Trek Fuel EXe 500wh Battery Project

[MamboN5]

Hello everyone, I am a happy owner of a FUel Exe and I am doing some research on the battery with the idea of manufacturing a 500 wh to replace the current 350 wh, if I have written correctly 350 wh at best, My bike battery is made of Molicel M35A - 10A 3450mAh cells.
I suspect that the difference in autonomy with the fazua motor is due to the quality of the cells used. In theory, having a 50v motor would have to give an advantage in consumption since less intensity is required from the cells and that is decisive.
The idea is to put Samsung INR21700-50S 5000mAh - 35A cells.

Sorry for the translation is from google translate.

 

[mitea]

Hello everyone, I am a happy owner of a FUel Exe and I am doing some research on the battery with the idea of manufacturing a 500 wh to replace the current 350 wh, if I have written correctly 350 wh at best, My bike battery is made of Molicel M35A - 10A 3450mAh cells.
I suspect that the difference in autonomy with the fazua motor is due to the quality of the cells used. In theory, having a 50v motor would have to give an advantage in consumption since less intensity is required from the cells and that is decisive.
The idea is to put Samsung INR21700-50S 5000mAh - 35A cells.

Sorry for the translation is from google translate.

View attachment 102955 View attachment 102956

How many molicel cells are used? Do the samsung cells have more energy storage? Did you already teardown the battery? Could you share some pictures? Really interested what the inside of the battery pack looks like.

 

[MamboN5]

¿Cuántas células de molicel se utilizan? ¿Las celdas de Samsung tienen más almacenamiento de energía? ¿Ya desarmaste la batería? ¿Podrías compartir algunas fotos? Realmente interesado en cómo se ve el interior de la batería.

28 cell
does not have a guarantee seal

 

[MamboN5]

The TQ connector has 5 extra wires apart from the positive and negative and somehow turns the BMS on and off through them, also the system does not recognize another battery, the only thing I have discovered so far is that the charger gives a small voltage between 2 of the 5 extra wire when you connect it to the current and before connecting the battery, I don't know if it is a type of wake up.
The cells that I want to put increase the capacity up to 500 mAh and I have already seen that they fit, very tight but they do fit, since the motor is 50 V and the maximum power is 300W, only 3 A will be required from each cell, which makes that it is difficult for them to heat up, so we can put them together in a 3d printed casing easily and simply.
The original BMS is easily removable from the original battery to avoid compatibility problems.
The connector that reads the cell voltage is standard and the original battery can be left practically unchanged to be reassembled if necessary.
About 600 gr theoretical would be added.

 

[shure2]

The TQ connector has 5 extra wires apart from the positive and negative and somehow turns the BMS on and off through them, also the system does not recognize another battery, the only thing I have discovered so far is that the charger gives a small voltage between 2 of the 5 extra wire when you connect it to the current and before connecting the battery, I don't know if it is a type of wake up.
The cells that I want to put increase the capacity up to 500 mAh and I have already seen that they fit, very tight but they do fit, since the motor is 50 V and the maximum power is 300W, only 3 A will be required from each cell, which makes that it is difficult for them to heat up, so we can put them together in a 3d printed casing easily and simply.
The original BMS is easily removable from the original battery to avoid compatibility problems.
The connector that reads the cell voltage is standard and the original battery can be left practically unchanged to be reassembled if necessary.
About 600 gr theoretical would be added.

I've sent you a PM

 

[shure2]

28 cell
does not have a guarantee seal
View attachment 102958

Kinda surprised as the charger is 4A and the cells handle 1.7A continuous charging

 

[Cell4soul]

Hello everyone, I am a happy owner of a FUel Exe and I am doing some research on the battery with the idea of manufacturing a 500 wh to replace the current 350 wh, if I have written correctly 350 wh at best, My bike battery is made of Molicel M35A - 10A 3450mAh cells.
I suspect that the difference in autonomy with the fazua motor is due to the quality of the cells used. In theory, having a 50v motor would have to give an advantage in consumption since less intensity is required from the cells and that is decisive.
The idea is to put Samsung INR21700-50S 5000mAh - 35A cells.

Sorry for the translation is from google translate.

