M600 vs Brose 2.2

[Chickon1]

I just bit the bullet and bought the new levo alloy.. I have all the s-works grade components so why waste 10 grand for carbon fiber.

First off.. the build quality of the over all bike is night and day to the point you can literally feel the difference vs. my Chiner Carbon build.

The Motors:
M600 is pretty quick when you get it going. It states the torque is much higher than the brose but the bottom end torque of the brose 2.2 feels stronger. I can take off fairly fast in the higher gear with the brose vs the M600 falls off pretty quick when your cadence goes down but I think that is a tunable issue. ( I don't do this on purpose)

The pedal assist tuning is far superior with the brose 2.2 vs the M600.. It doesn't fell jerky or pully. You don't have the 1-2 sec of pulling after you stop peddling with the brose. This could probably we tweaked pretty easy on the M600 but they don't make easy. The Levo controller has BT and way more customization options.

Noise levels.. The brose 2.2 is pretty much dead quite. I can't hear it over the tire/chain noise. M600 wasn't too loud either with the nylon gear but you could hear it on the higher assist levels.

Speed Limit Mods: Brose has many more options for non-computer programmer types that actually function. I had the badass box on the M600 and it worked fine until you slowed down for a turn or just coming to a stop then trying to start pedaling again.. then it would throw a E21.

The biggest difference is pedaling with the motor off.. It's like there is no motor there at all with the brose. The M600 wasn't bad but you definitely knew it was there.

I still think the M600 with a Chiner frame is a great way to get into the sport at a reasonable cost. Once the tuning gets solid with the M600 to wear the average person can do it, it will be hard to beat.

 

[Waynemarlow]

The Motors:
M600 is pretty quick when you get it going. It states the torque is much higher than the brose but the bottom end torque of the brose 2.2 blows the M600 out of the water. I can take off fairly fast in the highest gear (11 tooth) with the brose vs the M600 falls off pretty quick when your cadence goes down.

Be a little careful in what you are describing, 0 rpm take off in a very low gear 11T will be simply electronically controlled as ramp up / cadence orientated by the manufacturer to protect internal gears and belts. At that rpm the motor is simply being controlled by firmware.

Best to pick a long steadily increasing incline hill where at mid cadence the motor is pulling max amps and unable to accelerate further.

We have such a hill on the way back from the pub and between an updated Brose 1.2, Bosch Gen 4 and my M600 ( running at 52 volts ) all unrestricted ( off road of course ) there is only one winner and by quite a large margin, the M600. The Brose and Bosch are surprisingly close. Do change riders as well between bikes as rider input can make all the difference.

Sadly Bafang seem unwilling to update their App and the way the individual rider interacts with their motor. Until that changes, what seems a real peach of an engine is always going to be second fiddle to both the Bosch and Brose in the rider user ability as we all seem to want slightly different things out of the motor.

 

[Chickon1]

Be a little careful in what you are describing, 0 rpm take off in a very low gear 11T will be simply electronically controlled as ramp up / cadence orientated by the manufacturer to protect internal gears and belts. At that rpm the motor is simply being controlled by firmware.

Best to pick a long steadily increasing incline hill where at mid cadence the motor is pulling max amps and unable to accelerate further.

We have such a hill on the way back from the pub and between an updated Brose 1.2, Bosch Gen 4 and my M600 ( running at 52 volts ) all unrestricted ( off road of course ) there is only one winner and by quite a large margin, the M600. The Brose and Bosch are surprisingly close. Do change riders as well between bikes as rider input can make all the difference.

Sadly Bafang seem unwilling to update their App and the way the individual rider interacts with their motor. Until that changes, what seems a real peach of an engine is always going to be second fiddle to both the Bosch and Brose in the rider user ability as we all seem to want slightly different things out of the motor.

I would agree that the biggest issue with bafang M600 is the lack a tuneability with ease. With electric motors, it's all about what the controller can do with the power. Bafang has a huge market on the builder side with their conversion kits but pretty much dropped the ball on the integrated mid drives. but it seems to be more of a legal issue than anything with these type of mid drives. Maybe one of you can explain the weirdness behind that. With the different classes and different country laws it seems that just went with the most restrictive ones. My 2.2 is limited at 20mph and the M600 at 16mph.. I can hit 16mph pretty quick on the M600.

