Shimano's pitiful rate of innovation and updates...

[RickBullotta]

It amazes me how infrequently Shimano issues software/firmware updates. The hardware is very capable of doing SOOOOO much more than it is enabled to do today, but they just seem to really suck at software. Specific examples are :

1) enable the E8000 display to transmit full performance data via ANT+.
2) allow the consumer to adjust wheel circumference when swapping wheels/tires (a ton of eMTBs offer the ability to run 29 or 27.5+) - it's just stupid to require a dealer visit
3) enable customized displays of whatever key metrics you want to see
4) store and collect performance data to allow more accurate range estimates
5) a far more natural user experience in the eTube apps. they're awful and not intuitive.

And many more...

These are all super trivial things to do. Maybe Shimano should consider outsourcing software development to someone who knows what they're doing and who understands user experience!

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

these among other reasons is why I didnt end up buying a canyon or YT decoy.. its a shame because I really wanted one of those and the shimano was the dealbreaker.

 

[RickBullotta]

these among other reasons is why I didnt end up buying a canyon or YT decoy.. its a shame because I really wanted one of those and the shimano was the dealbreaker.

It's actually a great drive system overall - it's just that the software is such a weak link. They should sign @vadII up to do their software and firmware for them!

 

[Mauko]

these among other reasons is why I didnt end up buying a canyon or YT decoy.. its a shame because I really wanted one of those and the shimano was the dealbreaker.

Well I went for Decoy because of Shimano. No I have not tested all the other systems, so cannot really say objectively if this was the best decision... My reasoning was on the ”ability to execute” angle as I feel eg integrating the motor with rear derailleur givs them an edge. They can cut power momentarily when shifting. Also they could even rotate the front chainring when the bike is moving and do ”automatic” shift. This could be useful in tricky situations when you don’t want to rotate the cranks but want to shift to eg smaller gear.

But yes, they should provide more data and concentrate more efforts on the app and sw development in general.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Well I went for Decoy because of Shimano. No I have not tested all the other systems, so cannot really say objectively if this was the best decision... My reasoning was on the ”ability to execute” angle as I feel eg integrating the motor with rear derailleur givs them an edge. They can cut power momentarily when shifting. Also they could even rotate the front chainring when the bike is moving and do ”automatic” shift. This could be useful in tricky situations when you don’t want to rotate the cranks but want to shift to eg smaller gear.

But yes, they should provide more data and concentrate more efforts on the app and sw development in general.

i've no doubt they are great bikes and i'd have one in a heartbeat !

 

[Astom22]

Right now my biggest issue (only issue and not really a huge deal) with my brand new Decoy is the speed being about 25% off from GPS on the slow side. So it shows I'm riding at 17-18 mph but in reality I'm only going 12-13 mph.

Looks like I may need a software change to get closer to accurate, so I'm not losing motor assist at an actual 13 mph.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Right now my biggest issue (only issue and not really a huge deal) with my brand new Decoy is the speed being about 25% off from GPS on the slow side. So it shows I'm riding at 17-18 mph but in reality I'm only going 12-13 mph.

Looks like I may need a software change to get closer to accurate, so I'm not losing motor assist at an actual 13 mph.

Mine was about 15% off. I just used stunlocker to modify the wheel size until the display matched GPS.

Check the sensor wire into the motor and the magnet position incase it's just a cable or reading inaccuracy.

 

[RickBullotta]

Mine was about 15% off. I just used stunlocker to modify the wheel size until the display matched GPS.

Check the sensor wire into the motor and the magnet position incase it's just a cable or reading inaccuracy.

...but the Shimano sh*t should let you do this “out of the box”. I also dislike the way that the shimano system starts tapering boost down at 17-18 MPH

 

[Astom22]

Mine was about 15% off. I just used stunlocker to modify the wheel size until the display matched GPS.

Check the sensor wire into the motor and the magnet position incase it's just a cable or reading inaccuracy.

Did you have to buy the license and load older firmware to get the wheel size modification to work? I have stunlocker downloaded, but haven't connected with it yet. I'll check the plug and magnet first though. What bike are you riding?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Did you have to buy the license and load older firmware to get the wheel size modification to work? I have stunlocker downloaded, but haven't connected with it yet. I'll check the plug and magnet first though. What bike are you riding?

Yes, had to buy the licence for that part. Nice app though. From what I remember the latest version of the app works with the latest firmware. So you shouldn't need to mess around.

I had an e8000 Karma. Wasn't a huge fan to be honest (of the bike, liked the motor) kenevo now.

