Lighter Riders / Heavier Bikes - Handling Struggles?

[Bndit]

Wrong bike, wrong math. Her's was a 2019 Turbo Levo, which stock had a 66d head angle with 29" & 150mm F&R. Going 27.5" F&R dropped both ends equally, we added 30mm to the fork length which knocked 1.5d off the head angle. BB landed at 13.25". And she is 174cm tall, on a M frame.

I think you have just gone beyond the geometry what Specialized designed the Levo to work....I had the Gen 2 Levo also and I'm not heavy either. I had problems with front end traction and I lowered the stem 10mm and problem was solved...
Levo has quite high stack (or not low )so if you have even higher stack with 170mm fork, maybe it's just too high?

 

[Emailsucks98]

Also, What front tire pressure is she running? An over inflated tire for her weight might not help either.

Yeah, we check pressures before most every ride, 20psi typically (assegai Exo+)

I think you have just gone beyond the geometry what Specialized designed the Levo to work....I had the Gen 2 Levo also and I'm not heavy either. I had problems with front end traction and I lowered the stem 10mm and problem was solved...
Levo has quite high stack (or not low )so if you have even higher stack with 170mm fork, maybe it's just too high?

For sure- and the stock geometry was horrible for trails we ride!

As said before, I'm not looking to at the geometry for many reasons. One is that, she and I are within an inch height-wise, so we do trade bikes. She likes how my bikes ride, so I set hers up similarly other than suspension since I've got 40lbs on her. I find her bike rides great other than being undersprung for me. Over the years I have wrenched, worked for a custom frame builder & designed a few of my own bikes so I'm familiar with bike geometry.

I think you are right though, she's not getting enough weight over the front. I don't want to lower her bars though, since we ride a lot of steep DH. She's running 20mm rise bars, 35mm stem and 1cm of headset spacers, nothing wild.

 

[Ark]

At 65kg will have neither the body weight nor the muscle tissue to manhandle a 26kg bike. Needs a 20kg (or less) bike.

no one is manhandling 25kg on a 25kg bike though.
the bars don't need 25kg of force to move them, it doesn't take 25kg of force to get the bike straight again if you lean to the side.
It's probably just technique being poor

 

[Plummet]

Sometimes I use a TON of front brake to pull a stoppie and pop the rear wheel around (or a ton of rear brake to slide the rear around - but don't tell anyone). Squaring off a turn that way can be the best option at times.

You wouldn't do that on the off camber sweeping dh corner the op describes. Tight switchbacks yes. Offcambsr sweepers... no.

 

[Plummet]

Yeah, we check pressures before most every ride, 20psi typically (assegai Exo+)

Try a couple less. 17,18psi.
Unless you are hyper pointy you should get away with it.

I am 76kg and run 19psi on the front assgay exo+

Side note. If the wheels as you say a trash. How's the spoke tension in the front? Maybe she's getting a little flex and twang in the corners.

 

[irie]

no one is manhandling 25kg on a 25kg bike though.
the bars don't need 25kg of force to move them, it doesn't take 25kg of force to get the bike straight again if you lean to the side.
It's probably just technique being poor

A lighter bike (with shorter wheelbase) will be easier and less intimidating for a 65kg female to manoeuvre.

 

[George_KSL]

I think multiple things can be true at same time here:

1) She looks like strong rider based on that photo, that is already more than majority of people ride.
2) The Frankenstein bike probably doesn't help much even if it looks "corrected" on paper.
3) 25kg Full-fat wasn't easy to man-handle by me at 90kg, I am always surprised by everyone saying they're just fine. Absolutely never felt fine to me, felt like massive fun, absolutely, but definitely like the bike riding me and not the opposite. And I saw the massive joy and skill improvement when my similar 65kg wife swapped from Turbo Levo to LevoSL (full 29" to this day, but will be mulleted). I made sure her LevoSL was under 18kg while still having full-enduro build, donating all my prized possessions like carbon wheels and light-weight 11-speed XTR-set :- ).

My very personal opinion: Don't try lowering bar. Yes it can in theory put more weight on front, but only for people who will not counter by pulling even more towards back as reaction. Which imho majority of riders will subconsciously.
Are you absolutely sure the back can't be at fault? You can but Maxxgrip Assegai at rear as well, absolutely no drawback on full-fat. For short rider, even with 27.5" wheel, that bike has long rear-end, making it awkward at flat dusty trails.
Only time I ever crash, is on dusty flow-trails in corners as well :- ) They're easy to over-shoot, but it's always the rear-end that I lose. Maybe it just looks (once on ground in pain..) the front was issue? Just food for thought.