What did you use to unrestrict the M600.? There are like 20 different things people say and they all contradict each other. I would love to mess with the settings but I didn't by mine from Luna either.


The brose 1.2 is half the power of the 2.2 so that makes kinda sense what you are seeing. I will say the M600 seems to have a bit more power on high RPM than the 2.2 not much but the M600 controller is horrible at the highest power level.

 

[Waynemarlow]

My 2.2 is limited at 20mph and the M600 at 16mph.. I can hit 16mph pretty quick on the M600.

16mph is the Euro spec and 20mph is the US Spec. If you look on this thread and you can change the speed limit relatively easily to your country limits or choose to ride off road exclusively.

Bafang M500/M600 Tuning & The BESST Tool

You can download the BESST Tool from there, you then need to contact them to obtain an ID/Password : https://bafang-e.com/en/oem-area/service/besst/ They can give you a basic password. But each ID/Password links to their system and has different abilities and can change different things.

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Chickon1]

16mph is the Euro spec and 20mph is the US Spec. If you look on this thread and you can change the speed limit relatively easily to your country limits or choose to ride off road exclusively.

Bafang M500/M600 Tuning & The BESST Tool

You can download the BESST Tool from there, you then need to contact them to obtain an ID/Password : https://bafang-e.com/en/oem-area/service/besst/ They can give you a basic password. But each ID/Password links to their system and has different abilities and can change different things.

www.emtbforums.com

I have read all that.. then someone says.. oo you can't change the speed limit. Now that I have another bike. I might take the time to actually read all this stuff and try it out.

 

[rtp]

I just bit the bullet and bought the new levo alloy.. I have all the s-works grade components so why waste 10 grand for carbon fiber.

First off.. the build quality of the over all bike is night and day to the point you can literally feel the difference vs. my Chiner Carbon build.

The Motors:
M600 is pretty quick when you get it going. It states the torque is much higher than the brose but the bottom end torque of the brose 2.2 blows the M600 out of the water. I can take off fairly fast in the highest gear (11 tooth) with the brose vs the M600 falls off pretty quick when your cadence goes down.

The pedal assist tuning is far superior with the brose 2.2 vs the M600.. It doesn't fell jerky or pully. You don't have the 1-2 sec of pulling after you stop peddling with the brose. This could probably we tweaked pretty easy on the M600 but they don't make easy. The Levo controller has BT and way more customization options.

Why would you possibly take off in the highest gear versus actually gearing correctly?
I'd expect either motor to heat up and likely impact longevity over time if gearing that far off, or am I misunderstanding?

Yeah, Bafang's lack of a working solid app or configuration tool for CANBUS motors like the M600 isn't doing them any favors.
I have a Luna v2 controller on my M600, and I expect sooner or later, either Bafang fixes the problem or the aftermarket will, although COVID/supply chain hasn't done anyone any favors.

Meanwhile, I believe Innotrace is getting ready to release their controller for the M600, while in the US sadly WattWagons has the exclusive - they can't even deliver bikes in a timely fashion and seem to no longer even list parts on their site, so hopefully Innotrace allows US consumer-direct in the future, or lets someone else in the US resell them. Not an issue for those in the EU, UK etc. though..

 

[Chickon1]

Why would you possibly take off in the highest gear versus actually gearing correctly?
I'd expect either motor to heat up and likely impact longevity over time if gearing that far off, or am I misunderstanding?

Yeah, Bafang's lack of a working solid app or configuration tool for CANBUS motors like the M600 isn't doing them any favors.
I have a Luna v2 controller on my M600, and I expect sooner or later, either Bafang fixes the problem or the aftermarket will, although COVID/supply chain hasn't done anyone any favors.

Meanwhile, I believe Innotrace is getting ready to release their controller for the M600, while in the US sadly WattWagons has the exclusive - they can't even deliver bikes in a timely fashion and seem to no longer even list parts on their site, so hopefully Innotrace allows US consumer-direct in the future, or lets someone else in the US resell them. Not an issue for those in the EU, UK etc. though..

I really don't take off in the highest gear on purpose.. just something I noticed when stopping quickly..

But after the ride yesterday in the trails. I can tell you the M600 has more power on the top end all day.. I think the 2.2 is around 75% of the M600 power when the brose is in turbo mode at full battery. You only really notice the brose when the torque is needed for slower cadence.

