New Pinion integrated gearbox and motor (MGU)

[G-Sport]

More I read about integrated motor and gearbox units, more skeptical I become about the value add.

In my opinion, it's basically introducing more mechanical complexity, slapping more electronics prone to failure, making your bike's transmission more difficult to repair (on your own), creating a single point of failure, and all this at a higher cost!

Aren't we talking about ebikes here, and not about high powered motorcycles that would clearly justify the need of a gearbox?

C'mon, this sounds to me more like luxury than anything essential on eMTBs... It'll good for the business though!

Is it more mechanical complexity though?
Typical system now is 12 sprockets, 100+ links of chain (each composed of 4 parts), rear derailleur comprising 2 inner and outer links pivoting on 2 pins between a top and bottom knuckle, the bottom knuckle housing a clutch and a spring, then inner and outer cage plates sandwiching 2 jockey wheels each running on it's own bearing... etc etc (not to forget that all this is just hanging out as one of the lowest parts of the bike exposed to every rock and all the mud)

12 speed gearbox has 4 input gears, 7 engageable intermediate gears running on an axle, and 3 output gears. Yes there are a few parts associated with engaging the gears but it's probably just a handful of parts. Then 2 drive pulleys/sprockets and (optionally) just a single part belt or a straight run of chain that doesn't need to flex in every direction.

Seems simpler to me. No high low or B screw adjustment, no need to get the chain length just right for the gears to work correctly. No need to drop the suspension to check chain length. No trimming to get the derailleur to line up with the gears and no scratching your head and reaching for the derailleur hanger "adjustment" tool when the top gears line up perfectly but the bottom ones are a mess etc. No washing the crap out of the chain and then drying and re-lubing between every ride in the winter.

 

[emtbeast]

It's not the MGU but the 12 Speed gearbox...anyway I thought it was interesting to see...

Assembly of a Pinion C1.12 Gearbox #shorts

Made in Germany is not just a marketing claim for us. Every Pinion gearbox is assembled by hand here in Denkendorf near Stuttgart. Having a great infrastruct...

youtube.com

 

[emtbeast]

Has anyone actually weighed an MGU yet ? Pinion state 4.1kg, but Fit state 3.9kg. I wonder if one is wet and one dry ?

It's probably a mistake on FIT's side, as you say Pinion states:
4,1 kg - MGU 12 speed
4,0 kg - MGU 9 speed

If you go look at FIT site, they state
3,9 kg for both and also another mistake would be that they state 9 gears in the technical description for both MGUs.

I would take Pinions weight for granted, but yes you could be right about the wet/dry weight assumption .

 

[maynard]

Well seeing as EMTB's are not essential at all then I don't understand your point.

Wrong! Mine is essential.

 

[M AP]

I allways tought that in an emtb and on an ebike in gerenal a lot of energy is waisted in termal energy while braking downhill. Could the new Pinion motor be a first step for a future when our batteries could be recarged while going downhill, in a similat way as electric cars do? I understad this won't be easy to delevop in an eMTB given the way we brake hard but just think about the possibilities to have much smaller batteries and brakepads that last longer.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I allways tought that in an emtb and on an ebike in gerenal a lot of energy is waisted in termal energy while braking downhill. Could the new Pinion motor be a first step for a future when our batteries could be recarged while going downhill, in a similat way as electric cars do? I understad this won't be easy to delevop in an eMTB given the way we brake hard but just think about the possibilities to have much smaller batteries and brakepads that last longer.

There's already many threads on this. Just search for regen or kers. Ultimately there's not generally enough energy in a bike to make this work as effectively as you'd imagine.

 

[The EMF]

one of my emtb was converted to a 12 speed to get better efficiency and higher top end along with smaller step between gears. The notion that the 12 speed is for analogue is bs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you can power through your in the right gear.

True !

 

[Lee Dove]

I allways tought that in an emtb and on an ebike in gerenal a lot of energy is waisted in termal energy while braking downhill. Could the new Pinion motor be a first step for a future when our batteries could be recarged while going downhill, in a similat way as electric cars do? I understad this won't be easy to delevop in an eMTB given the way we brake hard but just think about the possibilities to have much smaller batteries and brakepads that last longer.

Why are you braking when going downhill, just go faster !

 

[G-Sport]

Why are you braking when going downhill, just go faster !

