In real life how long before we need a new battery?

[1oldfart]

I was at a shop that mainly sells Yamaha/Giant and Bosch/Trek.
I heard a saleperson say it is good for 1,000 recharges so if 100/year
it should be good for 10 years. This sounds too much.

 

[Mabman]

It is another one of those things that is too hard to quantify due to how a battery is used/recharged/temp controlled over time?

 

[steve_sordy]

I have heard the 1000 charges claim many times from different people and in different places and media; never seen it challenged.

I have only ever had a Shimano set up and currently have a 630Whr battery with the EP8 motor. It said 105m in Eco, but is already down to 103m after just over 1000 miles. However, if I use it in Trail alone, with the occasional Boost, and flog it to death on my usual ride, I'll get 24 miles out of it. If I assume that all my ride will be the same, then I will get 24000 miles out of the battery.

But what then? I remember reading the voluminous paperback sized documents that came with my first emtb. It said that after 1000 charges the battery would still have 80% of its charge! Try finding that statement anywhere on a current Shimano website! Have they lost confidence in their product?

Looking back at the bikes I have had, I seem to have averaged 1200 miles per year (I don't commute and avoid tarmac whenever possible), but that has risen since I bought ebikes and I'm now doing 1350m/year (ish).

So, 24,000 miles may last me almost 18 years. (And maybe still have 80% range left in it, who knows?)

But the longest time I have had a main bike is 3 years (I'm not counting my first hardtail that I had for a long time. )

 

[RustyIron]

But the longest time I have had a main bike is 3 years

I'm trying to think of this "battery problem" the same way. Long before this battery craps out, I'll be riding a new bike with 50% more battery capacity, 50% more travel, and 50% lighter.

 

[SquireRides]

When I did the math(s), I think I worked out the battery may start to degrade a noticeable amount at around 10,000 miles. Which is a lot, IMHO. I'd probably be thinking about a new bike by then.

 

[Stihldog]

So I’ll probably be safe to add the battery to the kids inheritance as long as I stay below 4,000 km per year.

I recharge every time I return from a ride. A full charge usually fluctuates between 98% and 100%. Maybe I’m lucky so far and I think I have 10k+ km after 2+ years. I’ve only drained the battery once.

 

[Chris ledger]

I did 2500 miles on my e8000 with a 504wh battery software showed its efficiency was down to 85 percent so very much doubt the 1000 charge statement

 

[flash]

Shimano stated the battery would last to 60% charge after 1000 cycles. But that depends on so many factors it's almost impossible to state accurately. Temperature, charge speed and storage state all have an effect plus a dozen other things. You also can't believe what the bike app reports as battery health, unfortunately. It's OK to see very large drops in a short space of time (warranty purposes) but accurate it is not.

My first eMTB (picked up Aug 2018) is still running strong after around 7000km. Being reasonably careful with storage and charging but not obsessive and I don't see why it won't keep going for another couple of years with no issues.

Gordon

 

[Alexbn921]

Batteries die like the shocks on your car. Slowly. You don't really notice until you compare to new parts.

500-1000 cycles is the standard right now. Abuse it and you can get less. Take care you can get more.

The range is huge for a reason. Take a house plant for example. Some people can keep them forever and others it dies right away. Plan accordingly.

 

[Growmac]

My Shimano 504 Wh battery is at 78% health after 60 cycles. Hard to be precise as I have a second battery, but that was probably about 2,500 km. I always bring the battery indoors, store it at about 60% charge, and charge it to full on the day of the ride.

It has been run to completely flat many times since the health has deteriorated, which surely can't help, but the last 40% of charge only lasts a few km, 10 at most, and there's no reserve any more.

I'm not an outlier. The BT-E8035 batteries all do this, there's a thread on here somewhere, and the new battery I got is on the same trajectory. Madison are not interested (allegedly 73% in 2 years is the magic number). I won't buy Shimano again.

 

[1oldfart]

I am no expert but i have been reading to learn for 3 years. I find it strange that no answer stand out like it is probably the right answer. I get that with different weight, elevation etc... we get different distance from a charge. I get that being more or less carefull the usefull life will vary. But from memory i think it was agreed that when it is down to 69% from the original it is time to replace it. Not only we have 30% less potential distance but it will empty faster so a **full charge** might give us only 50% of the range we used to get. That means from the 1000 technicaly potential charges we get to use the first 300. So if a rider charges 150 per year after 2 years it is time for a new one.

 

[steve_sordy]

................I won't buy Shimano again.

Is that because the battery doesn't last as well as you expected (they are all Lithium ion), or because of Shimano (Madison)'s attitude to warranty service? Or both!