I rode in the normal setting on the brose for about 45 mins yesterday and I could feel it in my legs but not bad.. The M600 was like all I was doing was moving the pedals.

I think if you had the engineers at specialized tune the M600s.. nothing could even come close too it.

I'm also running @43V on the M600, so I would image 52V could be quite the difference.. 43V is pretty crappy when the battery gets below 50% or so.

 

[Waynemarlow]

The Brose is reported at 900W's and the M600 is well over 1000W's at 48 Volts ( more with 52 volts ) so yes your 75% is sort of looking in the ball park.

The only downside with the M600 is its weight, you need lots of copper windings to have lots of grunt and they weigh heavy. It should be interesting to compare the new M510 which is quite a tad lighter and probably in that 750W to 800 W bracket. That should be good enough for most other than the power hungry Americans who seem to think 2000W's should be the norm ( far better to simply go buy a proper E MX bike in my view ) and the balance between light batteries and the M510 should be a good combination.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I'm also running @43V on the M600, so I would image 52V could be quite the difference.. 43V is pretty crappy when the battery gets below 50% or so.

Think in power terms, Watts. V x A = Watts, Bafang drop the Amps down on the 48 volt units so that the total Watts is approximately the same as the 43 volt unit. Power felt by the rider would be very similar.

Not sure why Bafang insists on using 43 volt units anymore, most of those on the leading edge of development of these smaller mid motors are using 48 volts or higher to keep the amps and heat down ( smaller cables, higher rpm, less copper, less mass in the rotors, all means a lighter motor ). Mahle on the Specialized SL's are 48 volts and I had been expecting others to follow.

Seems not just yet.

 

[rtp]

I really don't take off in the highest gear on purpose.. just something I noticed when stopping quickly..

But after the ride yesterday in the trails. I can tell you the M600 has more power on the top end all day.. I think the 2.2 is around 75% of the M600 power when the brose is in turbo mode at full battery. You only really notice the brose when the torque is needed for slower cadence.

I rode in the normal setting on the brose for about 45 mins yesterday and I could feel it in my legs but not bad.. The M600 was like all I was doing was moving the pedals.

You can try setting the M600 display to 9 PAS levels - may give you a bit more granularity on power application to 'just right' depending on what you're looking for.

I think if you had the engineers at specialized tune the M600s.. nothing could even come close too it.

Yeah, sigh - I think id Bafang had engineers who actually ride - it would be nice as well

I'm also running @43V on the M600, so I would image 52V could be quite the difference.. 43V is pretty crappy when the battery gets below 50% or so.

Might be worth checking which firmware version you're running. Some of the earlier M600 firmware was utter trash, and it's at least gotten 'better' over time (although last update I saw is probably still 6+ months back) - unfortunately you'll need the BESST tool, or a CAN tool and some persistence. Search on ES (I don't think there's a thread here) or browse this repo - there are alternate firmware versions published there, but it helps if you know what you're doing and do some homework before diving into it.

GitHub - OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600

Contribute to OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600 development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

There are more 48v firmware versions but I think some posted 43v variants - possible one of them has different battery cutoff behavior, but worth finding the long thread where each version is being discussed (and deciding if even touching it at all is for you - basically need a CAN analysis tool + sending hex codes to the controller).

 

[vext]

IM600 is pretty quick when you get it going. It states the torque is much higher than the brose but the bottom end torque of the brose 2.2 feels stronger. I can take off fairly fast in the higher gear with the brose vs the M600 falls off pretty quick when your cadence goes down but I think that is a tunable issue. ( I don't do this on purpose)

My father has the brose and I ride the m600 - we climb side by side.

I'm as fast or faster than him in every condition but on the steep. When we match cadence (and gear) the M600 is producing no real power and i can't keep up with him. When I drop down into a lower gear to bring up may cadence to make more power I can do so but the the lower gearing saps more speed than the benefit of the greater watts it produces.

Others on the board have said that the M600 is faster on the steep but they are either running 52v or are comparing a "racing" scenario (or maybe they're adding throttle?) . I suppose it's possible in a race to carry a ton of momentum into the hill from the flat and maybe maintain the same cadence into a higher gear.

