re-post Trek Powerfly vs Focus Jam2

[jatich]

I posted a question in the Trek forum but it's actually about Trek AND Focus so I should have posted here in the general forum. Sorry about this.

My re-post:

12 years ago, circumstances made me quit sport from one day to another and it was the start of a very unhealthy lifestyle.
In an attempt to rekindle my love for biking again I desided to start this winter with a daily 2x10km commute to work with the goal to build my condition back up from scratch to good enough for weekend trips to the Ardennes in Belgium.

I found two deals from Trek : a 2017 Powerfly 9 FS LT 2017 for 3.99 and a 2018 Trek Powerfly 7 FS Plus for the same price.
The main differences are the Powerfly 7 RockShox Recon RL 130mm fork vs RockShox Pike RC Solo Air 150mm and the Shimano SLX 11-speed vs SRAM EX1 8-speed groupset.
As I understand it the biggest change from 2017 to 2019 model is the respectively not- semi- and full integrated battery. Geometry didn’t change, so it is more an esthetic thing and maybe a slightly lower center of gravity, right?

Another option is a focus JAM2 29 with RockShox Revelation RC, 140 mm travel and Shimano SLX groupset (rear derailleur is XT) for 3500 euros.

I guess the choise to make will be between the Powerfly 9 2017 and the Focus Jam 2018...

Who can help me out of this dilemma?
Every opinion will be very much appreciated, I’m a bit lost ?‍

 

[MattyB]

If you are buying this bike mostly for an on road commute, I would humbly say neither... An MTB (even an eMTB) is not best commuting tool. I suggest you look at ther (potentially e-powered) commuting options - there are loads out there now, and they are a fair bit cheaper than an eMTB too. If you want the MTB for the weekends though and the commute is a more minor consideration I would say the Focus over the Powerfly - the powertrain is better IMO, and it has slightly more contemporary geometry. Remember you will need to budget for the Tec pack though if you want to do longer rides.

 

[jatich]

The distance to work is only 10kms (6 miles). The fun part will be the weekend rides. I also love the comfort of a fully. I do commute every now and than with my sons race bike. That is diffinitly not a cummuter bike

 

[steve_sordy]

I am biased as I have just ordered a Focus Jam2.

Having got that out of the way, I have tried the Trek and the Focus and a host of other bikes too. There were two big factors in the end that decided me upon the Focus.
First: The Focus doesn't have a Bosch motor! I thought the Bosch was too noisy. The Bosch motor also meant that any bike powered by it is draggy without pedal assist (either with motor off, or above the cutoff speed). On a flat tarmac road, I could not go faster than 17.7 mph. Other riders love the Bosch for different reasons to me.
Second: The Focus was the first eBike I rode where I forgot it was an eBike and just got on with the fun of the ride. I put that down to the Shimano Steps motor and the way it delivered its power.

Other riders are looking for different things to me from their bike and could care less about the limitations of the motor. You need to ride the bikes before deciding to buy. They are too much money not to do so unless you know what you are doing.

 

[highpeakrider]

I’m with Steve I also went for a Focus due to the bike fit and the motor.
For going to work you may find it a more relaxed ride if you swap the flat bars for a 30mm riser bar, just done this with mine due to a back injury and it feels great.

 

[jatich]

That makes 0-3 for the Focus
Unfortunately, I can't try the bikes. But according the reviews they both have a relaxed riding position and about the same comfortable reach (mm Focus445-Trek449).
Ik might do the 30mm rise and I will use a speedship to get rid of the motor cut off.

 

[Ron]

My wife picked the Focus Jam2 plus 27.5 and a 82 year old friend got the Pro 29 with Di2 shifters. You get a lot of bike with Focus for the money. The Trek powerfly bikes are good but I really like the Focus bike my wife got, the Shimano Step engages quickly for her at a stop uphill, the 378kwh battery saves weight and gives her all the riding time she can use. One thing I did not like about the Trek when I tested is was the coasting drag and the tiny crank and guide gear used by Bosch. Both are good bikes I just would prefer a Focus based on the two I have ridden with and a friend who has the Powerfly 7.

 

[jatich]

I'm glad to hear about your 82 year old friend I have wasted so much (sport) time (but I have lived more in the last 10 years than in my whole previous live ). Anyway, I'm 54 years old now. I surently won't relive my glory days, but I will enjoy getting outside in the nature more than ever, but in a different way.

 

[steve_sordy]

Whichever bike you get, make sure it is set up so that the grips can swing right over the top tube without the levers or other bits striking the top tube.
Yes, I know, it's standard stuff. But I found a few bikes that I tested where they were not set up that way. One off and you could break the bar furniture or at best badly scratch the top tube.

 

[bissona]

Another vote for the Focus, especially that version as it has just the right spec for the money, but I have yet to ride a Trek so couldn't say for sure. I have tried Bosch-driven bikes though and definitely preferred the Shimano motor.