 

[filotnie]

My inner nerd totally agree with you. I love stats, metrics, computers and gadgets. Komoot, Strava, trailForks.. There are so many interesting details..
On the other hand.. I started riding.. and actually fuck it.. smallest display, and just ride.. actually my bike encourage that.. after all this is most important and I don't ride better with all those advancements. I find more fun relearning wheelie, manual, bh, having smoother ride.. jumping better then 15% off speed indications doesn't make me a difference. While cruising and on some bike hiking map is useful for sure but I prefer watching nature anyway.
When I will be good enough (at enduro, learn basics, get familiar with bike and couple of trails) I invest in Garmin850 or similar (or maybe even shockwiz and other) for stats and progress.

 

[RickBullotta]

I would suggest the reason why wheel size isn't adjustable is to prevent liability when people use this to get around the speed limit - in many places legal legislation. It is surprising to see some manufacturers have actually included this option.

I understand the rationale, but for bikes that support multiple wheel sizes it's a terrible inconvenience and cost to require a trip to a dealer (and the cost of their time). Cheaters will cheat anyway.

 

[Eckythump]

Did you have to buy the license and load older firmware to get the wheel size modification to work? I have stunlocker downloaded, but haven't connected with it yet. I'll check the plug and magnet first though. What bike are you riding?

You don’t need to downgrade the firmware, just need the license.

Only need to downgrade if you want to totally de-restrict.

 

[Astom22]

You don’t need to downgrade the firmware, just need the license.

Only need to downgrade if you want to totally de-restrict.

Thanks. Vadll got me all sorted out and bike is going great now.

 

[JimBo]

Classic first world problems! Since 2015, I have extensive experience - 1000s of trail miles each - with Shimano e8000, Bosch Performance Line Gen2 & CX Gen3, Brose T (on a Bulls), and Yamaha PW. IMO, Shimano's software is the best overall.

For one thing, it's the only one that lets me do my own updates. Yamaha and Brose offer no updates whatsoever, and Bosch's have to be done by a certified tech. Secondly, I'm able to adjust the output of each assist level on Shimano, but with the others I'm stuck with factory presets.

Giant/Specialized customize their Yamaha/Brose motors' software, of course, and also offer phone apps for user customization and updates. For my money, however, smaller brands offer better value, and for my riding, the e8000 performs best too.

This thread reminds me a bit of Louis CK's "Everything is amazing and no one is happy" rant a decade ago:

 

[RickBullotta]

Since 2015, I have extensive experience - 1000s of trail miles each - with Shimano e8000, Bosch Performance Line Gen2 & CX Gen3, Brose T (on a Bulls), and Yamaha PW. IMO, Shimano's software is the best overall.

For one thing, it's the only one that let me do my own updates. Yamaha and Brose offer no updates whatsoever, and Bosch's have to be done by a certified tech. Secondly, I'm able to adjust the output of each assist level on Shimano, but with the others I'm stuck with factory presets.

Giant/Specialized customize their Yamaha/Brose motors' software, of course, and offer phone apps for customization and updates. For my money, however, smaller brands offer better value, and for my riding, the e8000 performs best too.

This thread reminds me a bit of Louis CK's "Everything is amazing and no one is happy" rant a decade ago:

The fact that the other vendors "suck more" doesn't change the fact that Shimano's software sucks a lot. What I've proposed are absurdly easy fixes. Measured in person-days or person-weeks. Trivial. But Shimano just seems to be bad at software altogether. The UX feels like it was created by a hardware engineer, the limitations on wheel size setting is just silly, and the inconsistencies between the integration capabilities and data available via ANT+/bluetooth across the E6000/7000/8000 display units makes zero sense.

 

[JimBo]

"Suck more???" Don't quote me on something I didn't say. That's a paraphrase at best... I actually think they're all awesome!

 

[RickBullotta]

"Suck more???" Don't quote me on something I didn't say. That's a paraphrase at best... I actually think they're all awesome!

Fair enough. I actually think Specialized did it right.

 

[JimBo]

Someday I hope to experience a Spesh, maybe I'll like it more. But at 30% higher prices for comparably equipped bikes? Not at my current income ?

 

[AdrianJW]

Right now my biggest issue (only issue and not really a huge deal) with my brand new Decoy is the speed being about 25% off from GPS on the slow side. So it shows I'm riding at 17-18 mph but in reality I'm only going 12-13 mph.

Looks like I may need a software change to get closer to accurate, so I'm not losing motor assist at an actual 13 mph.

My Merida eONE SIXTY was exactly the same, reading 25% high for speed and distance. Took it back to the dealer who had to get Shimano to connect up to the bike remotely via a laptop and recalibrate the software.
I have 27.5+ so heaven knows what the wheel circumference had been set to!

 

[Astom22]

My Merida eONE SIXTY was exactly the same, reading 25% high for speed and distance. Took it back to the dealer who had to get Shimano to connect up to the bike remotely via a laptop and recalibrate the software.
I have 27.5+ so heaven knows what the wheel circumference had been set to!

