Will EMtb cause the eventual demise of the Uplift ?

[jooles]

Will the rapid growth of eMtb see the progressive decline of uplift demand at bike parks ?

Factors Supporting a Decline:

Environment: Electric vs diesel burners
Availability: Much easier to book in on an Ebike than a limited supply uplift
Technology: Ebikes are getting lighter, batteries giving more distance/duration bikes getting better handling for DH and control software better
Trail Design: Bike parks are starting to accept ebikes manifested by climb specific trails and hiring ebikes
Revenue: Bike parks can run more Ebike users than uplift users so the overall revenue may be higher

Factors Against

User Profile: Hard Core DH users will want an uplift for their DH specific sled/eMtb will go to more XC oriented
Revenue: Bike parks are dependant on uplift revenues as a key part of overall income so will create policies to support accordingly
Trail Damage: Too many ebikes will create additional trail maintenance overheads



Will more XC oriented parks along the lines of Afan etc see more Ebike usage than the harder core DH such as BPW ?

Pitch in with thoughts. This is a medium/longer term thought so project forward 5-8 years too.

 

[Gary]

No.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

If i lived near an bike park with up lift, i wouldn't have an e-bike at all!

it's only cos my fitness isn't what it should be i have it for trail riding that's local to me and trips away etc to Wales (Afan etc) where i get the benefit.

If i was near BPW for example, i'd just run uplift days all the time.

 

[Mteam]

no, if there's an uplift available I'd much rather take my normal bike and pay for the uplift.

 

[jooles]

Of interest saw quite a percentage of ebikes at BPW yesterday hence my post.

I‘m not advocating either way.

You could live with a bike park near however BPW uplift is fully booked months in advance. Living near doesn’t get you to jump the queue.

If you lived near, had a capable Ebike, could just pay £15 or whatever and go anytime would that appeal also along with the odd uplift day when available?

 

[Hob Nob]

If i was near BPW for example, i'd just run uplift days all the time.

Even if it's quicker to ebike laps & more of them? (which has been my experience for the last 5 or 6 times).

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Even if it's quicker to ebike laps & more of them? (which has been my experience for the last 5 or 6 times).

Thats a fair point. Guess id have to try both ways...

 

[Zed]

Of interest saw quite a percentage of ebikes at BPW yesterday hence my post.

I‘m not advocating either way.

You could live with a bike park near however BPW uplift is fully booked months in advance. Living near doesn’t get you to jump the queue.

If you lived near, had a capable Ebike, could just pay £15 or whatever and go anytime would that appeal also along with the odd uplift day when available?

It's a good point I mean if the uplift is a long queue for a smelly van with smelly dudes the ebike would start to seem like a better option, certainly on hot days especially here in AUS.

However if we're talking chairlifts with epic scenery of snow capped mountains surrounding Queenstown then hell no, it's just a decision of Enduro or DH bike

 

[jooles]

It's a good point I mean if the uplift is a long queue for a smelly van with smelly dudes the ebike would start to seem like a better option, certainly on hot days especially here in AUS.

However if we're talking chairlifts with epic scenery of snow capped mountains surrounding Queenstown then hell no, it's just a decision of Enduro or DH bike

That’s a good point, the environment in which you bike could too have an impact…apart from me being insanely jealous of anyone biking around Queenstown

 

[flash]

Electric guitars didn't eradicate acoustic or classical guitars. They're related but not the same. Same with bikes. eMTB is just another class like downhill is different to XC.

Gordon

 

[jooles]

Electric guitars didn't eradicate acoustic or classical guitars. They're related but not the same. Same with bikes. eMTB is just another class like downhill is different to XC.

Gordon

Electric cars may eradicate fossil fuel cars ….again related but not the same although forms of transport

 

[Doomanic]

Electric cars may eradicate fossil fuel cars ….again related but not the same although forms of transport

Through legislation, not down to individual choice.

 

[jooles]

Fair point although who knows how far legislation will go ? Maybe uplift vans will need to be electric in the future ?

I’m looking beyond next year or that after out 10 years when I’d guess a fair few on this forum will be dependent on assistance;-)

Having seen sports live and decline in my current lifetime makes me think quite large shifts can occur with or without legislation.

Emtb has become a seismic shift in biking for sure.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Fair point although who knows how far legislation will go ? Maybe uplift vans will need to be electric in the future ?

They’d still get you to the top. ??

 

[jooles]

My thoughts are that the larger bikeparks with higher vertical climbs will keep uplift services. Of course in Alpine regions chairlifts can be utilised outside the ski season to take bikes, paragliders etc to the top of the hill so they will stay.

Those bike parks that have less verticality to them such as Windhill etc will see more ebikes as you can get so many laps in and not be knackered after 6 climbs.

The advent of ebikes may lead to more such bike parks. Bear in mind BPW didn’t even want ebikes a few years ago now they are installing Ebike specific “steep climbs”.

As Ebike design develops and the additional weight less of a handling penalty so you will see more buying them over “analogue “ .

The uplift won’t go I’m sure however more parks may setup without them perhaps ?

 

[Pan]

Dh & xc are essentially 2 different sports. Here in eastern Canada most lifts are at ski centers, cost of operation relatively limited, centers are trying to extend their revenue. Based on these 2 elements i do not think ebikes will change uplift stations. Cost of ebike a limitation also.