 

[Doomanic]

If you want the MTB for the weekends though and the commute is a more minor consideration I would say the Focus over the Powerfly - the powertrain is better IMO, and it has slightly more contemporary geometry.

The Shimano motor is better but the geometry is remarkably similar, certainly close enough that only Gary or Sam Hill would notice the 4mm shorter chainstays and 0.5 deg steeper effective seat tube angle. The Trek has a much higher spec than the Focus. And a bigger battery.

The motor isn't that bad over the cut off, I can hold 18-20mph on flat tarmac on mine. I wouldn't want to ride up Snowdon on it, but then I wouldn't deliberately ride any of them un-powered for any great distance, I mean, why buy an eBike if that's your thing? And OP said he was planning on chipping it (naughty, naughty) so that removes the Bosch's disadvantage anyway.

 

[jatich]

I'm leaning towards the Focus, but I'm reconcidering the full suspension option as I found a good deal on the Bold hardtail (2650 euro - same groupset). That will allow me to buy a larger and more comfortable frame [for commuting]. If I get realy back into mountain biking I will have a better view on what's best for me, besides ... I have 3 boys that will love to see me buy another bike anytime soon
Anyway, thank you all for the good advices, I really appreciate it.

Doomanic: I don't know where Snowdon is but you make me hesitate again Hmm, I love to figuring out things and I know that I can't go wrong either way, but give me a break, I need to decide And hey, I'm not naughty, I ride faster than that stid 25km/h limit with my sons race bike.

 

[Doomanic]

I don't know where Snowdon is

It's a small hill in Wales...

 

[Doomanic]

Something to consider with the Focus is that the battery is not easily removable which could be a problem when storing the bike in cold weather or charging.

 

[highpeakrider]

Something to consider with the Focus is that the battery is not easily removable which could be a problem when storing the bike in cold weather or charging.

Didn’t even think about it to be fair.

So you store the battery inside, then take it out where it’s say -1 degrees, you ride fast on a windy day.

How long before the battery reaches the normal outside temperature and what exact benefit has been gained by having it inside?
What happens if I perform a charge before I ride to warm it up?

 

[Lad]

I'm leaning towards the Focus, but I'm reconcidering the full suspension option as I found a good deal on the Bold hardtail (2650 euro - same groupset). That will allow me to buy a larger and more comfortable frame [for commuting]. ..

I have Bold Plus which I bought secondhand in mint condition. After 5 months of using it on dirt, I decided to also use it for commute (2x14km, 2 short but steep climbs). Really enjoyed it, but the asphalt was chewing knobs on my DHF/DHR 2.8" at alarming rate. These tyres are not cheap here.

Had I brief look at dedicated e-commuters, but the decent ones were more expensive than Bold, some of them prices (Spesh) are eye-watering.

So I decided to build a commuter set of wheels. I could spend a lot of money on good wheels, but restricted myself from going overboard considering their intended use.

Got really good deal on Shimano MT's 24mm internal, 203mm SLX brake rotor (F), 11-42t XT cassette and 180mm Shimano centerlock rotor with integrated magnet. This rotor however requires a mod to work with sensor on Focus bikes.

Tyres are Schwalbe 2.4" Super Moto-X.

Wheel swap takes me less than a minute, including hoisting it on stand.

The difference in how the bike rides on asphalt is quite remarkable. I'm really happy with the result and the new wheelset should repay itself pretty quickly by saving on buying Minions three times per year. Reading some user reviews on Schwalbes Moto-X they last forever.

Happy days.

 

[Doomanic]

Didn’t even think about it to be fair.

So you store the battery inside, then take it out where it’s say -1 degrees, you ride fast on a windy day.

How long before the battery reaches the normal outside temperature and what exact benefit has been gained by having it inside?
What happens if I perform a charge before I ride to warm it up?

Extremes of temperature aren't good for Lithium cells. It's better not to store them in a cold environment, I believe room temperature is best. To remove the battery from the Focus you have take the motor out...

 

[jatich]

Good advice Lad, thanks!

 

[steve_sordy]

How cold is cold? What temperature are we talking about?

There is no way my wife will let me store a bike in the house, but the garage is well insulated and never goes below freezing, not even when it was -15degC outside.

 

[highpeakrider]

Extremes of temperature aren't good for Lithium cells. It's better not to store them in a cold environment, I believe room temperature is best. To remove the battery from the Focus you have take the motor out...

So in theory you believe, but can’t provide any technical evidence, data or working evidence?

That doesn’t seem a sound way to discount a bike.

I think it would be better if people could evidence the difference in performance between summer and winter mileage where a bike is stored in an unheated garage.

It could all be hearsay with minimal % difference that’s not really worth worrying about.

 

[Doomanic]

That doesn’t seem a sound way to discount a bike.