 

[irie]

...
I made sure her LevoSL was under 18kg while still having full-enduro build, donating all my prized possessions like carbon wheels and light-weight 11-speed XTR-set :- ).
...

 

[RickBullotta]

You wouldn't do that on the off camber sweeping dh corner the op describes. Tight switchbacks yes. Offcambsr sweepers... no.

That's for sure! You only make that mistake...once!

 

[RustyIron]

easier and less intimidating for a 65kg female

Because lady riders are unskilled and easily intimidated?

 

[irie]

Because lady riders are unskilled and easily intimidated?

It's physiological. Would you like me to spell out human male vs female physiological differences in detail?

 

[Dax]

Sounds like either the geometry of this thing is all screwed, or it’s technique. Hard to call it without trying the bike and seeing her ride.

I know a lighter female who wasn’t a fan of her 29er Levo, preferred her mullet stumpy, but it was geometry not weight that was the issue. I also know a couple of 67-70kg dudes who happily ride 25kg e-bikes down pretty much anything - although I’m sure the brewing gender argument above will explain why that’s totally different

Suspect this could be fixed with stem length/stack height, maybe mulleting.

 

[Nobrks]

My boy is, 37kg, ridin Small Levo SL 18kg 27,5.
He was a bit too groundet to start with.
one major issue was to re-valve rear shock, as it ate all input, now he's flying, only one crash in two seasons.

 

[venturavin]

Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on it, but my $0.02 is that there's no way the weight of the bike is the culprit. If anything, one of the handling benefits of heavy ebikes is their traction. That said, if she is in her head about the weight of the bike then that will be a big hurdle to get over. Mental issues are more real and more difficult to fix than physical issues, hence why pros have coaches.

Weirdly I just posted this on PB on a similar thread... but an old 90s moto video I used to watch as a kid said that when you're in "attack" position you should be leaning so far forward you can read your front number plate. No number plate on my mtb, but I still find this tidbit helpful to think of in my head when I'm approaching off camber corners. Basically that and "use your hips!" are the two things running through my head in a tough corner. Looks like she rips already so maybe this is all a big mansplanation, but maybe a helpful thought.

 

[arTNC]

Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on it, but my $0.02 is that there's no way the weight of the bike is the culprit. If anything, one of the handling benefits of heavy ebikes is their traction. That said, if she is in her head about the weight of the bike then that will be a big hurdle to get over. Mental issues are more real and more difficult to fix than physical issues, hence why pros have coaches.

Weirdly I just posted this on PB on a similar thread... but an old 90s moto video I used to watch as a kid said that when you're in "attack" position you should be leaning so far forward you can read your front number plate. No number plate on my mtb, but I still find this tidbit helpful to think of in my head when I'm approaching off camber corners. Basically that and "use your hips!" are the two things running through my head in a tough corner. Looks like she rips already so maybe this is all a big mansplanation, but maybe a helpful thought.

Your comment about the moto video is basically what I was talking about in my post above. Body positioning on any 2-wheeled vehicle plays a huge part in handling. I can't remember the guy's name who was one of the most famous dirt motor coaches. He preached that "elbows high and out" technique when hands were on the handlebar. Obviously that keeps you closer to the front of the bike just like the "looking at the number plate" suggestion.

I'm also with you on the weight of the bike being a bigger benefit than hinderance on EMTB's. Stability.

 

[Julz]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

Caveat - I’ve not read the full thread but thought I’d throw in some comments.
I’m a 63kg female rider, also have a turbo levo. I ride it once a week on average as I’m still riding analog bikes most of the time. For the first year or so, I kept crashing it. Thought it was the weight too. However, I had a ride in my OHs bike which is set up a bit firmer and it was great so lead me to experiment with a lot more psi in the fork (running a coil in rear). I’m lyriks on the front and I’m running 10psi more than the trailhead app recommends. I ride fairly steep stuff (tweed valley in Scotland) and it’s made a massive difference. Bike sits in its mid travel a lot more rather than diving.
when you’re running these forks with lower pressures it’s a lot harder to get the right balance so you may need to experiment with a few things. This certainly helped me keep over the front end (which I have no issues with on my SC nomad ) but I kept creeping back from the front when the fork was too soft.
worth a try.

