Interesting reading - DVSA prosecutes UK company illegally supplying unrestricted e-(motor)bikes
- Thread starter Rusty
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Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
- Thread starter
- #2
I have several friends with Sur-Rons etc, but they ride them on MX tracks or private land and not mountainbike trails so not an issue. I have however come across many an ebike with thumb throttle out on the trails and when they are Cheebs with 'Ludicrous Mode' they are a very real problem.
pampmyride
Active member
“This is a landmark case. High-powered electric bikes that have not had their design and construction properly approved pose a danger to their riders " This is a type approval case.
Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
- Thread starter
- #5
Personally, I completely disagree with the 25kph limit - with that I would not even bother with an ebike & I am a fat 63 year old. On my singlespeed I was averaging 29 - 34kph commuting and while a lot slower average on the trails my max was better than 32kph often. I think limiting power is far more important than limiting speeds for many. If a speed limit was warranted I think 30mph would be a lot closer to the mark.
Saying that, I agree with the local bike hires that limit to 25kph rather than 32 as many of the people that hire are pretty much clueless.
Saying that, I agree with the local bike hires that limit to 25kph rather than 32 as many of the people that hire are pretty much clueless.
At 50 km/h you're no longer on a 'bike' though. A bike is suitable for anyone to ride, can use bike paths, be ridden without a license or insurance.
A bike that can do 50 km/h average on the flat is essentially a moped. You can do a lot more damage to anyone you hit, will have a massive speed differential to most cyclists on shared paths. It probably does justify regulation.
I think the point everyone agrees on (
) is that a limit to 25 km/h means that it's 'just a bike'. The debate is whether that's good or bad?[Post edited as I had got my units mixed up]
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Pezzar
Active member
Personally I'm glad - these electric moto cross type things - Surons- on mtb trails are not only annoying but a danger to everyone. Private land no issue.
I feel the 25kph limit is perfect off road, as it helps me when struggling on some rough steep uphill sections or when I'm starting to feel tired after a long day out in the hills. But I also get the satisfaction of riding local trials under my own steam as I pick up speed.
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I think its ok to have a speed limit, but it should be only one, valid worldwide, because its a nonsense all the fuss about changing regions and it looks like we’re back to videocassete era.
32km/h is the way to go, and european bike manufacturers should embrace it.
PS: arguments about safety and trail protection: please forward to motorcycle and automotive industry.
32km/h is the way to go, and european bike manufacturers should embrace it.
PS: arguments about safety and trail protection: please forward to motorcycle and automotive industry.
What on earth are you talking about?
I reach speeds in excess of 65km/h every single ride on my normal (non motorised) roadbike.
What in your opinion am I on when doing so if not a "bike"?
You exceed 65 km/h on downhills or when in a sprint. So do I. So do most people. You don't do that on a bike path through town though do you? Or along a canal. Because you can't, because you can't produce that much power, certainly not in a sustained manner.
A bike that lets you do 50 km/h or more on the flat, consistently, is a moped. If you connect with anything, that's 400% the kinetic energy of a 25 km/h impact, and that starts to have more serious potential to injure others or damage things.
A bike that lets you do 50 km/h or more on the flat, consistently, is a moped. If you connect with anything, that's 400% the kinetic energy of a 25 km/h impact, and that starts to have more serious potential to injure others or damage things.
I agree with this, but it's not the manufacturers fault, it's regional law. If they wanted one international limit then they'd have to chose the lowest common demoninator and go with 25 km/h. I can't see our US and Kiwi friends liking that!
I did see somewhere that the EU are considering 32 km/h, but I can't find it again so can't substantiate that.
I saw this and actually sent a question to the DVSA, asking on what basis the case was laid. Given that non legal ebikes are perfectly acceptable on private land with the land owners permission, I cant see how the supply of them is deemed 'illegal'. The only thing I can think of is that the seller was advertising them as road legal, but I didnt see that anywhere in the report I read.