View attachment 102955 View attachment 102956

I will be watching this thread. A 500 wh battery would be perfect in the EX-e. I’d happily take the weight penalty.

Any chance you want to start a separate thread on this subject?

 

[Ddub]

Australia got stock before the UK? We are normally last on the list. My LBS has at least 5 on the floor at the moment. Go figure.

NZ is always last!!

 

[MamboN5]

te he enviado un MP

Gracias por tus comentarios, ya habia tomado en cuenta este detalle, ya que la bateria sera construida completa con su propio cable para la lectura de las celdas, la idea es conectar la nueva en paralelo y luego desconectar la antigua, en principio de esta manera se saltan la limitacion del bosch BMS a los extensores, conectan el extensor antes que el BMS y no tiene forma de saber de donde viene el voltaje.
Pongo este post a ver si alguien mirando el BMS o con alguna información que pueda dar niega que tenga este sistema de protección por el cual al desconectar el BMS se bloquea.
O puede proporcionar información sobre el proyecto.

Thanks for your comments, I had already taken this detail into account, since the battery will be built complete with its own cable for reading the cells, the idea is to connect the new one in parallel and then disconnect the old one, initially in this way they bypass the limitation of the bosch BMS to the extenders, they connect the extender before the BMS and it has no way of knowing where the voltage is coming from. I put this post to see if someone looking at the BMS or with any information that can give denies that it has this protection system by which when disconnecting the BMS it is blocked. Or you can provide information about the project.

 

[MamboN5]

Un poco sorprendido ya que el cargador es de 4A y las celdas manejan una carga continua de 1.7A

View attachment 102974

Yes, curious, and the real capacity of the battery with those cells is 350 Wh and not 360 Wh as advertised, surely everything is due to supply problems, with 3600 mAh cells in the market, why mount these 3500 mAh.

 

[MamboN5]

I will be watching this thread. A 500 wh battery would be perfect in the EX-e. I’d happily take the weight penalty.

Any chance you want to start a separate thread on this subject?

It seems good to me, let's see if together we can get the necessary information, I have no problem sharing the design of the necessary parts for 3D printing and an explanation of the assembly process, I already made a battery for a giant reign 2022.
An electronics expert would be of great help to give us information about the BMS and its possible blockages.

 

[ryandoubleu]

It seems good to me, let's see if together we can get the necessary information, I have no problem sharing the design of the necessary parts for 3D printing and an explanation of the assembly process, I already made a battery for a giant reign 2022.
An electronics expert would be of great help to give us information about the BMS and its possible blockages.

It would be great to start a dedicated thread on this topic. I’d be very interested in converting to a 500wh battery as well.

 

[BBFII]

Hello everyone, I am a happy owner of a FUel Exe and I am doing some research on the battery with the idea of manufacturing a 500 wh to replace the current 350 wh, if I have written correctly 350 wh at best, My bike battery is made of Molicel M35A - 10A 3450mAh cells.
I suspect that the difference in autonomy with the fazua motor is due to the quality of the cells used. In theory, having a 50v motor would have to give an advantage in consumption since less intensity is required from the cells and that is decisive.
The idea is to put Samsung INR21700-50S 5000mAh - 35A cells.

Sorry for the translation is from google translate.

View attachment 102955 View attachment 102956

Is your goal to put this NEW battery in the frame downtube? will the 21700 cell pack fit?
Any interest in the RANGE Booster to get you to your desire capacity? Or an even bigger Booster?

 

[Mteam]

Is your goal to put this NEW battery in the frame downtube? will the 21700 cell pack fit?
Any interest in the RANGE Booster to get you to your desire capacity? Or an even bigger Booster?

My view is that the internal battery is about the right capacity ,but i would be very interested in a range extender battery that was around 250wh compared to the official range extender at 160wh.

 

[dannyb]

If we replace the OEM battery with 500, what is the weight penalty?

 

[levity]

It's human nature to always want more than you have.

The simple solution is to adjust the power settings so that your battery runs out at the same time as the bike's battery.

 

[MamboN5]

 

[chade]

Wow, how much shorter is it than the original battery?

Also someone needs to make 2 seperate 160wh Batteries that clip together to make one in the bike.
As you are not allowed to take batteries over 160wh on planes but you are allowed to take 2 seperate 160wh batterie.