 

[Emailsucks98]

if she is in her head about the weight of the bike then that will be a big hurdle to get over. Mental issues are more real and more difficult to fix than physical issues, hence why pros have coaches.

when you're in "attack" position you should be leaning so far forward you can read your front number plate.…. that and "use your hips!" are the two things running through my head in a tough corner. Looks like she rips already so maybe this is all a big mansplanation, but maybe a helpful thought.

Yeah, this is my thinking exactly. I ride a chromag every winter, because it reminds me to “ride the fork, let the back-end follow“. Steering with the hips goes with that, but I think the weight is discouraging/distracting her. And on the chromag I run the fork very firm.
And yes, it’s helpful- many are missing the detail that she’s been riding blacks/dbl-blacks weekly for many years now- a lot of it on this bike. But changing technique is a tricky mental game.

 

[Julie]

I feel her pain ! I am 64 inches and 53 kg and just can’t get comfortable/confident on my very nice size small Orbea Rise, maybe 40 lbs. And I crash more, and harder, than I ever did on my regular bikes. I think it is a combination of bike size (bigger than my XS Pivot), bike weight (I have to go faster in most situations to keep the gyroscopic forces opposing the weight of the bike from falling over), dislike of 29er due to front end and overall height and butt buzz, and difficulty putting a foot down while on the saddle in sketchy situations. My first ebike was a Specialized Turbo Levo and I thought it was going to kill me. The weight and speed increased the slam factor exponentially.
I spent years fine tuning the fit and function of my pedal bikes so I know what works for me.
Sadly, I am aging out of mountain biking anyway due to vision issues, so I am not motivated to spend lots of money to morph the ebike into something that works better for me.
When I recover from my latest concussion, shoulder injury and bruises from my last big crash, I plan to hang up the ebike from mountain biking and just stick to gravel and fireroads on it.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Caveat - I’ve not read the full thread but thought I’d throw in some comments.
I’m a 63kg female rider, also have a turbo levo. I ride it once a week on average as I’m still riding analog bikes most of the time. For the first year or so, I kept crashing it. Thought it was the weight too. However, I had a ride in my OHs bike which is set up a bit firmer and it was great so lead me to experiment with a lot more psi in the fork (running a coil in rear). I’m lyriks on the front and I’m running 10psi more than the trailhead app recommends. I ride fairly steep stuff (tweed valley in Scotland) and it’s made a massive difference. Bike sits in its mid travel a lot more rather than diving.
when you’re running these forks with lower pressures it’s a lot harder to get the right balance so you may need to experiment with a few things. This certainly helped me keep over the front end (which I have no issues with on my SC nomad ) but I kept creeping back from the front when the fork was too soft.
worth a try.

That’s super helpful! And oddly she often says she likes how my bikes feel (set up similar but for a +40lbs heavier rider)- yet she never gets anywhere near full travel up front on her bike- possibly because she’s riding rearward, which has lead to the fork being set up soft.

May I ask if your fork settings translate to 30% sag? Or much less/firmer? I think we’ll try the combo of firming the fork up and filming her in corners. She’s off the bike for another week or two after the last crash.

 

[Binhill1]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

I'm no lightweight and I would say if my Levo starts to go it goes . Definitely not so forgiving as a ordinary mtb. Seat down a bit on anything technical helps as well I notice.

 

[irie]

That’s super helpful! And oddly she often says she likes how my bikes feel (set up similar but for a +40lbs heavier rider)- yet she never gets anywhere near full travel up front on her bike- possibly because she’s riding rearward, which has lead to the fork being set up soft.

May I ask if your fork settings translate to 30% sag? Or much less/firmer? I think we’ll try the combo of firming the fork up and filming her in corners. She’s off the bike for another week or two after the last crash.

There's no need to have fork psi which gives full travel and recommended front and rear sag and all that jazz., she just needs to have a bike that works the way she likes in the conditions she rides in. Bluntly, whatever works is right.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Bluntly, whatever works is right.

That’s not a recipe for success on the trails we ride. No thanks!

 

[Kevlasultanpus]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

when i started emtb I had a few offs in the corners as I was powering into them harder than i should have, that is, with the motor power I was going in faster than i was used to on my acoustic. Took a few rides to get the balance of power / turning / weight distribution / balance to come together. my 10 cents worth!

 

[irie]

@Emailsucks98 Good points there. Perhaps try turning the motor off and see if she has the same problem?