I havent had a reply from the DVSA yet.
I havent had a reply from the DVSA yet.
50km/h is only 31mph.
So. Yes. I can sprint to 31mph on the flat on a normal roadbike pretty much any time I like. Including through town or on a canal path if I deem it appropriate.
Why would it have to be "sustained" if you're worrying about impact speed? A 50km/h impact is still a 50km/h impact no matter how little time a vehicle has been travelling at 50km/h previous to a 50km/h impact.
You don't seem to have a grasp of what the word "moped" actually means. Please do us all a favour and look it up so you can stop using it incorrectly.
And if anyone was worried about measuring increased kinetic energy forces don't you think there would be weight (mass) limit legislation for cyclists?
I'm just being honest mate.
If you find that abrasive you need to toughen up a little.
By dodging my questions am I to assume you have no reply?
If you find that abrasive you need to toughen up a little.
By dodging my questions am I to assume you have no reply?
Nah, you're not just being honest, but I've no interest in an argument.
I think it's obvious that a bicycle that would let my Mum easily sustain 30 mph for long periods is distinct from ebikes as we know them now. You can argue whether 'moped' is the right term, but heavier motorised two wheel vehicles that can sustain that sort of speed currently require at least basic training, insurance, and an appropriate helmet. Society judges the potential harm to the user and general public and legislates accordingly.
The beauty of the 25 kmh limit is that it makes it easy to justify that none of that is necessary.
Would I welcome a higher limit, even if it came with conditions? Hell yes, I've got a full motorbike license and I've got insurance. Bring it on. But arguing that a 30 mph is no different to 15.5 mph limit is disingenuous.
I'm happy to let you have the last word on this.
I think it's obvious that a bicycle that would let my Mum easily sustain 30 mph for long periods is distinct from ebikes as we know them now. You can argue whether 'moped' is the right term, but heavier motorised two wheel vehicles that can sustain that sort of speed currently require at least basic training, insurance, and an appropriate helmet. Society judges the potential harm to the user and general public and legislates accordingly.
The beauty of the 25 kmh limit is that it makes it easy to justify that none of that is necessary.
Would I welcome a higher limit, even if it came with conditions? Hell yes, I've got a full motorbike license and I've got insurance. Bring it on. But arguing that a 30 mph is no different to 15.5 mph limit is disingenuous.
I'm happy to let you have the last word on this.
LeftItLancs
Member
“Falcon” branded EAPCs fitted with motors powered up to 8000 watts and capable of speeds over 70mph without having type approval in place to ensure that the design and construction is suitable for riding at such speeds.”
It is 100% right to prosecute this company. What sort of lunatics would sell e-bikes that have not only not been design tested as fit for purpose but also reach speeds of 70 MPH +. Unrestricted e-bikes are replacing mopeds as the vehicle of choice for muggers throughout London. They blend in more and they make far less noise. In my local area, teenagers (not wearing helmets) are creating havoc on these kinds of e-bikes on footpaths and the tracks dog walkers use, etc. The clampdown was a long time coming because technology usually outpaces legislation and which is why current laws are being abused.
These bikes are far worse than mopeds for the simple fact they are being used off-road in areas pedestrians use and are not insured. A bike traveling at those kinds of speeds is not going to stop anytime soon in the event of an emergency. Not only is it dangerous for the kids who ride them but also for anyone else who is unfortunate enough to get in their way. They have no experience, do not wear any safety gear, are uninsured, and do not care what anyone else thinks or doesn't think.
It is 100% right to prosecute this company. What sort of lunatics would sell e-bikes that have not only not been design tested as fit for purpose but also reach speeds of 70 MPH +. Unrestricted e-bikes are replacing mopeds as the vehicle of choice for muggers throughout London. They blend in more and they make far less noise. In my local area, teenagers (not wearing helmets) are creating havoc on these kinds of e-bikes on footpaths and the tracks dog walkers use, etc. The clampdown was a long time coming because technology usually outpaces legislation and which is why current laws are being abused.