 

[steve_sordy]

.........................I recharge every time I return from a ride. A full charge usually fluctuates between 98% and 100%. Maybe I’m lucky so far and I think I have 10k+ km after 2+ years. I’ve only drained the battery once.

My first emtb (2019) came with paperback sized documentation for the bike and the battery/motor combo. It very clearly stated that the battery should be run down to the red every six months or so. That surprised me because modern Lithium-ion batteries do not suffer from the hysteresis effect. On my first bike I ran the battery down to flat soon after I bought the bike but never did it again, or even to the red. On my current bike (2021) I get down to the red on a regular basis, but I have never gone down to flat (which I believe is not good for the battery). So far, neither history has done any harm to the battery that I can detect.

 

[Growmac]

Is that because the battery doesn't last as well as you expected (they are all Lithium ion), or because of Shimano (Madison)'s attitude to warranty service? Or both!

They are all li-ion, obviously, but there certainly seems to be an issue with the battery management on this particular battery.

The broader point is far more important to me. I've watched my friends get excellent, fast warranty support from Bosch, even for seemingly minor issues. Meanwhile Madison have shrugged off the battery issues and refused to do anything to sort the motor error codes. I'm now out of warranty with a motor I know is likely to fail shortly (intermittent E010 torque sensor and wheel position sensor errors - I have a multi-page report from the LBS listing them, and a reply from Madison that can be summarised as ).

I'll take the hint and go where I'll be supported next time.

 

[Gary]

I was at a shop that mainly sells Yamaha/Giant and Bosch/Trek.
I heard a saleperson say it is good for 1,000 recharges so if 100/year
it should be good for 10 years. This sounds too much.

Shop salesperson is just quoting what he's read/been told.
It's not accurate at all.
This is my battery health after 3 years and over 10000miles

TBH I don't think this is bad at all for the use it's seen with absolutely no care taken over storage charge level.
As for the salesperson's claim. Even if it were true it'd be physically impossible for most customers to manage 1000 full charge cycles within the 2 Yr warranty period anyway.
There's absolutely no way my battery will still be useable after another 750 charge cycles.
Batteries degrade with use.
Just deal with it though!
Ie. Budget for a new battery every few years if you're a high mileage/use rider

 

[steve_sordy]

...............

The broader point is far more important to me. I've watched my friends get excellent, fast warranty support from Bosch, even for seemingly minor issues. Meanwhile Madison have shrugged off the battery issues and refused to do anything to sort the motor error codes. I'm now out of warranty with a motor I know is likely to fail shortly (intermittent E010 torque sensor and wheel position sensor errors - I have a multi-page report from the LBS listing them, and a reply from Madison that can be summarised as ).

I'll take the hint and go where I'll be supported next time.

With service like that I am not at all surprised!

With the widespread criticism of Shimano motors not being serviceable (they are partly, but with key components that cannot be purchased), I decided after my first e8000 bike (Focus Jam2) not to buy another bike with a Shimano motor. Not because I'd had any problems, but to vote with my wallet. Sadly, the next bike I wanted (and more importantly last year, could actually buy) had a Shimano EP8 motor. I have always liked the way the Shimano motor delivers the power, from the very first time I rode a bike that had one. So, with only a small regret, I bought my Merida eOne-Sixty. Still very happy with it, so far. Maybe next time I will vote with my wallet; but will I have a choice?

 

[Growmac]

Yeah, I'm on a 2020 Merida e160 too and it's a lovely bike. It's noticeably less powerful than my mate's Bosch bikes since Bosch upped the power on them last year though.

 

[1oldfart]

I am no expert but i have been reading to learn for 3 years. I find it strange that no answer stand out like it is probably the right answer. I get that with different weight, elevation etc... we get different distance from a charge. I get that being more or less carefull the usefull life will vary. But from memory i think it was agreed that when it is down to 69% from the original it is time to replace it. Not only we have 30% less potential distance but it will empty faster so a **full charge** might give us only 50% of thr range we used to get. That means from the 1000 technicaly potential charges we get to use the first 300. So if a rider charges 150 per year after 2 years it is time for a new one.

Shop salesperson is just quoting what he's read/been told.
It's not accurate at all.
This is my battery health after 3 years and over 10000miles
View attachment 82238
TBH I don't think this is bad at all for the use it's seen with absolutely no care taken over storage charge level.
As for the salesperson's claim. Even if it were true it'd be physically impossible for most customers to manage 1000 full charge cycles within the 2 Yr warranty period anyway.
There's absolutely no way my battery will still be useable after another 750 charge cycles.
Batteries degrade with use.
Just deal with it though!
Ie. Budget for a new battery every few years if you're a high mileage/use rider

Your stats are kind of close to the 300 first charges/cycles are the good ones than plan shorter or invest in a new one.
Being retired i have time to ride a lot so now in winter i average a charge a day with my 500Wh.
Plus i do not have a car so i might order my next Ebike soon to get it and sell this 2021 instead of buying a battery.