They had mine set at 3000mm and my 27.5x2.8 is only 2281.55mm. 3000mm might have been set for one of those old big wheel on the front bikes from the 1800's. ?

YT was working on setting up with a local shop to get everything flashed, but I took the $30 route for Stunlocker (cheaper than gas would have been running back and forth to the shop twice).

Had my first real ride today of 20 miles and it was amazing!

 

[Rusty]

I also dislike the way that the shimano system starts tapering boost down at 17-18 MPH

I had a US spec 2019 Scott with the e8000 and a Levo with the Brose. The Shimano motor started tapering off around 28kph, but i could peddle through that and on long shallow declines could peddle up to 40sh. With the Speshy it starts tapering off at 29kph but is like hitting a brick wall at 32kph and no way can I peddle it past there.

As far as the software apps go - OEM stuff only and not taking into account the 3rd party stuff I think the Shimano app is good enough.
To be fair, the Speshy app was better initially as far as adjusting levels etc as the Shimano app only adjusted Trail & Turbo - that however has been rectified lately. I did however prefer the Shimano app for updating firmware.

Having a good relationship with most of the local shops due to my years with our local MTB club including 10 or so on the committee and doing lots of sponsorship begging I can call up and discuss issues with them and get good response. According to a couple of the biggest volume sellers locally the biggest issues they have with ebikes are when users start faffing around with various apps and completely borking things.

 

[AdrianJW]

They had mine set at 3000mm and my 27.5x2.8 is only 2281.55mm. 3000mm might have been set for one of those old big wheel on the front bikes from the 1800's. ?

YT was working on setting up with a local shop to get everything flashed, but I took the $30 route for Stunlocker (cheaper than gas would have been running back and forth to the shop twice).

Had my first real ride today of 20 miles and it was amazing!

Maybe 3000mm is the manufacturing default and some then don’t get calibrated when the bike is assembled.
Enjoy!

 

[Astom22]

Maybe 3000mm is the manufacturing default and some then don’t get calibrated when the bike is assembled.
Enjoy!

That's what I was guessing, it just never got flashed and was at the default/max circumference setting. Plus it was still set to EU and I live in Texas (not part of the EU ?)

 

[Borist]

There is definitely a big room for improvement on the software side for Shimano system. I thought the same some time back about Sony products. I wonder if this is more common in Japanese products. Great hardware execution, software only so so. Priorities?

 

[MassDeduction]

My Merida eONE SIXTY was exactly the same, reading 25% high for speed and distance. Took it back to the dealer who had to get Shimano to connect up to the bike remotely via a laptop and recalibrate the software.
I have 27.5+ so heaven knows what the wheel circumference had been set to!

Model year 2016 for Shimano-eqipped Raleighs, and model years 2017 and 2018 (and even some 2019s) for Opus e-bikes, were all set to 2400mm cirumference (29er Plus). That was the default at that time, at least for the motors they were speccing (E6000 and E6100). Apparently the manufacturer of the bike has to customize a file and send it to the factory for all the defaults to be set correctly, and it's not uncommon for this step to be missed from time to time.

 

[RickBullotta]

There is definitely a big room for improvement on the software side for Shimano system. I thought the same some time back about Sony products. I wonder if this is more common in Japanese products. Great hardware execution, software only so so. Priorities?

In short, yes.

 

[Andy Garnell]

Right now my biggest issue (only issue and not really a huge deal) with my brand new Decoy is the speed being about 25% off from GPS on the slow side. So it shows I'm riding at 17-18 mph but in reality I'm only going 12-13 mph.

Looks like I may need a software change to get closer to accurate, so I'm not losing motor assist at an actual 13 mph.

Hi. Are you in the US ?? Could be that they have you on EU settings ???

 

[Astom22]

Hi. Are you in the US ?? Could be that they have you on EU settings ???

It was. I used stunlocker to read my settings. YT was making arrangements for me to use a local shop to get my bike on US, but it was cheaper than the gas and missed riding time to pay $30 for the full Stunlocker app and do it myself.

Bonus is, I can adjust my rear circumference to any new tires I buy and not need another trip to the bike shop each time.

 

[Andy Garnell]

It was. I used stunlocker to read my settings. YT was making arrangements for me to use a local shop to get my bike on US, but it was cheaper than the gas and missed riding time to pay $30 for the full Stunlocker app and do it myself.

Bonus is, I can adjust my rear circumference to any new tires I buy and not need another trip to the bike shop each time.

Hi. My brother in law has just got his YT back again here in Germany!! Dont ask !!!! They had relaced the motor this time. BUT poor service again they had not even set up the wheel size !! ON A PLUS POINT bought the same soft ware and has sorted it himself plus flagged as a US model and now has 25MPH !!! Just need then to switch it back to EU when it has to go back again !!