Corners

 

[Suns_PSD]

Well done Rob, been thinking about doing it yesterday as I had a feeling it could be close, decided to add up to your calculation, so checked the approximate weights of the gates rear and front sprockets as the front sprocket is probably not included into the MGU weight. There is also the belt tensioner and the belt snubber at the rear.

Rear sprockets: https://www.bike24.com/p2141322.html

• 22-Teeth CDX - 63g
• 24-Teeth CDX - 73g
• 26-Teeth CDX - 103g

Front sprockets: https://www.bike24.com/p2181007.html

• 39 teeth - 63 g
• 46 teeth - 95 g
• 50 teeth - 84 g

Belt tensioner: PINION BT1 Riemenspanner für Gates Riemen - Bikebude24 - Shop, 114,98

• Pinion BT1-Riemenspanner - 190 g

Gates Belt Snubber: https://www.bike24.com/p2141597.html

• Gates Carbon drive Snubber - 42 g

So adding these into the calculation(using the happy medium as I do not know which tooth count sprockets are being used) it adds up to:

• Pinion 12 MGU, FIT 720Wh 48v Battery, Gates belt & sprockets: 8388 g
• Bosch CX, 750wh and XX Transmission: 8384 g

It all comes pretty much even

Love the weight analysis.

However, that Simplon with the new Pinion seems awfully heavy for some reason.

Anyways, I'm certain that integrated transmissions are the future of e-bikes as it only makes sense.

I have a 1 month old e-bike, but don't see myself buying another unless it contained this sort of technology.

Hopefully a mid power version will be released in time.

 

[Lee Dove]

Love the weight analysis.

However, that Simplon with the new Pinion seems awfully heavy for some reason.

Anyways, I'm certain that integrated transmissions are the future of e-bikes as it only makes sense.

I have a 1 month old e-bike, but don't see myself buying another unless it contained this sort of technology.

Hopefully a mid power version will be released in time.

Why would you want a mid power version? All you need is the smaller battery and don't use the motor in full mode to get the same weight as the majority saving is in the battery.

 

[Kimmoi]

Love the weight analysis.

However, that Simplon with the new Pinion seems awfully heavy for some reason.

Anyways, I'm certain that integrated transmissions are the future of e-bikes as it only makes sense.

I have a 1 month old e-bike, but don't see myself buying another unless it contained this sort of technology.

Hopefully a mid power version will be released in time.

AND the tensioner… it’s placed same stupid way at Simplon and Bulls. Or is it only way to place it?
These bikes has low bb’s(i.e. vs Pole), that tensioner will have a hit with rock/tree at some point.

I love that idea with Pinion, but i think i will ride with my Levo(or new Levo) to the sunset. Maybe if Pole Sonni rebirths with Pinion i might change my mind.

 

[emtbeast]

Love the weight analysis.

However, that Simplon with the new Pinion seems awfully heavy for some reason.

Anyways, I'm certain that integrated transmissions are the future of e-bikes as it only makes sense.

I have a 1 month old e-bike, but don't see myself buying another unless it contained this sort of technology.

Hopefully a mid power version will be released in time.

Yes you have a point there, I was wondering why that is also, with it's 25,3 kg it's probably scratching the no go zone for some people. While this is not an official Simplon weight but from the E-mountainbike magazine review I think we should wait until Simplon put the bike in thier configurator.

Although this weight is probably correct as the test bike had Magic Marys Super Gravity Super Soft tires and those are quite chunky.

We were comparing the Bosch and Pinion system and the result was the Pinion one should be slightly lighter...these are the weights for the Pinion Rapcon CX bike...



It is about 500g lighter than the Simplon Pinion with the same tires(check in the configurator).

So there is a difference somewhere...will have to wait and see...

 

[emtbeast]

AND the tensioner… it’s placed same stupid way at Simplon and Bulls. Or is it only way to place it?
These bikes has low bb’s(i.e. vs Pole), that tensioner will have a hit with rock/tree at some point.

I love that idea with Pinion, but i think i will ride with my Levo(or new Levo) to the sunset. Maybe if Pole Sonni rebirths with Pinion i might change my mind.