 

[Gary]

I won't buy Shimano again.

Good luck with that

 

[Gary]

Your stats are kind of close to the 300 first charges/cycles are the good ones than plan shorter or invest in a new one.
Being retired i have time to ride a lot so now in winter i average a charge a day with my 500Wh.
Plus i do not have a car so i might order my next Ebike soon to get it and sell this 2021 instead of buying a battery.

As per.
Ive no idea what you're actually on about.

 

[Growmac]

Good luck with that

In fairness I'm only talking about the motor, I quite like XT for the drive chain and I'm a big fan of the feel of Shimano brakes.

 

[steve_sordy]

Yeah, I'm on a 2020 Merida e160 too and it's a lovely bike. It's noticeably less powerful than my mate's Bosch bikes since Bosch upped the power on them last year though.

Even before the torque upgrade, the Bosch motor appeared to deliver more torque at lower revs. This is probably why it won the hill climbing test that Rob did, despite having the same max torque as the Shimano motor.

 

[Growmac]

Even before the torque upgrade, the Bosch motor appeared to deliver more torque at lower revs. This is probably why it won the hill climbing test that Rob did, despite having the same max torque as the Shimano motor.

Hard to be sure. There was definitely a step-change in how hard I had to work to keep up on the climbs as soon as mates got the power upgrade. And now they have trail+ as an option as well, I think I'd struggle to justify an EP8 over Bosch.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Even before the torque upgrade, the Bosch motor appeared to deliver more torque at lower revs. This is probably why it won the hill climbing test that Rob did, despite having the same max torque as the Shimano motor.

Torque really is just marketing speak. its pretty meaningless due to there being no standard at how torque is measured (what cadence / gearing etc).

Peak Watts is a probably a better way of comparing motors. Shimano EP8 peaks at 500 Watts (Shimano told me this). Bosch won't say, but on their new batteries, they have a max discharge rate of 900 watts (25A). And I heard (on the grapevine, via a contact) that they put out at least 650 watts. I'd bet at peak they are pushing 800-900 watts.

Motor manufacturers won't advertise watts anywhere though, as they're scared of the whole 250W EU debacle (which really is a load of rubbish as the motor brands are pushing out way more than this).

 

[1oldfart]

As per.
Ive no idea what you're actually on about.

On your post # 15 i read your battery health is 78% after 247 cycles or it lost 22%
if it keeps at the same rate after 300 cycles(charges) your battery health lost might be
26.7%. if at 30% lost or 70% health you choose to replace it to get the range it used to have
that might give you a bit more than the 300 i read somewhere.

 

[Alexbn921]

I expect my Specialize 700wh battery to last at least 1000 cycles to 70%. I ride around 100 days a year.
In the last 5 months I've done 854 miles with no noticeable decrease in range.

The apps reported health is complete and total garbage.

 

[Gary]

I still have no idea why you're fixating on 300 charge cycles.

 

[Gary]

I expect my Specialize 700wh battery to last at least 1000 cycles to 70%. I ride around 100 days a year.
In the last 5 months I've done 854 miles with no noticeable decrease in range.

You do realise 100days riding doesn't equal 100 full charge cycles?
Unless you up your cycling activity markedly 1000 charge cycles is going to take you 12 or so years.

 

[Gary]

Bosch won't say, but on their new batteries, they have a max discharge rate of 900 watts (25A). And I heard (on the grapevine, via a contact) that they put out at least 650 watts. I'd bet at peak they are pushing 800-900 watts.

There's a video somewhere on YouTube of the old Levo being tested and peaking at over 750w

I'd be surprised if the EP8 or E8000 were quite as low as a nice round 500w. But Shimano do like nice tidy info

 

[pmcdonald]

I have a commuter from 2016 that still fires up. Based on range - 40-50 km per full 400W charge - I'm guestimating capacity is sitting around 60 - 70%. Due to a failing hub motor and a few other electrical gremlins it was replaced with a now two year old Giant hybrid commuter. That has been used virtually every week day. 70 charge cycles and 96% capacity. No idea what my e160's battery is sitting on at 600 km - I just have the cheap 5003 display with no connectivity. As Cypher said, ignorance is bliss!

I think in most cases the battery will outlive the effective lifespan of the bike, if you're happy to make do with a 10, 20, 30% reduction in range long term. Charge up, ride hard, don't stress.