That is not really what I am comparing. Ultimately I feel that given a normal climbing speed, staring on the slope, at 48v, no throttle, the Brose in my side by side comparison is faster then the m600 on the steep because it casually makes much more torque while allowing a taller gear and a lower cadence. (for the record, as I've said in other parts of the forum. the rider on the Brose is my father, he's 80 and is recovering from open heart surgery. I'm half his age and fit.)

I hope the Bafang engineers are reading this and plan on allowing more torque at a lower cadence for future m600 firmware.

 

[Waynemarlow]

That is not really what I am comparing. Ultimately I feel that given a normal climbing speed, staring on the slope, at 48v, no throttle, the Brose in my side by side comparison is faster then the m600 on the steep because it casually makes much more torque while allowing a taller gear and a lower cadence. (for the record, as I've said in other parts of the forum. the rider on the Brose is my father, he's 80 and is recovering from open heart surgery. I'm half his age and fit.)

I hope the Bafang engineers are reading this and plan on allowing more torque at a lower cadence for future m600 firmware.

I think most Bafang engineers reading this would be considering your engine an outlier and not truly representative of the M600. Something is not right about your setup.

 

[vext]

I think most Bafang engineers reading this would be considering your engine an outlier and not truly representative of the M600. Something is not right about your setup.

Maybe. I'm beginning to agree with the OP when he said this:

M600 is pretty quick when you get it going. It states the torque is much higher than the brose but the bottom end torque of the brose 2.2 feels stronger. I can take off fairly fast in the higher gear with the brose vs the M600 falls off pretty quick when your cadence goes down but I think that is a tunable issue. ( I don't do this on purpose)

He's recognizing that while the m600 can outperform the Brose on the flat during acceleration the Brose has more torque overall. This is evident in a side by side climb.

Remember the only reason I started chasing issues with this motor is BECAUSE you and others said it SHOULD have more torque than the Brose. That does not mean it DOES. You for example are running a non-stock configuration at 52v which may well be the way to make the m600 outperform the Brose.

To be clear I have zero evidence of any broken element of my system except for an imbalance in the cell strings in the new pack which drops my voltage by .5 volt max.

A TL: DR of this post... I agree with the OP that the Brose generate more torque.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Interesting, yes totally acknowledge that the M600 lacks in bottom end torque. But if we take into account the early motors had problems stripping the main plastic gear ( the bit that makes it quiet ) then I’m quite happy the engineers backed off the early torque curve to gain reliability.

One could easily argue that if a user requires very low down torque because they can’t be bothered to understand that electric motored EMtbs with high low end torque are no substitute for correct gear use, then I would suggest the M600 is not for them. On the other hand those of us that like to spin much like our analogue bikes and acknowledge that choosing the correct gearing before moving off is the norm, then they may well like the M600.

One could also say that if Bafang updated the firmware to that of the M510 and allowed users to tune their motor to their requirements, then much of the witterings over many forums over many threads ( all with much the same return advice ) then the said forum traffic may well be much lighter.

 

[vext]

On the other hand those of us that like to spin much like our analogue bikes and acknowledge that choosing the correct gearing before moving off is the norm, then they may well like the M600.

To be clear the Brose is faster on a steep slope in ANY GEAR I choose to use. "Correct gearing" is not at issue because ALL gears are slower than the Brose.

I don't think you understand that the brose is making tons of torque in like 8th gear and the m600 stops making torque in 5th because it's not possible to pedal fast enough because of the slope.

Put differently five and lower make usable torque and are quick in general but are slow by comparison to the Levo .

Gears six and above make no power because you can't pedal fast enough because of the slope.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I don't think you understand that the brose is making tons of torque in like 8th gear and the m600 stops making torque in 5th because it's not possible to pedal fast enough because of the slope.

Sorry I’m at a bit of a loss here understanding your problem. Torque on the pedals is just that torque, regardless of what incline you are on. Is your problem a human problem in that you cannot maintain torque on the peddles at a moderate cadence over a period of time ?

Having ridden both the Brose and Bosch Gen4 motors, they do put a lot of power in at low cadences, enough that they almost make it feel you are not riding a bike, more motorbike. As much as I like that, I feel personally that it’s almost cheating in some ways.

Sorry but the M600 is not for you it would seem, time to sell it and put your money into buying a Brose.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Provided you have adequate gear range, torque is kinda irrelevant. Power is what does the work. Power is literally just torque multiplied by rpm. More power will always be faster.