 

[MamboN5]

They are modules for testing, actually the battery will be as long as the original and somewhat wider in its section.

 

[shure2]

I'm really interested to see how you are getting on. I'm working on a another project with a similar aim, but I'm keeping quiet at the moment as TQ will likely release firmware's to try and block these kinds of modifications. Their charger is so proprietary, so far haven't been able to get it to provide 58.8v without being connected to the bike (thus the BMS).
I have got the charger to 'wake up', but it still doesn't provide more than 0.8v

 

[MamboN5]

Estoy muy interesado en ver cómo te va. Estoy trabajando en otro proyecto con un objetivo similar, pero me mantengo callado en este momento ya que TQ probablemente lanzará firmware para tratar de bloquear este tipo de modificaciones. Su cargador es tan patentado que hasta ahora no he podido lograr que proporcione 58.8v sin estar conectado a la bicicleta (por lo tanto, el BMS).
Tengo el cargador para 'despertar', pero sigue sin dar más de 0.8v

As you may have already discovered, there is CAN BUS communication between the motor and the battery. If you want to make an extender or a battery without using the TQ BMS, you must capture the data traffic and program a card that sends the information required by the system. At each restart, a complete check of the system is made. If everything is OK, the bike works, if not, no.
The awakening that the charger gives simulates the same that the battery gives to the motor controller, it is curious how it works, the battery gives power to the motor so that it checks the system and turns on the battery BMS to give the total voltage.
In the case of the charger, it gives the signal to admit charging and the battery gives the signal to the charger so that it gives the 58v charge.

 

[shure2]

Yes

View attachment 103325
As you may have already discovered, there is CAN BUS communication between the motor and the battery. If you want to make an extender or a battery without using the TQ BMS, you must capture the data traffic and program a card that sends the information required by the system. At each restart, a complete check of the system is made. If everything is OK, the bike works, if not, no.
The awakening that the charger gives simulates the same that the battery gives to the motor controller, it is curious how it works, the battery gives power to the motor so that it checks the system and turns on the battery BMS to give the total voltage.
In the case of the charger, it gives the signal to admit charging and the battery gives the signal to the charger so that it gives the 58v charge.

Yes I thought that waking the charger would be enough for it to provide a voltage, chargers are usually dumb, but this charger is smart.

Even using the charger ilwith another battery while it is charging the bike, I get an error 449B BAT HW. That error doesn't exist in the manual.

 

[shure2]

View attachment 103256 View attachment 103257 View attachment 103258

Samsung 50S are one of the best cells out there, but far higher amps than we need or will use. Did you think about using Samsung 50E instead for cost purposes?

 

[MamboN5]

the price difference in 28 cells is around €100, for that difference if I can, I mount the best available. The complicated thing in this case and more expensive in the form of hours invested is the design of the modules and especially the casing, of which I have already had 2 failed attempts, in fact it is the only thing that remains to be solved.

 

[MamboN5]

First rolls and load made without problems.

 

[MamboN5]

I proposed this topic here because I thought it would have more follow-up and support than in the mother-speaking forum I usually post to, but I was wrong, so if anyone wants information about the project, look for us in the ebikes reference forum in Spanish .

Greetings to all, for my part the thread is closed.

 

[Balboa]

Hi, I think a lot are interested in your project, but I am far from a electronic engineer....... Hopefully you keep us posted here.

 

[Mteam]

I proposed this topic here because I thought it would have more follow-up and support than in the mother-speaking forum I usually post to, but I was wrong, so if anyone wants information about the project, look for us in the ebikes reference forum in Spanish .

Greetings to all, for my part the thread is closed.

That's a shame,I would be interested to see where this gets to.

I can't really give you any help as im not an electronics engineer;but I was watching this thread.

 

[Psythepie]

I too was watching this thread as I find it fascinating & feel like I'm learning something so please keep updating it.

 

[Shades]

I proposed this topic here because I thought it would have more follow-up and support than in the mother-speaking forum I usually post to, but I was wrong, so if anyone wants information about the project, look for us in the ebikes reference forum in Spanish .

Greetings to all, for my part the thread is closed.

I believe a lot of people was following this, but I understand if you don’t want to update this. Could you post the link to the other thread?