I didn't say to discount it, I just pointed out something that is worth considering. It's been covered on this very forum several times.

It's not specifically about the performance of the cells, but the lifespan.

You could always do your own research, rather than expecting everything to be handed to you on a plate.

 

[bissona]

From my limited research I couldn't find anything at all that indicated any degradation of the battery at the sort of low temperatures we're likely to see in northern Europe, but there's plenty of evidence to show how they struggle to release charge when things get cold. That said, they need to be really cold to have a noticeable impact, like sub-zero...

We did a week's worth of riding recently in temperatures from 0C to 15C and didn't notice any substantive drop, but we were keeping the bikes somewhere where they were unlikely to dip below 5C overnight.

Interestingly, there's plenty of research to show how LI batteries degrade due to hot weather, even to the point of explosion, so having your main battery in the frame might not be so bad when it's laying in the sun in the middle of summer!

 

[highpeakrider]

I didn't say to discount it, I just pointed out something that is worth considering. It's been covered on this very forum several times.

It's not specifically about the performance of the cells, but the lifespan.

You could always do your own research, rather than expecting everything to be handed to you on a plate.

I will do my own research over the winter and form my own opinion, I did have a quick search on the internet to confirm your claims but couldn’t which is why I asked you to confirm.

It would make a good thread though to see if any of us actually see any difference and what the average temp is.

 

[highpeakrider]

So back on track, I think you can ignore the battery side track.

The Focus is a great bike with the standard battery if you like doing quick 2 hour or under loops and you get a benefit of a slightly lighter bike. You can also choose 27.7 Plus or 29 wheels.

If you want to do longer loops factor in the cost of the TEC pack, although compared to the others its a cheap option and the only bike that provides an engineered solution to carry the battery on the bike, on all others its carry in a rucksack.

Cost wise it seems a good option and i'm very happy with mine and would buy the same again.

 

[knut7]

As long as it's stored in temperatures above 0*C the battery should be okay. If it drops below 0*C the battery won't recharge. Discharge is safe down to -20*C. Chances are you'll have lower battery capacity when it's cold outside.

With the Focus you could consider getting the TEC battery. That can be stored/charged inside. The internal battery could just rest inside the frame at say 60% state of charge during the cold period.

 

[MattyB]

As long as it's stored in temperatures above 0*C the battery should be okay. If it drops below 0*C the battery won't recharge. Discharge is safe down to -20*C. Chances are you'll have lower battery capacity when it's cold outside.

No chance in it - all batteries irrelevant of chemistry exhibit reduced capacity when cold (most published perf data is gathered at a temp of 20 degrees C). I know this extremely well from flying RC models through the winter; durations are always lower on electric powered aircraft when the mercury drops.

Discharging at High and Low Temperatures

 

[MattyB]

I will do my own research over the winter and form my own opinion, I did have a quick search on the internet to confirm your claims but couldn’t which is why I asked you to confirm.

It would make a good thread though to see if any of us actually see any difference and what the average temp is.

Should be useful, lots of links...

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries
Discover what causes Li-ion to age and what the battery user can do to prolong its life.

Battery research is focusing on lithium chemistries so much that one could imagine that the battery future lies solely in lithium. There are good reasons to be optimistic as lithium-ion is, in many ways, superior to other chemistries. Applications are growing and are encroaching into markets that previously were solidly held by lead acid, such as standby and load leveling. Many satellites are also powered by Li-ion.

Lithium-ion has not yet fully matured and is still improving. Notable advancements have been made in longevity and safety while the capacity is increasing incrementally. Today, Li-ion meets the expectations of most consumer devices but applications for the EV need further development before this power source will become the accepted norm.

As battery care-giver, you have choices in how to prolong battery life. Each battery system has unique needs in terms of charging speed, depth of discharge, loading and exposure to adverse temperature. Check what causes capacity loss, how does rising internal resistance affect performance, what does elevated self-discharge do and how low can a battery be discharged? You may also be interested in the fundamentals of battery testing.

BU-415: How to Charge and When to Charge?
BU-706: Summary of Do’s and Don’ts

 

[knut7]

The BMS can kick in while there's still a considerable ammount of energy left in the battery, as illustrated by the graph and particularily by the 2C curve. But if you're riding at a low assistance level, in easy terrain, the difference might not be that many percent.

Edit: struggling a bit to out this intro words.

 

[jatich]

Hi guys,
Am verry happy with all the feedback you gave me and I have made a decision. I'm going for the Focus 29er Bold with the T.E.C. pack. No extra wheels but I will order a set of Maxxis Grifter 29x2.50" for commuting. I was a tire freak back in the days and changed tires all the time so I'm OK with that.
Good forum, good people here.
Ciao

 

[jatich]

Order is out. I have changed the Maxxis for Continental Double Fighter III Sport. I'm rather excited, must admid, more than when I bought my BMW Nine T