Has this been tried?

 

[Frankie_r]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

I’m a 67kg male and when I moved from a non-electric enduro 27,5” bike to a 29” light ebike I’ve definitively become slower in turns.

I think that, if she’s fit enough, she should consider a light ebike (and maybe some specific gym workout + working on her technique).

 

[Emailsucks98]

Has this been tried?

She’s off the bike for another 2 weeks with a bruised psoas muscle from that last crash. Previous crash in the same corner scraped her chin up.

 

[Ark]

A lighter bike (with shorter wheelbase) will be easier and less intimidating for a 65kg female to manoeuvre.

Thats because the wheelbase is shorter, not because the bike is lighter.

on a full 29er it seems like 180 degree tight turns when you turn the bars so far, the bike really wants to try and fight going froward and would rather push the rider off.
easier to just lock up and slide the back end a bit

 

[irie]

Thats because the wheelbase is shorter, not because the bike is lighter.

on a full 29er it seems like 180 degree tight turns when you turn the bars so far, the bike really wants to try and fight going froward and would rather push the rider off.
easier to just lock up and slide the back end a bit

It's both - a lighter bike can also change direction faster.

 

[arTNC]

Funny thing on the 29'er aspect of this discussion. Though I'm a long time MTB'er, I only recently made the jump to a 29'er....Trek Rail 7. At the bike shop we experimented with 29/26 and 27.5/26 combos, but I never owned a full 29'er. On the turning capability of a full 29'er, this was probably one of the biggest surprises to me. Maybe because I come from a dirt motorcycle background, but even compared to my 26'ers, I don't find the 29'er to be the trying-to-herd-elephants handling that I expected or hear about.

These big hit, long suspension 29'ers have huge tires with lots of traction. Their ability to be thrown into a corner and leaned over at will is tremendously increased. The "leaned over" part is the element I'm especially focused on. And hey...I'm not trying to defy physics, bike geometry, etc., but "leaning over" is how you partially steer a dirt motor through a corner...and of course counter steering, body placement, etc. The same applies to the emtb IMO, and I kind of think that maybe quite a few mtb/emtb riders are cautious about aggressively leaning their bikes. I'm not saying to diss' a lot of bicycle riders.

Dirt motors are bigger, heavier, and faster overall, so you really have to build confidence and technique for aggressive cornering. I am not claiming that dirt motors and emtb's are exact clones in the handling department or the applied techniques, but they have way more in common than not. I still contend that the OP's lady is more likely having issue with technique due to the more aggressive nature of an emtb than she had/has with her pedal-only bike. And not saying any of that in a disrespectful manner. We can all have more to learn about improving our riding skills when things change.

 

[irie]

Funny thing on the 29'er aspect of this discussion. Though I'm a long time MTB'er, I only recently made the jump to a 29'er....Trek Rail 7. At the bike shop we experimented with 29/26 and 27.5/26 combos, but I never owned a full 29'er. On the turning capability of a full 29'er, this was probably one of the biggest surprises to me. Maybe because I come from a dirt motorcycle background, but even compared to my 26'ers, I don't find the 29'er to be the trying-to-herd-elephants handling that I expected or hear about.

These big hit, long suspension 29'ers have huge tires with lots of traction. Their ability to be thrown into a corner and leaned over at will is tremendously increased. The "leaned over" part is the element I'm especially focused on. And hey...I'm not trying to defy physics, bike geometry, etc., but "leaning over" is how you partially steer a dirt motor through a corner...and of course counter steering, body placement, etc. The same applies to the emtb IMO, and I kind of think that maybe quite a few mtb/emtb riders are cautious about aggressively leaning their bikes. I'm not saying to diss' a lot of bicycle riders.

Dirt motors are bigger, heavier, and faster overall, so you really have to build confidence and technique for aggressive cornering. I am not claiming that dirt motors and emtb's are exact clones in the handling department or the applied techniques, but they have way more in common than not. I still contend that the OP's lady is more likely having issue with technique due to the more aggressive nature of an emtb than she had/has with her pedal-only bike. And not saying any of that in a disrespectful manner. We can all have more to learn about improving our riding skills when things change.

Having road raced motorcycles for 10 years AFAIK "counter steering" ojly starts to comes into affect at ~10mph+. Is the Laydee in question approaching corners at 10mph+? I doubt it. In any case, countersteering is not something you think about, it just happens.
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