I think perhaps the problem being experienced is that the rpm range where the power output of the motor is optimal, does not match well with the RPM range (cadence), where the power output of the rider is optimal.

This perhaps has more to do with the internal gearing ratio between the motor rotor and the chain ring. (Pedals) Than it is a motor problem.

Or it could be software limiting motor output at low motor rotor rpms. (For motor protection), and that just happens to conicide with this riders preffered cadence rate.

 

[vext]

Sorry I’m at a bit of a loss here understanding your problem. Torque on the pedals is just that torque, regardless of what incline you are on. Is your problem a human problem in that you cannot maintain torque on the peddles at a moderate cadence over a period of time ?

Having ridden both the Brose and Bosch Gen4 motors, they do put a lot of power in at low cadences, enough that they almost make it feel you are not riding a bike, more motorbike. As much as I like that, I feel personally that it’s almost cheating in some ways.

Sorry but the M600 is not for you it would seem, time to sell it and put your money into buying a Brose.

I think it's evident you think I'm complaining about power output. I'd hoped to frame this a as a COMPERABLE SPEED problem on SPEEP SLOPES.

The M600 makes a lot of power. That's not the problem.

The M600 makes a lot of speed. That's not the problem.

Only point of the complaint --> The M600 makes LESS SPEED than the Brose on STEEP CLIMBS.

Put very simply - the Brose makes tons of power in say 9th gear and does so by requiring less torque and a slower cadence. And the m600 does not make any in 9th gear because the rider can't achieve a cadence in 9th gear to get power out of the motor because of the steep slope. Lowering gears DOES make the motor put out a TON of power but because the gearing is lower and the cadence is very fast the bike simply moves slower.

Why am I taking time to hammer this point? Two reasons:

1) In the hopes that the Bafang engineers read this thread, understand, and fix it by releasing a firmware that provides more power at lower cadences for steep climbs.

2) Power in the climbs is the primary reason of existence for an eMTB IMHO so for the m600 to be considered "top dog" it needs to perform like the "top dog" in the "steep" category at the very least.

I can buy any bike I want to but I chose Bafang because like many of you, I liked the "open source" (i know only kinda) DIY nature of the build.

Tomorrow morning I'm going on a ride side by side with the Levo and I hope to try to capture a vid of what I see. I added a throttle to my bike and reverted to 64.7 from 64.9 so we'll see if the firmware has an impact and/if I juice the throttle during the climb I can overcome the cadence limitations and beat his 80 year-old ass up the climb.

Also if anyone knows the username of a bafang engineer or rep post it please to this thread.

 

[vext]

Tomorrow morning I'm going on a ride side by side with the Levo and I hope to try to capture a vid of what I see.

The ride did occur this morning but the video did not because I have no mount and trying to climb and film is too hard !

First - 64.7 and 64.9 seem very similar - but there are better firmware testers on the board and I'll defer to them.

But I can shed some light on some interesting findings about the two motors side by side.


The good news:

The m600 can more easily stay with the Brose in the steep sections when you add maximum THROTTLE while pedaling in a tall gear. I had built my bike as more a "pure" eMTB and chose to not build with a throttle. I only added the throttle for this ride. In essence the throttle somewhat overcomes the fast-cadence requirement for torque from the m600.

The bad news:

While the throttle did start off dumping up to or over 750w (my gauge is limited visually to 750) into the motor in the steep... The wattage became inconsistent and seemed later in the climb to limit to about 650w. My guess is that the 650w limit is due to an overheating condition??? Can anyone else confirm this?

Things to look out for in this condition:

With 650w to over 750w going into the motor on a steep section you still need to pedal of course and the rider's instinct may be to search for the right tall gear to best "help out". This is different from the "normal" m600 behavior of slower speed with a higher cadence in a low gear. Now you'll find yourself in a higher gear with a higher speed, a lower cadence, and help from the throttle, and this becomes prime chain snapping territory during these high-torque shits for the un-initiated.

Other things to note:

The battery drain is more significant. I can't quantify it easily but I'd safely say the steep sections used 50-100% more power. The overall effect is not all that bad because the beauty of the throttle is that YOU control how much you use and in my case it was limited to just the most steep sections.

Personally I'd like to have a bike that can stay with the Brose without throttle. I'm beginning to think Bafang cares more about range at the cost of climbing speed.

Has anyone hacked the throttle and used some different input to the throttle signal?