidisation deposits and help pretect the metal contacts from future oxidisation.
Most connectors on a emtb are either the male female pin arrangement common on charging points and battery main plugs, or male push fit connectors waisted with 2 or 3 seals pushed into female connection points, commonly used on the motor and also controller/mode switch/screen. So where and how would you use dialectric grease on these?
As far as battery/charge port connectors are concerned a small amount can be smeared on the flat surfaces ensuring that no grease actually goes onto the pins/recieving sleeves. This would help prevent arcing across one connector to another should the plug be subjected to water ingress. A dialectric or any lithium grease could be used on the outside of the plug once the connection is made to help prevent water ingress.
For the motor and other CAN push fit type plugs the best protection is achieved by using a silicon lube on the seal/seals and then packing any lithium grease around the connectors once the connection is made. There is no real benefit in using a dialectric grease here since the main objective is to provide protection from water ingress but is in fact nowhere near the metal conductor so arcing is not an issue.
With regard to motor connections, the a bove is all I have done ( from new) and the bike suffered no consequences from a couple of full immersions. Since the plastic motor covers are also not dust proof that copious area of grease all a round the 4 or 5 connectors gets dirty after a while so needs to be wiped out and renewed...but that is the only negative and I only do that once a year. I have no idea why brands do not seal off the entire connector area with a silicon gel in the first place...its not as if we are regularly connecting/disconnecting those terminals is it?!!
The best electrical connection is a clean metal to metal connection.....and that means clean from not only foreign material but also from oxidisation which is a natural chemical reaction between the electrical circuit and air. Electrical contact cleaner removes oxidisation deposits and help pretect the metal contacts from future oxidisation.
Most connectors on a emtb are either the male female pin arrangement common on charging points and battery main plugs, or male push fit connectors waisted with 2 or 3 seals pushed into female connection points, commonly used on the motor and also controller/mode switch/screen. So where and how would you use dialectric grease on these?
As far as battery/charge port connectors are concerned a small amount can be smeared on the flat surfaces ensuring that no grease actually goes onto the pins/recieving sleeves. This would help prevent arcing across one connector to another should the plug be subjected to water ingress. A dialectric or any lithium grease could be used on the outside of the plug once the connection is made to help prevent water ingress.
For the motor and other CAN push fit type plugs the best protection is achieved by using a silicon lube on the seal/seals and then packing any lithium grease around the connectors once the connection is made. There is no real benefit in using a dialectric grease here since the main objective is to provide protection from water ingress but is in fact nowhere near the metal conductor so arcing is not an issue.
With regard to motor connections, the a bove is all I have done ( from new) and the bike suffered no consequences from a couple of full immersions. Since the plastic motor covers are also not dust proof that copious area of grease all a round the 4 or 5 connectors gets dirty after a while so needs to be wiped out and renewed...but that is the only negative and I only do that once a year. I have no idea why brands do not seal off the entire connector area with a silicon gel in the first place...its not as if we are regularly connecting/disconnecting those terminals is it?!!
My guess is the contact enhancer used on aircraft is specific to the type of metal contact used and also required to help against the effects of abnormal atmospheric pressure. I see no need or benefit in its use on our bikes.
Twisted Fork
Member
Twisted Fork
Member
Thank you for correcting this pervasive misunderstanding about the proper use of dielectric grease in a clear way. So many folks out there are convinced the stuff should be slathered all over every electrical connection. I’m always seeing misdirected recommendations to goop connection clips full of the stuff. Worse, many people use it on their battery connection terminals where it acts like a super-magnet for abrasive grit and dust while actually impeding the current across the connectors. I agree that a shot of electrical cleaner spray in the battery connections every few rides is the best way to keep them functioning best.
Would you consider copying your post into a new thread on the General Discussion forum so it reaches more users and a conversation on the merits and pitfalls of dielectric grease can be had?
Would you consider copying your post into a new thread on the General Discussion forum so it reaches more users and a conversation on the merits and pitfalls of dielectric grease can be had?
be my guest!
PureFM
New Member
Perhaps you should read this: Posthorn | Stabilant 22
It was suggested as a possible solution or part of the solution.
Having used the product and seen how it worked I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my own eMtb or anyone elses if the need arose. Trouble is I don't have any and not commonly found here in NZ.
...all of those examples seem to be restricted to signal wires/contacts....ie low voltage so maybe useful on the CAN but maybe not on battery terminals which is where most of the problems exist with EMTB....and that is simply because those terminals are designed to be connected/disconnected ( battery removal/replacement...charger port) and it is not always the case that our 2/3 kg batteries are properly secured. There is a lot that can be done very simply to improve those scenarios.
-Keep them dry
-Keep them clean
-Make sure battery is properly secured
Deals with 99% of potential problems.
fitlikemike
Member
This is a brilliant post for solving a $h!tty problem.
It's got me to think my issue (dead bike) is maybe not the end of the world.
My M10 has been faultless for 3K and 18mnths now but today, not good. Fully charged I get power to the start button, it lights up as normal but then it turns off, repeat repeat, same same just not starting up. No go.
Looking at the diagrams and images I may just get it together and take this on myself. I suppose I should contact Orbea and ask about warranty but I just want to ride you know how it is, hassle I don't need. Who does?
Did you go out a purchase a new wiring loom? I want to do this job in a oner if I'm going to. I wonder is it as easy to fix as you say, it certainly looks that it doable.
I expect my first move should be to follow your first advice - I'll have to download the app and get the code that indicates the issue but as you rightly say it's going to be a connection somewhere that's duff.
Good post !
Cheers
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