The tensioner as far as I saw has a small bashguard behind it, although I fear that it's not up to the task of mtb abuse...on the other side It is sitting pretty far behind, close to the rear wheel, and the wheel being a 29er...I think it could survive...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Yes you have a point there, I was wondering why that is also, with it's 25,3 kg it's probably scratching the no go zone for some people.

As you said, the Mary's are not the lightest option. A lot of bikes come with relatively light tyres just to get the weight figure down.

Take another Mary bike with similar (10mm less fork) as an example from the same place :

 

[G-Sport]

Why would you want a mid power version? All you need is the smaller battery and don't use the motor in full mode to get the same weight as the majority saving is in the battery.

Coming from a Levo SL it would be a huge weight difference.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Its hard being at the start of new technology, especially as its taken off and far more development and investment going on.

20 years from now they'll be pointing at our bikes and sniggering up their sleeves 'Did they really ride on one of them things Dad ?'

 

[Suns_PSD]

I allways tought that in an emtb and on an ebike in gerenal a lot of energy is waisted in termal energy while braking downhill. Could the new Pinion motor be a first step for a future when our batteries could be recarged while going downhill, in a similat way as electric cars do? I understad this won't be easy to delevop in an eMTB given the way we brake hard but just think about the possibilities to have much smaller batteries and brakepads that last longer.

I love the idea of course, however most EV's have the generators or whatever at the wheel end and they add weight, complexity, and frankly a less than ideal 'brake' feel.

I think for a cargo bike application, this could be right around the corner. But for what we do, a decade or more away.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Its hard being at the start of new technology, especially as its taken off and far more development and investment going on.

20 years from now they'll be pointing at our bikes and sniggering up their sleeves 'Did they really ride on one of them things Dad ?'

20 years ago ..

 

[emtbeast]

As you said, the Mary's are not the lightest option. A lot of bikes come with relatively light tyres just to get the weight figure down.

Take another Mary bike with similar (10mm less fork) as an example from the same place :

View attachment 119020

Don't get me wrong, I have a 25kg+ emtb and I handle it just fine, I think heavy duty tires must become the norm for emtbs...

But on the other side, riding a 22,5 kg ebike from my buddy, at least for me, was not huge but pretty significant difference in ride feel.

I am interested if the excessive weight can be hidden as it's located in the center with the Pinion system

 

[Kimmoi]

Watched this and again; that tensioner. Sorry for repeating myself but in my opinion this is pretty big flaw.


Srceenshots, you just can't go in the woods with that?

 

[Zimmerframe]

that tensioner.

It does look like a huge weak point in the whole concept !

I know they need the tensioner to keep the belt tension consistent through the full travel and maintain good wrap around, but it appears like it was just adapted from something lying around the office.

At least that bike has the alternative "Uoiuid" cranks on it ..

 

[Kimmoi]

Rotwild is clearly made for the woods. But i want my belt!

ROTWILD R.X1000 Ultra

What does it stand for? It is the symbiosis of Pinion's innovative Motor-Gearbox-Unit (MGU), with a modern all-mountain geometry, and optimized weight distribution that makes the R.X1000 an all-mountain enthusiast's dream. That's what the "X" in the ROT…

www.rotwild.com

 

[Kimmoi]

This is from my Levo, i have new one now because that one in the picture cracked in the end.
Tensioner hanging there?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Definitely needs to be more like this

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Or how about:

I was chatting with Pinion about the motors and they mentioned with these belt designs / no cassette / derailiers, how free bike suspension designers will be with less constraints over traditional based chain systems.

 

[Kimmoi]

Or just?

 

[Lee Dove]

Coming from a Levo SL it would be a huge weight difference.

My point was not that you wanted a lighter bike. It was that the motor output makes little difference to the weight, it is the use of a smaller battery that is the bigger saving. In the case of the Pinion I doubt if they could save much motor weight by dropping the output as the main mass is from the gearbox.

There is of course the point that Gearbox EMTB's may not be suitable for the Lightweight crowd and you will just have to stay in the 1950's

 

[paske]

It happened 2 times now that I run out of battery and had to cycle back muscularly. And then I realize why I had 12 speed!
What will happen if you run out of juice with an electric gearbox like this?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

It happened 2 times now that I run out of battery and had to cycle back muscularly. And then I realize why I had 12 speed!
What will happen if you run out of juice with an electric gearbox like this?

1000 shifts still in the battery when not enough juice to power the motor.