These bikes are far worse than mopeds for the simple fact they are being used off-road in areas pedestrians use and are not insured. A bike traveling at those kinds of speeds is not going to stop anytime soon in the event of an emergency. Not only is it dangerous for the kids who ride them but also for anyone else who is unfortunate enough to get in their way. They have no experience, do not wear any safety gear, are uninsured, and do not care what anyone else thinks or doesn't think.
LeftItLancs
Member
What sort of fanboy post is this?
How old are you for christ's sake?
No doubt young enough that you still happily tolerate being spoken to as if you are 15 years old.
Slapbassmunky
Active member
While it's unbelievably frustrating that bikes are speed limited, I can understand the argument, the second e-bikes become anything other than a 'bicycle' we're screwed.
The issue is for every accomplished rider, such as us on forums, there's someone who hasn't ridden a bike since 1989 and wants an alternative wobbly way to beat the traffic to work. They have no interest in riding technique, let alone wearing a lid.
Case in point. My mum.
Before she retired she used to work for a local care agency. Her clients were within a 3 mile radius of home, perfect territory for an e-bike. She duly picked up a cube stepthrough and a speedbox. At 7 stone it was nothing for a performance line CX to propel her along at 25mph nearly constantly. She only ever rode in 'the gear at the bottom' in turbo, because she had times to keep to. Along roads, bridleways and cycle tracks. Wearing a lid didn't happen no matter how much I told her off. An accident waiting to happen.
This is the issue. For every decent rider there's 5 who don't know if the left or right lever operates the front brake.
Willy waving about who's got the biggest road bike balls is irrelevant. You're a skilled rider, and doing 30mph is nothing, rightly so. In the same way one of my motorbikes only starts to wake up at 100mph. The last time I checked, in the UK you need a CBT taken every two years or a full car license to ride a gutless 50cc scooter with a 28mph speed restriction, so the likelihood of 'bicycles' being allowed to go faster than they currently are without some sort of rider training or added legislation is never going to happen.
In the general e-bike ignorant public's view, a prat on a Suron nailing it flat out around town and forest is on an e-bike, the same as my Rail, they are exactly the same thing aren't they?! These are the bigoted people that have the time and gumption to pen angry letters to councillors and get all of us hit with a very big government based stick.
Bosch have become obsessed with doing the 'right' thing, after they got found out helping VW through their little emission thing. So it stands to reason they back the limit, and their anti tamper software will get increasingly harder to circumvent....
The issue is for every accomplished rider, such as us on forums, there's someone who hasn't ridden a bike since 1989 and wants an alternative wobbly way to beat the traffic to work. They have no interest in riding technique, let alone wearing a lid.
Case in point. My mum.
Before she retired she used to work for a local care agency. Her clients were within a 3 mile radius of home, perfect territory for an e-bike. She duly picked up a cube stepthrough and a speedbox. At 7 stone it was nothing for a performance line CX to propel her along at 25mph nearly constantly. She only ever rode in 'the gear at the bottom' in turbo, because she had times to keep to. Along roads, bridleways and cycle tracks. Wearing a lid didn't happen no matter how much I told her off. An accident waiting to happen.
This is the issue. For every decent rider there's 5 who don't know if the left or right lever operates the front brake.
Willy waving about who's got the biggest road bike balls is irrelevant. You're a skilled rider, and doing 30mph is nothing, rightly so. In the same way one of my motorbikes only starts to wake up at 100mph. The last time I checked, in the UK you need a CBT taken every two years or a full car license to ride a gutless 50cc scooter with a 28mph speed restriction, so the likelihood of 'bicycles' being allowed to go faster than they currently are without some sort of rider training or added legislation is never going to happen.