 

[jooles]

Where there is sunken cost in infrastructure it won’t change the uplift model due to the marginal incremental increase in cost to run the infrastructure and extend the value of investment out of ski season. Widely the case in the Alps of Europe and most ski resorts.

However not all locations suit themselves to skiing but do to DH biking (the Surrey Hills one such place ). I remember living in Guildford in the early 1990’s and riding all over the Surrey Hills on just paths. Now it’s a breeding ground for Redbull and DH champions. No uplift just pedal and I’m sure more ebikes are being used to get “laps” in.

So it will depend on environment. Perhaps the advent of ebikes will create new bike parks where there is little or no existing infrastructure.

Who knows. But one thing. EMtb is here to stay…in all its genres.

 

[Gyre]

Over Memorial Day weekend at Mammoth Mountain BIke Park, only the lower portion of the park is typically open and a shuttle service takes you up to a bus stop near the main lodge. I used the eMTB exclusively over that weekend and riding back up was a much better experience than waiting the 30-40 minutes it takes to reset with the shuttle. For that particular situation, I'll probably stick to the eMTB in the future.

When the park is properly open though, no way. There aren't any trails that are designated for uphill traffic to the summit, and there's a lot of drawback and negligible benefit to taking an eMTB on the lift. I'm sure the staff wouldn't appreciate you giving them a 50-60lb beast to wrangle as well.

 

[alan_sh]

OK - for those of us who don't live in the colonies, what is an uplift?

 

[Zed]

OK - for those of us who don't live in the colonies, what is an uplift?

A shuttle. A van/truck/chairlift to take you and your bike back up to the top of the hill/mountain.

 

[MrSimmo]

I doubt there will be a demise of the uplift but my use is definitely 50/50 -

For smaller hills such as the southish of the uk (417, windhill, bpw etc); I can get in as many runs on my emtb as with an uplift. At 417 I was doing 3 full runs for each of my mates uplifted 1. Bpw is 7-9 emtb and 7-9 uplift. Covid has made uplifts crap as theyre all limited in capacity and frequency so much slower.

For bigger hills such a fort bill/morzine/whistler etc, Im uplift 100% as youd be f*cked trying to climb that as many times as you can descend.

 

[JoeBlow]

If I lived right next door to one I would consider buying a standard bike and using the uplift. Not sure how I would afford that however, they are not cheap. Perhaps EMTB's will help force the price down?

 

[SwissMountainLeader]

If I lived right next door to one I would consider buying a standard bike and using the uplift. Not sure how I would afford that however, they are not cheap. Perhaps EMTB's will help force the price down?

I do live next door to a couple of lifts, the problem is they only take you to the top of those lifts the cost to me is basically zero

The top 10 or 15 ski stations in the alps will have over 2000m of elevation difference and over 200 have more than 1000m - eMTBS aren't making much of a dent in that. Over time, the number open for the summer is broadly increasing. Certainly no one would build or refurb a lift without considering MTB transport. Usefully lift infrastructure does come with power so charging is fairly easy

 

[JoeBlow]

I was talking about the van/bus uplifts that one finds in the UK. They seem to be about £40 for a days riding. I ride twice sometimes three times a week. That would cost me £120 a week to ride! That's too much for me. I've no idea what the ski lift passes cost but they do take you much further, perhaps they are better value for money?

 

[SwissMountainLeader]

I was talking about the van/bus uplifts that one finds in the UK. They seem to be about £40 for a days riding. I ride twice sometimes three times a week. That would cost me £120 a week to ride! That's too much for me. I've no idea what the ski lift passes cost but they do take you much further, perhaps they are better value for money?

30 Euro a day in the PdS I think. Free in some places if you're staying there.

Mega regional seasonal or yearly passes are a thing now. About 350 euro for 21 summer & 40 winter stations in this region for example.

 

[jooles]

30 Euro a day in the PdS I think. Free in some places if you're staying there.

Mega regional seasonal or yearly passes are a thing now. About 350 euro for 21 summer & 40 winter stations in this region for example.

This highlights how eMtb and their use in bike parks will vary according to environment in which used.

Mr Simmo has some good home grown stats above. Showing how an eMtb can be a real asset in those location were vertical climb is less, in the region of 2-300m per climb (read Welsh valleys and English Hills) however where it’s an alpine resort of 2000m that’s another matter.

Mr Mountain Leader may have experience of this but I’d say an efficient ski lift setup for bikes can uplift a large number of people a day. Also they are run on electric motors not diesel burners. Also seasonal passes are cost efficient.

When I’ve been to the Alps (seems so long ago now sadly) there’s no way I’d use an Ebike for a shuttle, however if wanted to head off into the mountains yes.

For places like 417, BPW etc an Ebike offers a super way to get the laps in. As Mr Simmo mentioned above. You don’t climb much over 6-700ft at these locations.

So if we were here were building a cooperative based bike park the uplift considerations would be based on …it seems geography ?

Additional consideration may be environmental impact. Having just electric powered bikes and analogue bikes only with no diesel based trucks taking you up the hill may sit better with local planners ?

Perhaps some here believe this all to be a rather facile discussion (I imagine Gary nodding with coffee in hand) however the two big growth areas in mtb in recent years are the Bike Park and EMtb.

And Specialized have/had “Shuttle Mode” on their bikes.