In the general e-bike ignorant public's view, a prat on a Suron nailing it flat out around town and forest is on an e-bike, the same as my Rail, they are exactly the same thing aren't they?! These are the bigoted people that have the time and gumption to pen angry letters to councillors and get all of us hit with a very big government based stick.
Bosch have become obsessed with doing the 'right' thing, after they got found out helping VW through their little emission thing. So it stands to reason they back the limit, and their anti tamper software will get increasingly harder to circumvent....
Tribey
Active member
I'm surprised it's taken this long. The nearest Suron dealer to me has a video on their website of riding 'there' local demonstration track, which are in fact footpaths across the public common.
that is precisely why I will never buy bosh again.
after 4 times of error 504, I now seem to have settled to a maximum speed limit of 32 kph the bloody software is happy with...
by the way, although the CX performance line gives a very nice power boost for the first few seconds you ask for (i.e. at a traffic light), it soon gets into a cruise mode where you need to push a lot harder (e.g. compared to shimano e-step) to get something out of it. I guess these software developers must feel very proud of themselves.
another reason to stay away from it.
after 4 times of error 504, I now seem to have settled to a maximum speed limit of 32 kph the bloody software is happy with...
by the way, although the CX performance line gives a very nice power boost for the first few seconds you ask for (i.e. at a traffic light), it soon gets into a cruise mode where you need to push a lot harder (e.g. compared to shimano e-step) to get something out of it. I guess these software developers must feel very proud of themselves.
another reason to stay away from it.
Tribey
Active member
Isn't it European law that says Bosch must limit the speed of their products, and they must by Law actively work to prevent anti-tamper devices.
whatever... I just saying I will never buy bosh again. Stick with shimano who are not so fussy.
Slapbassmunky
Active member
See that's the thing. I've known so many people have issues with shimano that I actively avoided them when choosing my last bike
if you leave Bosch stuff alone it appears to be the most reliable by a long shot. At least out of me and my riding buddies.well, I have both a bosh CX performance line and a shimano estep, so I can directly compare. bosh is only better on the initial power burst, for anything else shimano is a more pleasant ride, there is no software interference (or if there is you do not notice it) .... and I can do 50 km/h with shimano when I need to, which is a big big plus.See that's the thing. I've known so many people have issues with shimano that I actively avoided them when choosing my last bike
Rusty
E*POWAH BOSS
- Thread starter
- #29
Had an E8000 powered bike, a Brose powered Levo and now a couple Bosch powered bikes. While the Shimano was perhaps the more natural transition from a non e-powered bike, with the Bosch I can ride all day in Eco or Trail where I needed extra boost from the Shimano. The Brose wasn't bad, but stripping a belt at 600k made me unhappy and I wasn't prepared to have it happen again when I was way out in the wilderness.
Saying that, Cycletime was absolutely brilliant with providing a loaner bike and having my bike back in very quick time -would recommend them at the drop of a hat.
Saying that, Cycletime was absolutely brilliant with providing a loaner bike and having my bike back in very quick time -would recommend them at the drop of a hat.
I'm not sure your logic makes any sense in the real world. For starters your experience is with commuter bikes running 40t chainrings (or 48 if you've changed it as you were going to), so you're not riding the bikes in a way which is comparable to most other people on the forum .
Secondly, you're complaining that you wouldn't buy another Bosch bike - because when you ILLEGALLY tamper with the motor, you pick up error messages. You blame this on Bosch - who are only complying with the law. For general reference, most people successfully de-restrict the bosch with the volspeed and the majority of people have no problems. Whereas the badass and speedbox often give a lot more issues.
Thirdly, Shimano's motor/battery side, will generally do ANYTHING they can to avoid dealing with warranty issues. If they even think you've used a third party software just to look at your settings, they will refuse to warranty your broken motor. Anyone who has ridden a mountain bike with either an E7000,E8000 or EP8 motor will know that if you're looking mainly for power, these are generally the weakest options available. They're also normally about 30% down on range compared to Bosch for example.
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